I mean East Turkestan was seized in a period of imperial expansion and ruled from Beijing as a hinterland. Doesn't that mean that Mao should have released control of it? Since he didn't, doesn't that mean the CCP rules over an imperial possession? Making all this shit about stanning China completely ridiculous and hypocritical?
tbf we gotta balkanize the whole world. but i'm not gonna say balkanizing china is better or more preferable or should be done before balkanizing the us and shit.
Imperialism isn't "when a government controls an area." What matters is that something is integrated into the main political system and not just ruled from afar and extracted from. And as far as I know, people in Xinjiang have the same voting rights as everyone else.
Do you have, for example, polling data showing that the majority of the region wants to be autonomous or anything like that?
this is some ridiculous debatebro shit. no I don't have reliable polling data showing how many uighurs want to be autonomous. where the fuck would someone get that?
I'm saying "vocational training" is a thought-terminating euphemism and there is a lot more going on, much of which you might not agree with. Your arguments are only valid if you believe the chinese government 100%, which I don't, and I think anyone would be stupid to.
it's like saying "I need a specific accusation of how DHS is mistreating the kids in cages". You don't throw thousands of people in camps for job training. So how about this:
You do actually need specific accusations if you mean things other than like being put in a place where your movement is restricted is unpleasant, if there is "a lot more going on" you need specific claims of what more is going on because otherwise you dont have anything to back up your argument with.
I'm sorry but after someone said "East Turkmenistan" I'm done with this thread. I don't think anybody here has the slightest idea what they're talking about.
lol goddamn nobody here has any idea what they're talking about do they?
absolutely nowhere in this thread did I say East Turkmenistan, East Turkestan or Uighurstan should be autonomous. I didn't give any suggestions at all. I just said it's fucked up and supporting China in this endeavor is not very leftist.
lol goddamn nobody here has any idea what they’re talking about do they?
You, specifically. It's pretty absurd how you know that terrorism is a legitimate issue in Xinijang and there's absolutely nothing credible suggesting that the Chinese government is doing anything but genuinely attempting to deradicalize and provide vocational training for people afflicted by religious extremism. Yet, you just have some hunch that the spooky Chinese people have to be doing something sinister?
I've actually -- believe it or not -- read some of the cables/documents known as the 'Xinijiang Cables' that Western media flouted as irrevocable 'proof' of 'Uighur Concentration Camps.' Let's look at some of the horrendous excerpts.
In the "combination boxing" and "three battles and one war" struggle to fight against
terrorism and maintain stability, it is a strategic, critical and long-term measure to focus on free
vocational skills education and training for key personnel. In order to thoroughly implement the
relevant decision-making arrangements of the party committee of the autonomous region,
further strengthen and standardize the work of the vocational skill training centers (hereinafter
referred to as ‘training centers’), ensure the absolute safety of the training venue, improve the
quality and efficiency of education and training, maximize education, save and protect key
personnel, and promote the social stability and long-term stability of the whole of Xinjiang,
based on relevant laws and regulations and based on Article 12 of the previous guidance on
education and training, we again bring up the following opinions.
First, ensure that the training venue is absolutely safe
Adhere to the comprehensive combination of personnel defense and technological
defense to strictly implement measures meeting requirements to prevent escape, noise,
earthquakes, fire, and epidemics. It is strictly forbidden for police to enter the student zone
with guns, and they must never allow escapes, never allow trouble, never allow attacks on staff,
**never allow abnormal deaths, never allow food safety incidents and major epidemics, and they
must ensure that the training center is absolutely safe and free of risk. **
Family education. Through letter writing, phone calls, video chats, visits, meetings,
meals, etc., establish a mechanism for students and relatives to interact with each other, to
ensure that the students will have a phone conversation with their relatives at least once a
week, and meet via video at least once a month, to make their family feel at ease and the
students feel safe. Pay attention to the ideological problems and emotional changes that arise
after family communications, and do a good job of timely ideological guidance. Explore the
establishment of two-way teaching and two-way point system for local schools, and promote
the transformation of students' education.
this is a document from the chinese government. my basic thesis is that throwing people in camps because they are "baby-making machines" is never good and the only way anyone could think this is okay is if they believe the chinese government 100%. which is absurd.
maybe you need to go visit east turkmenistan and see for yourself
It's an leaked internal memo/operation's manual, not a press release. If there was any instructions to engage in sinister activity, then it'd be in there but it's not. You'd almost begin to think that a socialist* government that explicitly overthrew the previously nationalist-bourgeois government, explicitly enshrined the rights of minority groups in their legislature on a fundamental level and saw the share of Uyghur population in Xinijiang supersede that of the Han population reversing their decline under the forementioned KMT wouldn't abruptly start committing ethnic prosecution for absolutely no reason, but maybe I'm off my rocker.
my basic thesis is that throwing people in camps because they are “baby-making machines” is never good and the only way anyone could think this is okay is if they believe the chinese government 100%. which is absurd.
I've seen nothing to suggest people are being thrown into camps for being 'baby-making machines?' Decreases in reproductive rates among a population that is introduced to greater wealth, birth-control and education is a trend universally repeated throughout human history.
And no, I don't support prisons, I don't support the state. It is inherently coercive and will do inherently coercive things. We want it's eventual abolition for a reason. But the reason this debate exists at all is the implication that China's measures are uniquely heinous, which I've seen no evidence for whatsoever.
