I just discovered that Radical Reviewer believes the western account of the 1932 Ukranian famine, and I could not be more disappointed.

    • CoralMarks [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      You are working under the assumption that anarchist communes couldn't federate with each other to defend a wider territory.

      Although, I have to admit I wouldn't call myself the best read, but I think the communes in Spain should give an example of such things being totally possible and actually working quite well.

      During the Spanish Civil War, workers in occupied factories coordinated an entire wartime economy. Anarchist organizations that had been instrumental in bringing about the revolution, namely the CNT labor union, often provided the foundations for the new society. Especially in the industrial city of Barcelona, the CNT lent the structure for running a worker-controlled economy — a task for which it had been preparing years in advance. Each factory organized itself with its own chosen technical and administrative workers; factories in the same industry in every locality organized into the Local Federation of their particular industry; all the Local Federations of a locality organized themselves into a Local Economic Council “in which all the centers of production and services were represented”; and the local Federations and Councils organized into parallel National Federations of Industry and National Economic Federations.[49]

      The Barcelona congress of all Catalan collectives, on August 28, 1937, provides an example of their coordinating activities and decisions. The collectivized shoe factories needed 2 million pesetas credit. Because of a shortage of leather, they had to cut down on hours, though they still paid all their workers full time salaries. The Economic Council studied the situation, and reported that there was no surplus of shoes. The congress agreed to grant credit to purchase leather and to modernize the factories in order to lower the prices of the shoes. Later, the Economic Council outlined plans to build an aluminum factory, which was necessary for the war effort. They had located available materials, secured the cooperation of chemists, engineers, and technicians, and decided to raise the money through the collectives. The congress also decided to mitigate urban unemployment by working out a plan with agricultural workers to bring new areas into cultivation with the help of unemployed workers from the cities.

      Or take the example of Native Americans resisting their colonizers:

      Even more impressive than the example provided by the Makhnovists is the victory won by several indigenous nations in 1868. In a two year war, thousands of warriors from the Lakota and Cheyenne nations defeated the US military and destroyed several army forts during what became known as Red Cloud’s War. In 1866, the Lakota met with the US government at Fort Laramie because the latter wanted permission to build a military trail through the Powder River country to facilitate the influx of white settlers who were seeking gold. The US military had already defeated the Arapaho in its attempt to open the area for white settlers, but they had been unable to defeat the Lakota. During the negotiations it became apparent that the US government had already started the process of building military forts along this trail, without even having secured permission for the trail itself. The Oglala Lakota war chief Red Cloud promised to resist any white attempts to occupy the area. Nonetheless in the summer of 1866 the US military began sending more troops to the region and constructing new forts. Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho warriors following the direction of Red Cloud began a campaign of guerrilla resistance, effectively closing down the Bozeman trail and harassing the troops stationed in the forts. The military sent down the order for an aggressive winter campaign, and on December 21, when their wood train was attacked yet again, an army of about one hundred US soldiers decided to pursue. They met a decoy party including the Oglala warrior Crazy Horse and took the bait. The entire force was defeated and killed by a force of 1,000–3,000 warriors that waited in ambush. The commanding officer of the white soldiers was knifed to death in hand to hand combat. The Lakota left a young bugle boy who fought with just his bugle covered in a buffalo robe as a sign of honor — with such acts the indigenous warriors demonstrated the possibility of a much more respectful form of warfare, in contrast with the white soldiers and settlers who often cut out fetuses from pregnant women and used the amputated genitals of unarmed victims as tobacco pouches.

      In the summer of 1867 US troops with new repeating rifles fought the Lakota to a standstill in two battles, but they failed to carry out any successful offensives. In the end, they asked for peace talks, which Red Cloud said he would only grant if the new military forts were abandoned. The US government agreed, and in the peace talks they recognized the rights of the Lakota to the Black Hills and Powder River country, a huge area currently occupied by the states of North Dakota, South Dakota, and Montana.

