I just discovered that Radical Reviewer believes the western account of the 1932 Ukranian famine, and I could not be more disappointed.
I just discovered that Radical Reviewer believes the western account of the 1932 Ukranian famine, and I could not be more disappointed.
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It wasn't only them but they could've hold them back if the Bolsheviks leave them be instead purging them and then leaving since they were doing that long before their conflict started.
Makhno did not accomplish anything
he's beatified in a way comporting with Western anti-communism, not in a historically or functionally accurate manner
In this same way Emma Goldman was only ever published in 1920s because of anti-USSR sentiment. Not because "anarchism" is interesting
And while Makhno himself may not have technically "ordered" or even approved of pogroms. Anarchist groups did carry them out
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq153D1XYAElHIP?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpGKG7_W8AA0irL?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpGKHrJXEAEUr44?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq14CdiWMAQSeKB?format=png&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpGFGJXXcAEgiDZ?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpGFG-DW4AEcIhi?format=jpg&name=large
Makhno would have had no bearing on disempowering the greedy kulaks & moving the state of productive forces forward here
Hmm, this comment reeks of good faith. :)
are you suggesting that your blaming the 1930s Ukraine famine on Makhno destroying property and acting like a bandit(events occurring over a decade apart) was done in good faith?
What are you talking about lol
the Ukraine famine happened in the 1930s & Makhno's MGTOW rebellion was put down in 1921
Makhno's "communes" were never very successful and few in the countryside ever participated
so you're simply engaging in wishful thinking & trying to pump up & obscure Makhno's history of banditry & warlordism
If you're using 4 lines cut out of books by Arshinov or cite Skirda (who took back vbasically every negative stuff about Makhno when he was confronted about it), at least read the whole thing.
I still don't see where i was talking about the famine here.
OP & entire thread was about the famine, what do you mean?
your bringing up Makhno & defending his warlordism and banditry here at all is deflection & hand-waving on its face
"The USSR fucking over and slaughtering the Ukranian anarchists and allowing the bourgeoisie to reclaim the territory is enough to justify the Ukranians not cooperating with the USSR."
Makhno's warlordism & idiotic wrecking of equipment and trains is not something to simp for here, bubba
It is absolutely something to simp in any serious socialist site,
not at all
yes at all
no, Makhno was all-in-all a wrecker & counterrevolutionary
Nah, he wasn't. But now that i know that you're coming at him from a guy's critique who uses sources biased towards the whites, i'm not surprised you say that.
nah, I am coming at Makhno from Lucy Parsons' POV, who bodied Emma Goldman's idiot elitist ass, and had real impact on American radical tradition
Parsons again disagrees with Goldman’s privileged & aloof anti-communism, "After telling that the Russian revolution was doomed at its birth, fought by united capitalism of all countries, she tries to show that it was only the Marxian policies that weakened the strength of the revolution. Not entirely satisfied with this statement, which she knew to be false when she wrote it, she adds, “Counter-revolutionists, Right-Social-Revolutionaries, Cadets, and Mensheviks were the disrupting internal forces against Russia.” She could have also truthfully said, “Anarchists of the Mahkno school, leader of the bandits,” of which Emma seems to be a warm disciple. Something more will be said of the viciousness of this type of anarchist. Miss Goldman quotes from somewhere, “It was not against the Russian people, but against the Bolsheviks—they have instigated the revolution, and they must be exterminated.” This is given as the hypocritical attitude of the interventionists, but I ask if it is not exactly the thing she had in her heart to do with her miserable malignant stories. "
*yawn
so you're going to worship Makhno strictly on the basis that he was an anti-Bolshevik
typical Western anti-communism
that's not leftism, bubba... and Makhnovism in practice wasn't either
Can you point out where the fuck did i do that?
I'm literally from the Eastern Bloc.