"mea culpa" is not good enough, you need to have five different gaps in your knowledge of the world to make that mistake and it shows that you absolutely should not be commenting in this thread at all, let alone with an opinion.
East Turkestan is not a historical term for the region used by its inhabitants until the 1900s where two "East Turkestan Republics" popped up for a few years and did ethnic and religious cleansings, its an islamic separatist term and a fucking yikes look.
did he give back all the imperial possessions?
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I mean East Turkestan was seized in a period of imperial expansion and ruled from Beijing as a hinterland. Doesn't that mean that Mao should have released control of it? Since he didn't, doesn't that mean the CCP rules over an imperial possession? Making all this shit about stanning China completely ridiculous and hypocritical?
You.... Want to balkanise China?
tbf we gotta balkanize the whole world. but i'm not gonna say balkanizing china is better or more preferable or should be done before balkanizing the us and shit.
Sure but that shit happens AFTER all the capitalist states are gone.
Congrats, you fixed imperialism! We had this whole struggle session just to figure it out!
If only somebody had though of this before... oh well
:thinkin-lenin:
:sicko-yes:
OP will be so proud of us. Should we send this to Adrian Zenz for “data analysis” ????
No, it means that he should have done his best to institute class consciousness and develop socialism in the territory, which is what he did.
Imperialism isn't "when a government controls an area." What matters is that something is integrated into the main political system and not just ruled from afar and extracted from. And as far as I know, people in Xinjiang have the same voting rights as everyone else.
deleted by creator
this is some ridiculous debatebro shit. no I don't have reliable polling data showing how many uighurs want to be autonomous. where the fuck would someone get that?
deleted by creator
they gotta round them up and throw them into camps to make them more chinese
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adrian zenz is unreliable because he doesn't speak chinese and claims shit like millions are being forced to pick cotton based on "data analysis"
that the chinese government is mass-interning uighurs is not up for debate. I mean, OP is an official tweet bragging about re-educating them.
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I'm saying "vocational training" is a thought-terminating euphemism and there is a lot more going on, much of which you might not agree with. Your arguments are only valid if you believe the chinese government 100%, which I don't, and I think anyone would be stupid to.
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it's like saying "I need a specific accusation of how DHS is mistreating the kids in cages". You don't throw thousands of people in camps for job training. So how about this:
nobody in there had a choice.
You do actually need specific accusations if you mean things other than like being put in a place where your movement is restricted is unpleasant, if there is "a lot more going on" you need specific claims of what more is going on because otherwise you dont have anything to back up your argument with.
I'm sorry but after someone said "East Turkmenistan" I'm done with this thread. I don't think anybody here has the slightest idea what they're talking about.
Very convenient then, that you should not have to back up your claims of "there is a lot more going on" once directly challenged, but whatever.
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lol goddamn nobody here has any idea what they're talking about do they?
absolutely nowhere in this thread did I say East Turkmenistan, East Turkestan or Uighurstan should be autonomous. I didn't give any suggestions at all. I just said it's fucked up and supporting China in this endeavor is not very leftist.
You, specifically. It's pretty absurd how you know that terrorism is a legitimate issue in Xinijang and there's absolutely nothing credible suggesting that the Chinese government is doing anything but genuinely attempting to deradicalize and provide vocational training for people afflicted by religious extremism. Yet, you just have some hunch that the spooky Chinese people have to be doing something sinister?
I've actually -- believe it or not -- read some of the cables/documents known as the 'Xinijiang Cables' that Western media flouted as irrevocable 'proof' of 'Uighur Concentration Camps.' Let's look at some of the horrendous excerpts.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6558510-China-Cables-Telegram-English.html
this is a document from the chinese government. my basic thesis is that throwing people in camps because they are "baby-making machines" is never good and the only way anyone could think this is okay is if they believe the chinese government 100%. which is absurd.
maybe you need to go visit east turkmenistan and see for yourself
It's an leaked internal memo/operation's manual, not a press release. If there was any instructions to engage in sinister activity, then it'd be in there but it's not. You'd almost begin to think that a socialist* government that explicitly overthrew the previously nationalist-bourgeois government, explicitly enshrined the rights of minority groups in their legislature on a fundamental level and saw the share of Uyghur population in Xinijiang supersede that of the Han population reversing their decline under the forementioned KMT wouldn't abruptly start committing ethnic prosecution for absolutely no reason, but maybe I'm off my rocker.
I've seen nothing to suggest people are being thrown into camps for being 'baby-making machines?' Decreases in reproductive rates among a population that is introduced to greater wealth, birth-control and education is a trend universally repeated throughout human history.
And no, I don't support prisons, I don't support the state. It is inherently coercive and will do inherently coercive things. We want it's eventual abolition for a reason. But the reason this debate exists at all is the implication that China's measures are uniquely heinous, which I've seen no evidence for whatsoever.
deleted by creator
"mea culpa" is not good enough, you need to have five different gaps in your knowledge of the world to make that mistake and it shows that you absolutely should not be commenting in this thread at all, let alone with an opinion.
you need to shut the fuck up and read more.
deleted by creator
East Turkestan is not a historical term for the region used by its inhabitants until the 1900s where two "East Turkestan Republics" popped up for a few years and did ethnic and religious cleansings, its an islamic separatist term and a fucking yikes look.