      During the war, the Lakota and Cheyenne organized without coercion or military discipline. But contrary to the typical dichotomies, their relative lack of hierarchy did not hamper their ability for organization. On the contrary, they held together during a brutal war on the basis of a collective, self-motivated discipline and varying forms of organization. In a Western army, the most important unit is the military police or the officer who walks behind the troops, pistol loaded and ready to shoot anyone who turns and runs. The Lakota and Cheyenne had no need for discipline imposed from above. They were fighting to defend their land and way of life, in groups bound by kinship and affinity.

      Some fighting groups were structured with a chain of command, while others operated in a more collective fashion, but all of them voluntarily rallied around individuals with the best organizational abilities, spiritual power, and combat experience. These war chiefs did not control those who followed them so much as inspire them. When morale was low or a fight looked hopeless, groups of warriors often went home, and they were always free to do so. If a chief declared war, he had to go, but no one else did, so a leader who could not convince anyone to follow him to war was engaging in an embarrassing and even suicidal venture. In contrast, politicians and generals in Western society frequently start unpopular wars, and they are never the ones to suffer the consequences.

      The warrior societies played an important role in the indigenous organization of warfare, but women’s societies were vital as well. They played a role similar to that of the Quartermaster in Western armies, provisioning food and materials, except that where the Quartermaster is a simple cog obeying orders, the Lakota and Cheyenne women would refuse to cooperate if they disagreed with the reasons for a war. Considering that one of Napoleon’s most important contributions to European warfare was the insight that “an army marches on its stomach,” it becomes apparent that Lakota and Cheyenne women exercised more power in the affairs of their nations than the histories written by men and white people would lead us to believe. Additionally, women who chose to could fight alongside the men.

      Despite being impossibly outnumbered by the US military and white settler paramilitaries, the Native Americans won. After Red Cloud’s War, the Lakota and Cheyenne enjoyed nearly a decade of autonomy and peace. Contrary to pacifist allegations about militant resistance, the victors did not begin oppressing one another or creating uncontrollable cycles of violence just because they had violently fought off the white invaders. They won themselves several years of freedom and peace.

      FYI the quotes are from Gelderloos' "Anarchy Works".

      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        but in the case of Ukraine we only need to look at what actually happened with these anarchist "communes"... practically no one participated

        so the Makhno tales have always been overblown. and while he did contribute to defeating the White army, the average peasant wanted nothing to do with this project

        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpGFGJXXcAEgiDZ?format=jpg&name=large

        • DivineChaos100 [none/use name]
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          4 years ago

          If no one participated how the fuck could they organize an army that held out for years against the Red army and the whites?

          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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            4 years ago

            practically no one participated in the communes... are you reading the link I provided correctly?

            and it's not as though Makhno really held out against the Reds, at least not after Trotsky moved against Makhno

            • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
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              4 years ago

              The black army was more like the green armies just with an anarchist figurehead, the peasantry that were Makhnos power base supported him as a centre position between the whites and the reds and mostly didnt care for his commune shit. The workers in his territory were ignored and neglected, which Makhno advicing that poor railway workers who needed wages for food should try and hold up and extort a toll from passing red trains, full of soldiers.

              • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                4 years ago

                Makhno destroyed trains & wrecked equipment that needed to be be preserved

                this is largely why figures like Kropotkin advocated for the nascent Soviet states & criticized anarchists in their overzealous actions& lack of foresight

                • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
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                  4 years ago

                  It's honestly amazing that people still idolize Makhno, he's practically a mythical figure at this point with no possible connection to the man himself or the armies he led, a construct of left-anticommunists who need a martyr that would have done everything absolutely correct if those devilish Communists just hadn't betrayed him for their own power.

                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                    4 years ago

                    this is why anarchism as such is ultimately an insect reared in the nest of socialism, just as destructive in the medium term to the aims of the Left as are SuccDems

                    This is an SLP publishing in 1901 talking about a bourgeois German newspaper in Chicago at the time:

                    "That German capitalist paper, with its intimate knowledge of European matters, counseled the State to “rear the Anarchist insect in the nests of Socialism to devour the Socialist eggs”.... "The European “Anarchist,” accordingly, turns his whole effort towards destroying. But destroying what? The Capitalist System? No! Such destruction, being constructive in its nature, implies virility. Hatred, malevolence and envy are attributes of degeneracy. The degenerate never tackles the strong: he tackles the weak. Capitalist Society being powerful, he leaves it substantially alone: the camp of Socialism, having to be raised under the fire of the enemy, is exposed and substantially weak. The Anarchist, accordingly, turns his face against Socialism."

