Scorched Earth Bernie would have been marginally more popular among leftists who might be so far left that they wouldn't vote for him anyway, but he would have been significantly less popular among persuadable primary voters.
Bernie couldn't power through the ratfucking because:
He didn't get those persuadable voters on his side fast enough, and
His strategy of reaching out to people who don't usually vote didn't work well enough.
That first group is made up of people like my mom, who would have gladly cast a ballot for Bernie in the general, but who didn't have him as her first choice due in part to turbolib takes like "Mayor Pete seems like a decent candidate to me." That group is not going to be receptive to a more negative version of the talking points Bernie put out. The second group might be more receptive to a more negative approach, but the failure of the Bernie campaign to turn them out should lead us to reconsider how much we rely on them going forward. Maybe a lot of people are going to be apolitical no matter what.
my mom campaigned for buttigieg because of the whole “it’s time for a millenial president, he seems decent, and when he talks it’s inspiring” thing, and it disgusts me.
these mundane liberal subhumans belong in internment camps where they can’t keep killing everyone
Every possible path to socialism in America involves turning tens of millions of libs into leftists. Dismissing them as subhuman is poison to any leftist project. Of course you're wrong on the merits, too, but that doesn't even matter because just entertaining this idea is giving up on any hope for the future.
You're just repeating yourself. I already told you why your opinion is shit.
For a third time, now: where are you going to get the tens of millions of leftists we need to bring socialism to America if you’re writing off every single lib?
"Libs are all amoral, mindless murderers" is lying to yourself. That's just a preposterous take. And if your preposterous take forecloses any path to socialism, maybe you need to reevaluate some things.
No, you're right, I'm not saying Bernie should've gone scorched earth, but I think Bernie was definitely too friendly and gracious with Biden.
I remember after super tuesday happened, exit polls came out showing that Biden won among people who supported things like medicare for all, raising the minimum wage, and other core parts of Bernie's platform. The problem was that Bernie did not do enough to draw contrasts. Polls showed that the most important thing to primary voters was beating Trump, and yet Bernie did not cast significant doubts about Biden's ability to do that. He did the opposite, and said Biden was a fine choice for that.
So why should people vote for Bernie if Bernie himself thinks Biden is nearly as good a choice? That was the thought process of many lower information voters I talked to throughout the primary. They really thought Biden was going to deliver on some portion of Bernie's policies. Letting that assumption go unchallenged I think was a huge mistake Bernie made.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I can't help but thinking it's easier said than done, though, especially if we start talking about low-information voters who tune this stuff out until a week or two before the vote. I'm trying to think of how Bernie could have better distinguished himself from Biden in a way that (1) would have made it through to people not paying close attention and (2) wouldn't have been perceived as overly negative. It's hard to thread that needle.
Yeah definitely, in actuality Bernie needed to straddle a very fine line. I was posting going along with the assumption of the OP that the 2020 primary was actually extremely winnable, and Bernie simply fumbled it.
IF that is the case, then I think the problem was Bernie going too soft on Biden. But that is a big if.
That first group is made up of people like my mom, who would have gladly cast a ballot for Bernie in the general, but who didn’t have him as her first choice due in part to turbolib takes like “Mayor Pete seems like a decent candidate to me.”
These people would have never voted for Bernie in the primary (idk about your mom specifically, but this type of person). They will always find an excuse to not vote the socialist. Bernie's only path to victory was activating people who don't vote and a lot of those people fucking hate politicians. I don't know if this would have worked, but I think convincing Buttigieg voters is a waste of time for any socialist electoral strategy.
That first group of people is basically "libs who are not hardcore capitalists, and who aren't terminally online enough to obsess over every primary candidate." You're right that it can be difficult to convince them to vote for a Bernie-style candidate in the primary, but it's far from impossible. I remember walking to go vote with someone like that, and asking them who they were thinking of voting for. They said they liked some other candidate but also Bernie, and that they thought the other candidate was proposing some of the same things as Bernie. I mentioned that Bernie "seemed a little more serious" about those policies, and that's all it took to get them to vote for him. This lines up with polling suggesting that most primary voters had Bernie at least in their top two.
Now if someone's a Buttigieg voter, as in they have a Rat Boy sign on their lawn, yeah, appealing to them is not a great use of time. I'm thinking more of libs who haven't committed to a candidate yet.
Scorched Earth Bernie would have been marginally more popular among leftists who might be so far left that they wouldn't vote for him anyway, but he would have been significantly less popular among persuadable primary voters.
