Military service members are an exploited part of the proletariat, fuck you and everyone else in this thread that wants to sow even more division amongst the working class.
It is basic shit. Their relationship to the means of production is the same as a factory worker's or an office clerk: they sell their time, their labor for compensation. They work for the interests of the capitalist class.
WTF are you talking about, they have no relations to the means of production, they're completely insulated by the state, physically, psychologically and financially, they're sole purpose is to enforce the capitalist state's monopoly of violence, that is not the function of the working class
Subjugating the global working class is not a fuckin form of labor
THEY DO NOT PERFORM ECONOMIC LABOR, do you think solders are the ones building the tanks, the planes, the guns? They are a drain, literal weapons of the state, they're function is to kill and enforce, there is no relation here with the working class other than thru cultural affectation or like I said a mass draft which isn't the case in the United States
Psychologically and financially insulated? Tell that to homeless vets
If soldiers are so insulated, how do homeless vets exist, exactly? We absolutely are talking about vets, there is no decoupling of the subject.
Whether it's manning a ship, defending a border, or taking an oilfield, it has a huge, tangible economic impact. It is a form of labor, the labor that the military industrial complex fundamentally subsists off of. Without that labor, there can be no military industrial complex.
Just because some of the labor is mind bogglingly awful, does not make it not labor.
If soldiers are so insulated, how do homeless vets exist, exactly?
Because they're no longer insulated once they're cut loose, this isn't rocket science
there is no decoupling of the subject.
lol there absolutely is because the state does it for us
Whether it’s manning a ship, defending a border, or taking an oilfield, it has a huge, tangible economic impact
Economic IMPACT is not the same thing as economic output or maintenance, you're confusing concepts and terms, whether soldiers perform a FORM of labor is irreverent, with no relations to the means of production they cannot be working class, by your universal definition of labor every human on the planet is a member of the "working class", you're talking nonsense
And the military industrial complex doesn't subsist on the labor of soldiers, it subsists on our tax dollars
If they have no material well being after deployment, what insulation of any type is there? This seems pretty asinine, they're only insulted while they're being shot at and eating military rations?
Your point about economic output/impact interests me. Let's take a private analogous example. Let's consider something less potentially murdery...
Instead of a military patrol on the coast, let's take a security guard at like, a small downtown office. Do they have no economic output? Is "security" an impact but not an output? Are poorly paid laborers that only have "impact" not a part of the working class?
The insulation is the free housing, the free education, the free healthcare, the glorified gated communities that are built to contain and isolate them, "being shot at" and "eating military conditions" just wtf do you think American soldiers are doing at any given moment, you have a pretty bizarre view of the military, are you American?
let’s take a security guard at like, a small downtown office.
Cops aren't working class either, but MOST private sector security guards would be considered a maintenance role, overseeing products or the means of production in the function of a glorified alarm system, with state enforcement of property rights being left to the actual cops, an antagonistic element of the working class (since it's basically just snitching as a job) but still working class, and what type of paid laborers aren't engaged in economic output of one form or another, you like to play with words in a pretty ass backwards way but again this isn't rocket science
Volunteer soldiers who aren't discharged by the state aren't working class, pretty simple stuff
Sure there are incentives and benefits to joining the military. Same for taking a lot of corporate jobs.
But NONE of those benefits compare to the guarantees of the capitalist class. And that's what we're fucking talking about. Many vets live in poverty, like the rest of us - and they are at much higher risks for many health and psychological risks. Do military vets live in a class of luxury above the rest of us? NO. There is no golden parachute for the soldiers and their families, cast to the side for the sake of American hegemony.
Yeah I mean, I'm American, but what the fuck does that matter? Like, are you proud? What kind of non sequitur is this? And like other counties don't have militaries in service of American hegemony?
You initially raised an interesting question, regarding economic output vs impact, but you followed up with a word soup.
To start with: security guards are not snitches. Other fucking employees, also of the working class, often snitch in act of class betrayal. But that makes them no less the working class.
Security guards protect against petty theft and espionage. Not altogether different than the role taken out by much of the military.
Security guards provide the "labor value" of security, which can be empirically and financially measured.
Is that not an economic product of their labor? How does that differ from the Coast Guard? A navy vessel?
My assertion: the military provides economic output in both the form of "security" of assets and through obtaining assets (this is probably always murdery). This is the central force and output that drives the military industrial complex. This is a means of production.
Soldiers sell their time for compensation, the same as the rest of us in the working class. Their relation to the means of production, security and (murdery) asset procurement, is not one of ownership. They do not own the instruments of their (sometimes murdery) toil, e.g. Tanks, drones, guns, etc.