                    I don't approve of the term "degenerate", but it's interesting to see that these strains existed even 120 years ago

                    • CoralMarks [he/him]
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                      4 years ago

                      The assertion that anarchists don't even want to destroy capitalism or private property is completely wrong. Of course anarchists want to do exactly that and then establish a community based on socialist principles, like mutual aid and absolute solidarity.

                      Honestly, if I hadn't recently started reading more anarchist theory I would've probably written something like your reply as well, either describing anarchists as naive utopians at best and wreckers at worst, but please for the love of god just pick up any book. Something basic and introductory like "Anarchy Works" from Gelderloos does a great job of explaining anarchism or something from Kropotkin like "Mutual Aid" or "Conquest of Bread" and you will at least begin to understand where anarchists are coming from. You don't have to agree but this vitriol is totally unnecessary.

                      I have no problem with having different opinions on how this or that is best achieved or whatever but describing each other as insects is just disgusting language, I wouldn't say anything about it if it was just in that quote there, but that you would refer to your fellow comrades here like this is a bit disappointing I have to say.

                      Here is just the introduction to "Anarchy Works", maybe despite everything, you might find it interesting:

                      spoiler

                      Anarchy Would Never Work

                      Anarchism is the boldest of revolutionary social movements to emerge from the struggle against capitalism — it aims for a world free from all forms of domination and exploitation. But at its heart is a simple and convincing proposition: people know how to live their own lives and organize themselves better than any expert could. Others cynically claim that people do not know what is in their best interests, that they need a government to protect them, that the ascension of some political party could somehow secure the interests of all members of society. Anarchists counter that decision-making should not be centralized in the hands of any government, but instead power should be decentralized: that is to say, each person should be the center of society, and all should be free to build the networks and associations they need to meet their needs in common with others.

                      The education we receive in state-run schools teaches us to doubt our ability to organize ourselves. This leads many to conclude anarchy is impractical and utopian: it would never work. On the contrary, anarchist practice already has a long record, and has often worked quite well. The official history books tell a selective story, glossing over the fact that all the components of an anarchist society have existed at various times, and innumerable stateless societies have thrived for millennia.

                      How would an anarchist society compare to statist and capitalist societies? It is apparent that hierarchical societies work well according to certain criteria. They tend to be extremely effective at conquering their neighbors and securing vast fortunes for their rulers. On the other hand, as climate change, food and water shortages, market instability, and other global crises intensify, hierarchical models are not proving to be particularly sustainable. The histories in this book show that an anarchist society can do much better at enabling all its members to meet their needs and desires.

                      The many stories, past and present, that demonstrate how anarchy works have been suppressed and distorted because of the revolutionary conclusions we might draw from them. We can live in a society with no bosses, masters, politicians, or bureaucrats; a society with no judges, no police, and no criminals, no rich or poor; a society free of sexism, homophobia, and transphobia; a society in which the wounds from centuries of enslavement, colonialism, and genocide are finally allowed to heal. The only things stopping us are the prisons, programming, and paychecks of the powerful, as well as our own lack of faith in ourselves.

                      Of course, anarchists do not have to be practical to a fault. If we ever win the freedom to run our own lives, we’ll probably come up with entirely new approaches to organization that improve on these tried and true forms. So let these stories be a starting point, and a challenge. What exactly is anarchism?

                      Volumes have been written in answer to this question, and millions of people have dedicated their lives to creating, expanding, defining, and fighting for anarchy. There are countless paths to anarchism and countless beginnings: workers in 19th century Europe fighting against capitalism and believing in themselves instead of the ideologies of authoritarian political parties; indigenous peoples fighting colonization and reclaiming their traditional, horizontal cultures; high school students waking up to the depth of their alienation and unhappiness; mystics from China one thousand years ago or from Europe five hundred years ago, Daoists or Anabaptists, fighting against government and organized religion; women rebelling against the authoritarianism and sexism of the Left. There is no Central Committee giving out membership cards, and no standard doctrine. Anarchy means different things to different people. However, here are some basic principles most anarchists agree on.

