i'm not exactly sure how friendly this community is with potentially controversial opinions on china and the ccp but i really just want to have an open honest conversation on this topic without getting called a dumb ch*nk or cia operative (which i do get a lot on twitter). also this is kinda long and rambly and maybe nobody will read it but if a single person does and is interested in talking more pls hmu.

basics: i think as far as political leanings go, i would label myself a leftist and/or socialist, depending on who i talk to. i have an academic interest in decolonization and police abolition. i'm taiwanese, which comes with a whole host of political implications on its own, but i think it's necessary to state this given the topic matter. also, i am 21 and still in university and most of the time just kinda a dumbass, so bear with me.

on topical issues: i am part of the diminishingly small community of pro-hk leftists both irl and on twitter. i've participated in climate, blm and hk protests in london (go to uni there). i am fairly certain that i can't travel to hk and china now without getting arrested because of my activities in this community and because of other taiwan related non-profits that i'm involved in. i've had the cops called on me at both blm and hk protests and it has cemented my belief that ACAB.

on hk protests: there is a wide, wide range of political opinions in the hk protest scene, and i have been personally disgusted by many hk supporters for also being trump supporters and/or capitalist shills. however, i do believe that the fundamental cause that the protesters are fighting for is just. police action in hk has also been just terrible, and when i say acab i mean All cops. lausan's publications on the matter generally align with what i personally believe in, as do many prominent pro-hk leftists on twitter.

on uyghurs: it is incredibly hard to discern fact from propaganda and fiction when it comes to this specific issue. i understand the hesitation that many of the left have when it comes to believing the scale of what's going on in the XUAR - zenz, aspi, and many american/european politicians that have spoken on it are unreliable or downright despicable and have suspicious motives. however, in the same vein, many leftist papers i've seen cite sources directly sanctioned by the ccp which i for the life of me cannot take seriously. i have talked personally to uyghur protesters (again in london) who have missing family members. i think it's important that in our discourse on the subject we don't speak over uyghurs who are living through real, everyday trauma. my personal position on the issue is that i believe what's happening in the XUAR amounts to cultural genocide, based on everything i've read (pro and against) and personal accounts obtained from people i've talked to irl. i find it incredibly difficult to navigate the political discourse surrounding this on twitter bc it often escalates to, well, finger-pointing and personal insults. it's really soul-sucking to be called a cia operative/bought by the cia when i literally fucking despise american imperialism. also i'm a broke uni student :(

on the ccp: this might be a controversial thing to say here, but the ccp is not the socialist/communist haven that i've seen many make it out to be (mostly online, admittedly). on a theoretical level it appears to me to most resemble a state capitalist system, and politically it is most definitely authoritarian. the ccp, however, does not represent all of china and chinese people, who i think are really one of the biggest victims of the regime. the smear campaign against china/chinese people that many us/european news outlets/politicians have adapted is straight up racist and sinophobic. i think at the end of the day, it is possible to criticize the ccp's actions without demonizing the entire nation.

on twitter leftism: i only started being involved and active in the leftist and hk scene on twitter around autumn last year, but it's so toxic that i am becoming pretty disheartened and disillusioned. it is an absolute shitshow, for example, to talk about trump being a racist sexist and morally abhorrent asshat in the protest scene because there's an infuriatingly high number of 'single-issue trump supporters' both in hk and taiwan. the backlash you get from criticizing the ccp or suggesting that there is something incredibly wrong going on in the XUAR on leftist twitter is actually eerily similar.

i'm not sure if i'm missing out on some stuff here but these are just the things i've been ruminating over since end of last year. i only recently discovered chapochat off the r/wsb fiasco, and found this page, so i just wanted to engage hopefully with reasonable leftists who can talk respectfully and critically on these subjects.

hope y'all have a good day :)

**edit: hello friends thank you all for your replies, some of which have been so detailed and insightful! i would like to continue the conversations with everybody but it's giving me a bit of anxiety looking at so many responses, so i may take some time off of the thread. however, i have read through every single response here and it has given me a lot to think about! thank you for your contributions! i'm also not quite sure how this platform works or if there's a DM function, but if there is and any of you would like to chat with me personally on this topic feel free to hmu.

hope y'all have a good day, stay safe and keep cozy!

  • anacoluthon [she/her,they/them]
    ·
    4 years ago

    hi, thanks for sharing! no i haven't read that, but i'll take a look when i have time. funny thing is my degree is actually eastern europe and russia focused, so that should be an interesting read.

    i do question the numbers you get in the current literature regarding the situation in the XUAR, and i don't doubt they're inflated, but i do think the fact remains that there is something very wrong happening there, and it's distressing to me that it's nigh impossible to figure out what the hell is going on because of the censorship and propaganda, in china and in the west. if i could fly there and verify for myself what's going on i would, but again, that's impossible.

    Additionally, when one compares the treatment of Uyghurs in China (or the treatment of Hong Kong protesters) to the treatment of black people in the U.S., or compares the Chinese approach to extremist violence to the American one, it puts things in a much different perspective. This doesn’t mean China’s approach is perfect, but it says something about how upset we should be with each situation, and it says something about how honest people are being when they’re foaming at the mouth over China but apologetic about the U.S.

    i agree with this completely, and unfortunately i have witnessed firsthand how pro-hk people in online spaces can be around the blm movement - that is to say, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance and anti-black racism going on. i personally think that it is ideologically inconsistent to support hk but not blm, and vice versa. also pro-hk trump supporters are cancerous and i hold no sympathy for them.

    • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
      ·
      4 years ago

      it’s distressing to me that it’s nigh impossible to figure out what the hell is going on because of the censorship and propaganda, in china and in the west. if i could fly there and verify for myself what’s going on i would, but again, that’s impossible.

      Consider that China invited diplomats from Muslim countries to visit, they did visit, and those countries found no significant issues. I think there's still room for skepticism -- big economies talk, and there are plenty of reasons for countries to soft-pedal other countries' treatment of people -- but this is pretty strong evidence against any sort of mass concentration camp narrative.

      One story to watch on Hong Kong is a new visa program in the U.K. that would allow 70% of the territory's residents to move to the U.K. and eventually become citizens. If there's a mass exodus when that program starts, that's a sign that tons of people in HK believe they're experiencing serious oppression. But if most people stay put? That would suggest the protests weren't widely popular, or the protesters don't view their situation as dire, or both. It will be interesting either way.

      • anacoluthon [she/her,they/them]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Impossible? If you have the economic means it’s perfectly possible (at least when the pandemic is over and China issues visas again)

        my parents believe that it is unsafe for me to visit hk or china due to the national security law, which i have violated many times. i on a personal level would love to visit again but i wouldn't risk it.