It's one thing to dislike the military, it's another to be a class traitor and useful idiot to the capitalist class by shunning others in the proletariat.
You become a defacto class traitor. And that is certainly worth dunking on.
A person joining the military in an attempt to better their life or do what they think is right is no worse than someone joining a corporation to better their lot.
Blaming the soldiers is cowardly and shortsighted. The blame rests on leadership, and more importantly, the system.
All you end up doing is destroying solidarity, unnecessarily blaming the victims without understanding or empathy.
The millions of innocents slaughtered by American imperialism are absolutely victims.
And so is the American father who gets blown up in Iraq the day before his child is born, all for the sake of America's lust for oil.
Saying "they had a choice" ignores materialism and the influences the system has upon all of us.
Active soldiers, vets, and people that do not yet have class consciousness. When they see there's these stupid hysterics, this blame for American policy on the individual soldiers, they're going to think you're an unreasonable dingbat. And they'd have a point. It absolutely fractures solidarity.
Tell me, are soldiers called into action due to a proto fascist insurrection, sleeping a night in a parking garage, the same as a group of the Whermacht burning down a village?
No, I'm saying American troops that haven't committed war crimes aren't responsible for war crimes.
I know, mind fucking blown.
If they are responsible, so is every single tax payer that has allowed a dollar to go towards the many illegal and immoral wars we wage abroad.
Except, blaming all tax payers seems stupid, right? Because it is the capitalist class, and more importantly, the emergent system that greases its gears with blood that is to blame.
Your hatred is directed towards fellow exploited cogs in the system. It's just easy to hate something that you can put a face to.
Troops do choose to join the military, knowing full-well what the military does and is responsible for, making them directly responsible for enabling these actions.
You think that every kid signing up for the military gets this? Or, coming from abject poverty, should choose a minimum wage factory job?
That's beyond unreasonable. And again, your hatred for these individuals? There is no value in it.
Military service members are an exploited part of the proletariat, fuck you and everyone else in this thread that wants to sow even more division amongst the working class.
The military isn't part of the proletariat unless a draft is instituted, this is basic shit, like come on
It is basic shit. Their relationship to the means of production is the same as a factory worker's or an office clerk: they sell their time, their labor for compensation. They work for the interests of the capitalist class.
WTF are you talking about, they have no relations to the means of production, they're completely insulated by the state, physically, psychologically and financially, they're sole purpose is to enforce the capitalist state's monopoly of violence, that is not the function of the working class
Subjugating the global working class is not a fuckin form of labor
They absolutely do. Their labor fuels the military industrial complex.
Psychologically and financially insulated? Tell that to homeless vets. That's a joke.
THEY DO NOT PERFORM ECONOMIC LABOR, do you think solders are the ones building the tanks, the planes, the guns? They are a drain, literal weapons of the state, they're function is to kill and enforce, there is no relation here with the working class other than thru cultural affectation or like I said a mass draft which isn't the case in the United States
We're not talking about homeless vets
If soldiers are so insulated, how do homeless vets exist, exactly? We absolutely are talking about vets, there is no decoupling of the subject.
Whether it's manning a ship, defending a border, or taking an oilfield, it has a huge, tangible economic impact. It is a form of labor, the labor that the military industrial complex fundamentally subsists off of. Without that labor, there can be no military industrial complex.
Just because some of the labor is mind bogglingly awful, does not make it not labor.
Because they're no longer insulated once they're cut loose, this isn't rocket science
lol there absolutely is because the state does it for us
Economic IMPACT is not the same thing as economic output or maintenance, you're confusing concepts and terms, whether soldiers perform a FORM of labor is irreverent, with no relations to the means of production they cannot be working class, by your universal definition of labor every human on the planet is a member of the "working class", you're talking nonsense
And the military industrial complex doesn't subsist on the labor of soldiers, it subsists on our tax dollars
If they have no material well being after deployment, what insulation of any type is there? This seems pretty asinine, they're only insulted while they're being shot at and eating military rations?
Your point about economic output/impact interests me. Let's take a private analogous example. Let's consider something less potentially murdery...
Instead of a military patrol on the coast, let's take a security guard at like, a small downtown office. Do they have no economic output? Is "security" an impact but not an output? Are poorly paid laborers that only have "impact" not a part of the working class?
The insulation is the free housing, the free education, the free healthcare, the glorified gated communities that are built to contain and isolate them, "being shot at" and "eating military conditions" just wtf do you think American soldiers are doing at any given moment, you have a pretty bizarre view of the military, are you American?