                      Autonomy and Horizontality: All people deserve the freedom to define and organize themselves on their own terms. Decision-making structures should be horizontal rather than vertical, so no one dominates anyone else; they should foster power to act freely rather than power over others. Anarchism opposes all coercive hierarchies, including capitalism, the state, white supremacy, and patriarchy.

                      Mutual Aid: People should help one another voluntarily; bonds of solidarity and generosity form a stronger social glue than the fear inspired by laws, borders, prisons, and armies. Mutual aid is neither a form of charity nor of zero-sum exchange; both giver and receiver are equal and interchangeable. Since neither holds power over the other, they increase their collective power by creating opportunities to work together.

                      Voluntary Association: People should be free to cooperate with whomever they want, however they see fit; likewise, they should be free to refuse any relationship or arrangement they do not judge to be in their interest. Everyone should be able to move freely, both physically and socially. Anarchists oppose borders of all kinds and involuntary categorization by citizenship, gender, or race.

                      Direct Action: It is more empowering and effective to accomplish goals directly than to rely on authorities or representatives. Free people do not request the changes they want to see in the world; they make those changes.

                      Revolution: Today’s entrenched systems of repression cannot be reformed away. Those who hold power in a hierarchical system are the ones who institute reforms, and they generally do so in ways that preserve or even amplify their power. Systems like capitalism and white supremacy are forms of warfare waged by elites; anarchist revolution means fighting to overthrow these elites in order to create a free society.

                      Self-Liberation: “The liberation of the workers is the duty of the workers themselves,” as the old slogan goes. This applies to other groups as well: people must be at the forefront of their own liberation. Freedom cannot be given; it must be taken.

                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                        4 years ago

                        Again, I was quoting an SLP publication from 1901, and I was not using that language against anyone as such. I said that "anarchism" without qualification or further clarification is and always has been a disastrous & destructive counterproductive undertow within leftism at worst. And in the short-term it's a purposeful swamp light and diversionary tactic at best. Lofty & noble to think about, but far more contradictory & dependent on weird niche community fandoms than ML states. Anti-communist anarchists are still just anti-communists.... there's not really much to discuss beyond that.

                        The point is to see that this language isn't anything new, and these tensions don't belong totally to us or to this moment. Anarchists who want to help defeat communists can go ahead call themselves "leftists", but we get into some seriously counterproductive and counterrevolutionary territory when "tankies" become the prime target for these "self-identified" anarcho-socdem whatevers.

                        States & jurisprudential authority and organizational methods of hierarchical/knowledge-based expertise will still be absolutely necessary in the medium term. We can't forget that or side-step or put it off til after the cops & imperialists & capitalist-funded death squads just suddenly "give up" because the anarchists are just too "principled" and logically compelling to crush outright.

                        Kropotkin had much the same criticism of anarchists' tendency to criticize communists & revolutionaries far more than they plan to engage in the work of rebuilding after capitalists & imperialists have been ousted. Kropotkin says “We anarchists have talked much about the revolution, but how many have ever taken pains to prepare for the actual work during & after the revolution? The Russian Revolution has demonstrated the imperativeness of such preparation of practical reconstructive work”

                        Lucy Parsons was a noted anarchist & communist & socialist & committed revolutionary who never backed down & always stood for these positions at key points. Parsons again disagrees with Goldman's privileged & aloof anti-communism, "After telling that the Russian revolution was doomed at its birth, fought by united capitalism of all countries, she tries to show that it was only the Marxian policies that weakened the strength of the revolution. Not entirely satisfied with this statement, which she knew to be false when she wrote it, she adds, “Counter-revolutionists, Right-Social-Revolutionaries, Cadets, and Mensheviks were the disrupting internal forces against Russia.” She could have also truthfully said, “Anarchists of the Mahkno school, leader of the bandits,” of which Emma seems to be a warm disciple. Something more will be said of the viciousness of this type of anarchist. Miss Goldman quotes from somewhere, “It was not against the Russian people, but against the Bolsheviks—they have instigated the revolution, and they must be exterminated.” This is given as the hypocritical attitude of the interventionists, but I ask if it is not exactly the thing she had in her heart to do with her miserable malignant stories. "

