• supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Military service members are an exploited part of the proletariat, fuck you and everyone else in this thread that wants to sow even more division amongst the working class.

    • CyborgMarx [any, any]
      ·
      4 years ago

      The military isn't part of the proletariat unless a draft is instituted, this is basic shit, like come on

      • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
        ·
        4 years ago

        It is basic shit. Their relationship to the means of production is the same as a factory worker's or an office clerk: they sell their time, their labor for compensation. They work for the interests of the capitalist class.

        • CyborgMarx [any, any]
          ·
          4 years ago

          WTF are you talking about, they have no relations to the means of production, they're completely insulated by the state, physically, psychologically and financially, they're sole purpose is to enforce the capitalist state's monopoly of violence, that is not the function of the working class

          Subjugating the global working class is not a fuckin form of labor

          • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
            ·
            4 years ago

            They absolutely do. Their labor fuels the military industrial complex.

            Psychologically and financially insulated? Tell that to homeless vets. That's a joke.

            • CyborgMarx [any, any]
              ·
              4 years ago

              THEY DO NOT PERFORM ECONOMIC LABOR, do you think solders are the ones building the tanks, the planes, the guns? They are a drain, literal weapons of the state, they're function is to kill and enforce, there is no relation here with the working class other than thru cultural affectation or like I said a mass draft which isn't the case in the United States

              Psychologically and financially insulated? Tell that to homeless vets

              We're not talking about homeless vets

              • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
                ·
                4 years ago

                If soldiers are so insulated, how do homeless vets exist, exactly? We absolutely are talking about vets, there is no decoupling of the subject.

                Whether it's manning a ship, defending a border, or taking an oilfield, it has a huge, tangible economic impact. It is a form of labor, the labor that the military industrial complex fundamentally subsists off of. Without that labor, there can be no military industrial complex.

                Just because some of the labor is mind bogglingly awful, does not make it not labor.

                • CyborgMarx [any, any]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  If soldiers are so insulated, how do homeless vets exist, exactly?

                  Because they're no longer insulated once they're cut loose, this isn't rocket science

                  there is no decoupling of the subject.

                  lol there absolutely is because the state does it for us

                  Whether it’s manning a ship, defending a border, or taking an oilfield, it has a huge, tangible economic impact

                  Economic IMPACT is not the same thing as economic output or maintenance, you're confusing concepts and terms, whether soldiers perform a FORM of labor is irreverent, with no relations to the means of production they cannot be working class, by your universal definition of labor every human on the planet is a member of the "working class", you're talking nonsense

                  And the military industrial complex doesn't subsist on the labor of soldiers, it subsists on our tax dollars

                  • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    If they have no material well being after deployment, what insulation of any type is there? This seems pretty asinine, they're only insulted while they're being shot at and eating military rations?

                    Your point about economic output/impact interests me. Let's take a private analogous example. Let's consider something less potentially murdery...

                    Instead of a military patrol on the coast, let's take a security guard at like, a small downtown office. Do they have no economic output? Is "security" an impact but not an output? Are poorly paid laborers that only have "impact" not a part of the working class?

            • The_word_of_dog [he/him]
              ·
              4 years ago

              Alright you've played your hand at this point. Calling the bluff, this is a bit

              • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Haha I'm afraid it totally isn't!

                I do non-ironically appreciate the indignant responses because they have me thinking more deeply about what "class" is.

                Don't get me wrong, I believe in an ideal world there would be no military, no police.

                I support "defunding" the police, and withdrawing our troops from abroad.

                But I don't believe in demonizing the individuals. Nor do I think having a military or a police force is intrinsically wrong.

                And yeah, I'm sympathetic towards the ACAB sentiment since I've never once had a positive experience with cops. Mostly scared of getting murdered.

                But again, I think it's really important to direct our hatred and anger towards the right places.

      • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
        ·
        4 years ago

        It's one thing to dislike the military, it's another to be a class traitor and useful idiot to the capitalist class by shunning others in the proletariat.

        You become a defacto class traitor. And that is certainly worth dunking on.

          • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
            ·
            4 years ago

            A person joining the military in an attempt to better their life or do what they think is right is no worse than someone joining a corporation to better their lot.

            Blaming the soldiers is cowardly and shortsighted. The blame rests on leadership, and more importantly, the system.

            All you end up doing is destroying solidarity, unnecessarily blaming the victims without understanding or empathy.

              • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
                ·
                4 years ago

                The millions of innocents slaughtered by American imperialism are absolutely victims.

                And so is the American father who gets blown up in Iraq the day before his child is born, all for the sake of America's lust for oil.

                Saying "they had a choice" ignores materialism and the influences the system has upon all of us.

                Active soldiers, vets, and people that do not yet have class consciousness. When they see there's these stupid hysterics, this blame for American policy on the individual soldiers, they're going to think you're an unreasonable dingbat. And they'd have a point. It absolutely fractures solidarity.

              • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Tell me, are soldiers called into action due to a proto fascist insurrection, sleeping a night in a parking garage, the same as a group of the Whermacht burning down a village?

                  • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    I'm assuming you divined this information with a burnt sacrifice to the ghost of Lenin?

                    Hot fucking take: people aren't responsible for what they didn't do.