*yawn
what does being from Eastern Europe have to do with believing Western anti-communist lies or not? don't take it so personally hehe. it's all the same ahistorical revisionism, doesn't matter where you're from. Cold War anti-communism informs "anti-authoritarian" busy bodied nattering no matter where you go.
you can "asterisk yawn" all you want, but you're proving my point that you're not here in good faith, and merely wish to pimp a false historiography about what "could've" been if only more than a few highly educated & well-positioned families took Makhno's nonsense seriously
Calling every account that speaks positively of Makhno hagiographic is totally not ahistorical and not bad faithed.
All i did here was pointing out that anarchists could've handled the kulaks if they weren't slaughtered since they did that already. You were the one coming in with boring shit that was debunked decades ago attacking me for nothing with fucking Twitter screenshots.
I'm all about having a honest discussion about Makhno, but you proved you won't be the person i'll have it with here.
anarchists couldn't handle kulaks, and kulaks weren't "slaughtered", they were just declassed
they are screenshots and quotes of actual scholarly articles & published sources both printed at the time and recently... you haven't brought any scholarly or primary source material to bear here, just vague hand-waving & "*yawn" and no real credible information to back up your strange misconceptions about USSR history.
You don't want actual discussion about Makhno, you just want to believe in him as some inviolate alternative to the boogieman of USSR
Arshinov is fucking primary source material, it's not my fault you haven't read a word of him.
What i use = actual primary infallible sources with very credible information
What you use = Anticommunist slander
Yeah i want actual discussion but you're still not wanting to have any. That's unfortunate.
Arshinov is the one who can't help but overexaggerate the "importance" of Makhno & only writes glowingly
all you have is Arshinov's idiotic hagiography of Makhno. Makhno and Arshinov both in reality were clowns. In no way is Arshinov's biased effusive Makhno fanfic infallible or completely credible
This is how even-handed & unbiased Arshinov is in his recounting the history: "The Makhnovshchina is a colossal event in contemporary Russia. By the breadth and profundity of its ideas, it transcends all the spontaneous working class movements known to us"
Give me a break lol
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpGFFNaW8AAsRZ4?format=png&name=medium
Arshinov's work is the original beatifying propaganda I am referring to lol. Others also reference it as such
Arshinov can't even keep his own contradictions straight.
At one point Arshinov says: "It must be noted that, like vast and spontaneous peasant insurrections which rise without any preparation, these organized guerrilla actions were always performed by the peasants themselves, with no help or direction from any political organization" and then no more than a paragraph later he says.... "The most important role in this effort at unification and in the general development of the revolutionary insurrection in the south of the Ukraine was played by the insurrectionary detachment guided by a peasant native to the region, Nestor Makhno"
That's not just a hypocritical and confounded untruth, it's silly
I will quote another primary source documentation of the period from the perspective of an anarchist again in Lucy Parsons: "The “anarchist” Mahkno is mentioned by Emma Goldman as a friend and sending food to Kropotkin. In a diary of Fedora-Gianko, the wife of Mahkno, are recorded facts and dates to show that these marauders were guilty of arson, train-wrecking, murder, robbery, all committed against the Soviet Government. By them workers were killed, villages destroyed, bridges blown up, wrecks caused by wild engines turned loose against approaching trains until Mahkno was driven from the country. This kind of work against the Soviet Government meets with the approval of Miss Goldman. Her heart was never with the Bolshevik revolution. Compelled to leave the United States, she came to Russia as there was no other place to which she could go. Friends have not cut her off; she has excommunicated herself. "
"What i use = actual primary infallible sources with very credible information
What you use = Anticommunist slander"
Lucy Parsons as primary source. Ok.
In no way is Arshinov’s biased effusive Makhno fanfic infallible or completely credible
Lucy Parsons lived during the time and visited Russia in this period. She published this scathing dismissal of Goldman in 1922 a year before Arshinov's book was published... making Parsons' writing even more of a primary source lmfao
Oh she visited Russia, that's fine, she was probably very well versed in life there then.