                        "authoritarianism" is a canard, and in this way... especially within Left discourse & historical discussion, left anti-communists act as merely vessels for Cold War propaganda & McCarthyist self-annihilation

                        • CoralMarks [he/him]
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                          4 years ago

                          Again, I was quoting an SLP publication from 1901, and I was not using that language against anyone as such. I said that “anarchism” without qualification or further clarification is and always has been a disastrous & destructive countervailing undertow within leftism at worst. And in the short-term it’s a purposeful swamp light and diversionary tactic at best. Lofty & noble to think about, but far more contradictory & dependent on weird niche community fandoms than ML states. Anti-communist anarchists are still just anti-communists… there’s not really much to discuss beyond that.

                          Then I misunderstood your point, to me it seemed like you were dismissing anarchism and anarchists as a whole, sorry.

                          The rest I think I can mostly agree to except for this part maybe, I'd say I am a bit more optimistic about what people are capable of themselves without needing any high court to tell them what they can and cannot do, what they are allowed to think, and so on and so forth.

                          States & jurisprudential authority and organizational methods of hierarchical/knowledge-based expertise will still be absolutely necessary in the medium term. We can’t forget that or side-step or put it off til after the cops & imperialists & capitalist-funded death squads just suddenly “give up” because the anarchists are just too “principled” and logically compelling to crush outright.

                          Otherwise, what is your opinion on having, in the event of something as monumental of scope as the Russian revolution actually were to happen in the future, would you think there is a possibility for communes(of course based on the principle of AnCom) to exist side-by-side with an ML state and not be crushed by it?

            • DivineChaos100 [none/use name]
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              4 years ago

              Yeah, i read it but i'm more susceptible to believe books that were written by people who were there than 4 line screenshots from Twitter.

              • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                4 years ago

                https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Makhnovshchina_1917_1921.html?id=cMCEnQAACAAJ

                this is the source used... what is your expert criticism of the source? or will you dismiss it out of hand because the warlord Makhno isn't getting his typical hagiography?

                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                    4 years ago

                    yes, and Darch talks shit about the wrecker Makhno in that one too

                    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq4QxxJXUAI27Zu?format=png&name=900x900

                    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq4U2hRXYAEkwGH?format=png&name=900x900

                    all you have is Arshinov's hagiography. We can look at Makhno in a more critical way today lol

          • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
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            4 years ago

            Forced conscriptions, they demanded that peasants join under the excuse that the community had consented to anarchism and as a community volunteered to mobilize, and as such individuals who refused were branded traitors and liable to be punished or flat out summarily executed as sympathizers by the anarchist secret police.

              • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
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                4 years ago

                I have read about Makhno, from literally people who knew him personally like Voline, I should add that him and his men were notorious for gang rape during drunken parties and refused to pay his workers for things like repairing armored cars and running the railways.

      • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
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        4 years ago

        But these examples end in military defeat, and Socialist states have not suffered collapses due to military defeats but instead fought off military threats long term.

        • CoralMarks [he/him]
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          4 years ago

          True, but not because of how they were organized, but because they were severely outnumbered.

          • ferristriangle [he/him]
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            4 years ago

            But what you're calling a federation of autonomous zones fulfills exactly the same role and functions that Marxists call a proletarian state. You're just using a different name.

            When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that's true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world.

            Frederick Engles, On Authority (1872)

      • Blurst_Of_Times [he/him,they/them]
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        4 years ago

        In a two year war, thousands of warriors from the Lakota and Cheyenne nations defeated the US military and destroyed several army forts during what became known as Red Cloud’s War.

        This is where i started McMahon-facing. No wonder we don't learn this stuff in school.