Bernie couldn't power through the ratfucking because:
That first group is made up of people like my mom, who would have gladly cast a ballot for Bernie in the general, but who didn't have him as her first choice due in part to turbolib takes like "Mayor Pete seems like a decent candidate to me." That group is not going to be receptive to a more negative version of the talking points Bernie put out. The second group might be more receptive to a more negative approach, but the failure of the Bernie campaign to turn them out should lead us to reconsider how much we rely on them going forward. Maybe a lot of people are going to be apolitical no matter what.
my mom campaigned for buttigieg because of the whole “it’s time for a millenial president, he seems decent, and when he talks it’s inspiring” thing, and it disgusts me.
these mundane liberal subhumans belong in internment camps where they can’t keep killing everyone
A good lib-friendly article on Mayo Pete. Might help.
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Awful, awful take.
Every possible path to socialism in America involves turning tens of millions of libs into leftists. Dismissing them as subhuman is poison to any leftist project. Of course you're wrong on the merits, too, but that doesn't even matter because just entertaining this idea is giving up on any hope for the future.
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get the fuck out of here
go talk to any liberal and come back
I did. You're wrong.
Where are you going to get the tens of millions of leftists we need to bring socialism to America if you're writing off every single lib?
be honest
I'm being honest here; you're the one trying to tell me libs don't have minds lol
Again: where are you going to get the tens of millions of leftists we need to bring socialism to America if you’re writing off every single lib?
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You're just repeating yourself. I already told you why your opinion is shit.
For a third time, now: where are you going to get the tens of millions of leftists we need to bring socialism to America if you’re writing off every single lib?
idk but we’re definitely not going to get them by lying to ourselves
"Libs are all amoral, mindless murderers" is lying to yourself. That's just a preposterous take. And if your preposterous take forecloses any path to socialism, maybe you need to reevaluate some things.
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you’re lying though
:PIGPOOPBALLS:
https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/lg53e2/trump_turned_red_when_staffers_said_he_had_missed/
go ahead, take a look at some perfectly average liberals. see for yourself that they are not people with minds.
I see one :LIB: without a mind, and they keep replying to me
let me know when you’re ready to be rational and honest
No, you're right, I'm not saying Bernie should've gone scorched earth, but I think Bernie was definitely too friendly and gracious with Biden.
I remember after super tuesday happened, exit polls came out showing that Biden won among people who supported things like medicare for all, raising the minimum wage, and other core parts of Bernie's platform. The problem was that Bernie did not do enough to draw contrasts. Polls showed that the most important thing to primary voters was beating Trump, and yet Bernie did not cast significant doubts about Biden's ability to do that. He did the opposite, and said Biden was a fine choice for that.
So why should people vote for Bernie if Bernie himself thinks Biden is nearly as good a choice? That was the thought process of many lower information voters I talked to throughout the primary. They really thought Biden was going to deliver on some portion of Bernie's policies. Letting that assumption go unchallenged I think was a huge mistake Bernie made.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I can't help but thinking it's easier said than done, though, especially if we start talking about low-information voters who tune this stuff out until a week or two before the vote. I'm trying to think of how Bernie could have better distinguished himself from Biden in a way that (1) would have made it through to people not paying close attention and (2) wouldn't have been perceived as overly negative. It's hard to thread that needle.
Yeah definitely, in actuality Bernie needed to straddle a very fine line. I was posting going along with the assumption of the OP that the 2020 primary was actually extremely winnable, and Bernie simply fumbled it.
IF that is the case, then I think the problem was Bernie going too soft on Biden. But that is a big if.
I think the meme is conflating "most winnable (for leftists) in living memory" with "good odds."
These people would have never voted for Bernie in the primary (idk about your mom specifically, but this type of person). They will always find an excuse to not vote the socialist. Bernie's only path to victory was activating people who don't vote and a lot of those people fucking hate politicians. I don't know if this would have worked, but I think convincing Buttigieg voters is a waste of time for any socialist electoral strategy.
That first group of people is basically "libs who are not hardcore capitalists, and who aren't terminally online enough to obsess over every primary candidate." You're right that it can be difficult to convince them to vote for a Bernie-style candidate in the primary, but it's far from impossible. I remember walking to go vote with someone like that, and asking them who they were thinking of voting for. They said they liked some other candidate but also Bernie, and that they thought the other candidate was proposing some of the same things as Bernie. I mentioned that Bernie "seemed a little more serious" about those policies, and that's all it took to get them to vote for him. This lines up with polling suggesting that most primary voters had Bernie at least in their top two.
Now if someone's a Buttigieg voter, as in they have a Rat Boy sign on their lawn, yeah, appealing to them is not a great use of time. I'm thinking more of libs who haven't committed to a candidate yet.