"What i use = actual primary infallible sources with very credible information
What you use = Anticommunist slander"
yes, she was... at least far more than the elitist radlib Goldman was
"It is to be regretted that Emma could not have visited Sparrow’s Hill, and seen there the thousands of children, boys and girls, robust and rugged, rosy-cheeked and beautiful in their remarkable collective exercise. Or have spent days at Pushkino, or some of the many hundreds of similar communities throughout Russia, where the summer homes of the bourgeoisie are turned into children’s colonies. At one of these homes I saw between forty and fifty of these little tots just after their bath, romping and frollicking, laughing and full of glee, a sight that would please the heart of almost any man or woman. Too bad that Miss Goldman could not have visited the Moscow River within the environs of the city, where on summer days anyone could see the naked boys and girls at play enjoying a plunge in the water. She should have met the children that Mary Heaton Vorse had temporarily adopted while here. Little Demitrus and his friends would have been other laughing children to her credit. It is a great loss to think that she did not visit Children’s Town. There the babes are learning, as they do in play, the advantage of association and solidarity. It is possible that Miss Goldman might have learnt, even from the little ones, that rules of order, discipline and self-government are the essentials of a socialised community. Miss Goldman would mention in the same breath men of such splendid character and attributes as Lunaraharsky and Gorky, comparing them with that crooked little politician, Judge Linsay, who conducted the juvenile Court in Denver, Colorado, and who only by the efforts of the officials of the Western Federation of Miners was prevented from sending little boys, who for delinquency were dealt with in his court, to work in the beet fields of Colorado, there to take the place of Russian emigrants who seasonally migrated from industrial centres for that work."
sounds like Arshninov and Emma just have a touch of Russophobia lol, which isn't really all that surprising considering
again, I notice you don't quote from any of these works, and still aren't bringing much to bear here other than personal sideways remarks & temperamental deflection
Emma Goldman the Russophobe russian.
"What i use = actual primary infallible sources with very credible information
What you use = Anticommunist slander"
she was born in an Orthdox Jewish family in modern day Lithuania, but keep deflecting lmfao
Being born in an Orthodox Jewish family is bad.
is that how you really feel?
No, but it would be just as stupid as calling Goldman a russophobe.
she is listed as a Jewish-Lithuanian most places I read about her. She was taught within Prussian education system to hate Russia and admits in her anti-USSR screed that "My Russian at this time was halting"
and I was more speaking about the Ukrainian Arshinov's hint of Russophobia in his writings, recall that I said I detected a HINT. Also Emma Goldman similarly takes quite a dismissive attitude toward Bolsheviks despite her also admitting they fed orphaned children & did much in the way toward righting the wrongs of the Tsarist period.
Goldman literally admits to growing up hating Russia and Russian culture "Under the discipline of a Germanschool in Königsberg and the Prussian attitude toward everything Russian, I had grown up in the atmosphere of hatred to that country. I dreaded especially the terrible Nihilists who had killed Tsar Alexander II, so good and kind, as I had been taught. St. Petersburg was to me an evil thing"
Though she admits to growing spiritually in later years, and through all her talks & history as an activist appears to take stands for these nations from a Western vantage, Emma just can't seem to hide her elitism & underhanded dismissal of USSR & Russian attempts to socially & economically & politically address its own issues
"I began to suspect that the reason for much of the evil was also within Russia, not only outside of it.But then, I argued, police officials and detectives graft everywhere. That is the common disease ofthe breed. In Russia, where scarcity of food and three years of starvation must needs turn mostpeople into grafters, theft is inevitable."
"After showing us about, Zorin invited us to the Smolny dining room. The meal consisted of goodsoup, meat and potatoes, bread and tea--rather a good meal in starving Russia, I thought. "
I suspect she never really outgrew some of her kneejerk Russophobia from her childhood
what's important today is how these historiographies are used to demonize USSR/communism generally and Russia specifically.
Makhno is often lifted up by Ukrainian nationalist historians and his name invoked in their desperate attempts to demonize Soviet history.
ok
okay
The ukrainian peasants opportunistically supported Makhno because they thought he'd not conscript or requisition their grain like the Bolsheviks had to, and that they would get to keep their land without being subservient to the bourgeoise like the white army wanted.
But once War Communism began to end and Makhno had started doing the exact same shit as the Red army by necessity they stopped giving a fuck, there is no correlation between Makhno getting victory royaled and kulaks burning their grain and cattle.