Cops aren't working class either, but MOST private sector security guards would be considered a maintenance role, overseeing products or the means of production in the function of a glorified alarm system, with state enforcement of property rights being left to the actual cops, an antagonistic element of the working class (since it's basically just snitching as a job) but still working class, and what type of paid laborers aren't engaged in economic output of one form or another, you like to play with words in a pretty ass backwards way but again this isn't rocket science
Volunteer soldiers who aren't discharged by the state aren't working class, pretty simple stuff
Sure there are incentives and benefits to joining the military. Same for taking a lot of corporate jobs.
But NONE of those benefits compare to the guarantees of the capitalist class. And that's what we're fucking talking about. Many vets live in poverty, like the rest of us - and they are at much higher risks for many health and psychological risks. Do military vets live in a class of luxury above the rest of us? NO. There is no golden parachute for the soldiers and their families, cast to the side for the sake of American hegemony.
Yeah I mean, I'm American, but what the fuck does that matter? Like, are you proud? What kind of non sequitur is this? And like other counties don't have militaries in service of American hegemony?
You initially raised an interesting question, regarding economic output vs impact, but you followed up with a word soup.
To start with: security guards are not snitches. Other fucking employees, also of the working class, often snitch in act of class betrayal. But that makes them no less the working class.
Security guards protect against petty theft and espionage. Not altogether different than the role taken out by much of the military.
Security guards provide the "labor value" of security, which can be empirically and financially measured.
Is that not an economic product of their labor? How does that differ from the Coast Guard? A navy vessel?
My assertion: the military provides economic output in both the form of "security" of assets and through obtaining assets (this is probably always murdery). This is the central force and output that drives the military industrial complex. This is a means of production.
Soldiers sell their time for compensation, the same as the rest of us in the working class. Their relation to the means of production, security and (murdery) asset procurement, is not one of ownership. They do not own the instruments of their (sometimes murdery) toil, e.g. Tanks, drones, guns, etc.
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I mean you can easily say the same thing about cops. They get a paycheck too
Absolutely. What's your point?
Alright you've played your hand at this point. Calling the bluff, this is a bit
Haha I'm afraid it totally isn't!
I do non-ironically appreciate the indignant responses because they have me thinking more deeply about what "class" is.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in an ideal world there would be no military, no police.
I support "defunding" the police, and withdrawing our troops from abroad.
But I don't believe in demonizing the individuals. Nor do I think having a military or a police force is intrinsically wrong.
And yeah, I'm sympathetic towards the ACAB sentiment since I've never once had a positive experience with cops. Mostly scared of getting murdered.
But again, I think it's really important to direct our hatred and anger towards the right places.
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It's one thing to dislike the military, it's another to be a class traitor and useful idiot to the capitalist class by shunning others in the proletariat.
You become a defacto class traitor. And that is certainly worth dunking on.
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A person joining the military in an attempt to better their life or do what they think is right is no worse than someone joining a corporation to better their lot.
Blaming the soldiers is cowardly and shortsighted. The blame rests on leadership, and more importantly, the system.
All you end up doing is destroying solidarity, unnecessarily blaming the victims without understanding or empathy.
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The millions of innocents slaughtered by American imperialism are absolutely victims.
And so is the American father who gets blown up in Iraq the day before his child is born, all for the sake of America's lust for oil.
Saying "they had a choice" ignores materialism and the influences the system has upon all of us.
Active soldiers, vets, and people that do not yet have class consciousness. When they see there's these stupid hysterics, this blame for American policy on the individual soldiers, they're going to think you're an unreasonable dingbat. And they'd have a point. It absolutely fractures solidarity.
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Tell me, are soldiers called into action due to a proto fascist insurrection, sleeping a night in a parking garage, the same as a group of the Whermacht burning down a village?
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I'm assuming you divined this information with a burnt sacrifice to the ghost of Lenin?
Hot fucking take: people aren't responsible for what they didn't do.
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No, I'm saying American troops that haven't committed war crimes aren't responsible for war crimes.
I know, mind fucking blown.
If they are responsible, so is every single tax payer that has allowed a dollar to go towards the many illegal and immoral wars we wage abroad.
Except, blaming all tax payers seems stupid, right? Because it is the capitalist class, and more importantly, the emergent system that greases its gears with blood that is to blame.
Your hatred is directed towards fellow exploited cogs in the system. It's just easy to hate something that you can put a face to.
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I absolutely disagree with:
You think that every kid signing up for the military gets this? Or, coming from abject poverty, should choose a minimum wage factory job?
That's beyond unreasonable. And again, your hatred for these individuals? There is no value in it.
Craziest fucking take I've ever seen on this website
Finally I have achieved something with my life.