The Wilhelminian empire existed for less than 50 years, was nowhere near the British or Spanish empire in size and still managed to pull off two genocides in Namibia and an involvement in the opium wars. Before kicking off WW1. If it was the least bad, it was due to scale. Where it ruled, it extracted wealth with the exact same ruthlesness and disregard for non-white lives as other empires.
imo it's not really worth ranking them in terms of terribleness. Germany and Italy were latecomers to the colonial game due to becoming states later, but they were all playing it
imo it’s not really worth ranking them in terms of terribleness.
Yeah, it's like sure there are some that just stand head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to the sheer extent of human misery they caused, and others that stand out for how extreme and monstrous their atrocities were, but framing the sort of middle of the pack ones that were awful but not quite as awful as the very worst ones as lesser evils is kind of... I don't know how to put it, maybe it's just the wrong way of framing it? Like singling one or the other out is only really worth it when it's over how extreme their crimes were, while describing one as "least excessive" or "least awful" comes dangerously close to minimizing their actions, especially when their reason for having done less overall was not intent or ethics but a simple lack of time and opportunity.
Spaniard here, we were also not that bad compared with the UK and France because we were already a declining empire who was ignored during the partition of africa and all our colonies were already liberating themselves. Lol
Completely unrelated but I never get to speak to Spaniards, but I just want to say learning about the Spanish Civil War did a lot to push me towards socialism.
Most conservatives or enlighened centrists try to use legitimate criticisms of the republic in order to equate them with Franco.
Was it a clusterfuck? Yes.
Were fascists but also probably normal people extrajudicialy killed during the war? Yes
Were communists killing fascists before the war (and viceversa)? Yes
Did some communists attempt a revolution that failed soon in 1934 in Asturias? Yes
AND EVEN THEN, there's a clear "good" and a "bad" side. Ffs, you can win over even some liberals by pointing out that the communists were a minoritarian party before the war.
Also, some fascists (or idiots) try to justify the coup because a few days earlier a conservative /fascist politician (Calvo Sotelo) was murdered (just like so many other people of all political sides). I don't know if they believe people had phones back then, but a coup can't be organized in a few days. What may be true is that the murder helped Franco decide to give support to the coup because he didn't know what to do before (one good thing i will say about the man is that he was a great opportunist and knew how to seize them), but i would still doubt that.
Eh, i'd say 99% are liberals going all "MMMMMHMMM, this case seems pretty clear-cut, well, time to look for bad stuuf the other side did so i can be superior to both of them".
Not a pissing contest though? Nor was it a shot at you or your family. Just came across as a bit of genocide apologia by saying Spain wasn't that bad.
You don't need to deflect to how poorly UK, French, Canadians, and Americans treated those populations (even though Spain did just as much to people in western North America). They were all horrendous and all should have to make repetitions. But Spain belongs right along side those colonizers for the atrocities they built their wealth upon.
Yeah, they were all horrendous. But there is a difference between an actual extermination and a "normal" conquest (horrible as it may be). Just look at the difference in number of natives in South A and North A.
Something that i want to point out:
Should the spanish government pay reparations or our royal family? Who is actually responsible? For the americans is easy to talk about these since there has been an inumterrupted line between Washington and Trump, but we had had a few royal families (Habsburg, Bourbon, Saboii), two republics, two dictatorships and our current constitutional monarchy.
Also, even the Zapatistas (https://nacion321.com/ciudadanos/ezln-sobre-reclamo-de-amlo-espana-no-tiene-que-pedir-perdon-de-nada) believe Spain shouldn't apologize or do anything. Focusing on what Spain did 400 years ago seems weird when the FMI and the USA are fucking over the place RIGHT NOW.
“We Spaniards are an enlightened lot,” I say smugly as I walk through my dazzling city. “Our genocidio was much nicer than theirs.”
“Where did all the money come from to build this city, this grand crumbled empire, you ask? No fucking clue, I guess we just found it.”
We continue walking.
“Did i benefit from the empire? Shucks no friend, I traced my family history back 500 years, all 150,000 ancestors living at that time, and found no one participated in the empire. They all lived out in the woods, and every descendant since then has also lived in the woods. We have never lived in a society.”
I see a stupid American look on your face.
“What are we going to do about it?” I make a confused puppy face in return. “They’re all dead anyway I guess so what’s the point? Let’s just move on.”
We turn the corner.
“Apologize? No, the Zapatistas say that the capitalists shouldn’t apologize because what good would that do. So that means us leftists should do absolutely nothing,” I say, smugly.
Dumb Americans, I think, they really know nothing of history.
It was still a genocide, though? Like if the onset was to take them all out on purpose or if it was a byproduct of the colonization is minute differences and placing what Spain did in the category of "not that bad" excuses the behavior.
Just because it was 400-150 years ago doesn't meant it hasn't placed strains on the countries or indigenous populations that exist there today?
If I cut off your leg at the knee today, and then did nothing to fix it would 50 years from now we be ok? Or should I still owe you a prosthetic to make up for the damage I did?
Germany is the most progressive on this issue, and even they're shit.
It's probably more that their empire was short lived and didn't get to do all that much colonialism before getting ripped apart by ww1.
I had a history prof who said of all the awful colonial oppressors, Germany was maybe the least bad. Don't know if that's actually true or not.
The Wilhelminian empire existed for less than 50 years, was nowhere near the British or Spanish empire in size and still managed to pull off two genocides in Namibia and an involvement in the opium wars. Before kicking off WW1. If it was the least bad, it was due to scale. Where it ruled, it extracted wealth with the exact same ruthlesness and disregard for non-white lives as other empires.
I don't know either, but make sure you are aware of the Herero and Namaqua genocide
imo it's not really worth ranking them in terms of terribleness. Germany and Italy were latecomers to the colonial game due to becoming states later, but they were all playing it
Yeah, it's like sure there are some that just stand head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to the sheer extent of human misery they caused, and others that stand out for how extreme and monstrous their atrocities were, but framing the sort of middle of the pack ones that were awful but not quite as awful as the very worst ones as lesser evils is kind of... I don't know how to put it, maybe it's just the wrong way of framing it? Like singling one or the other out is only really worth it when it's over how extreme their crimes were, while describing one as "least excessive" or "least awful" comes dangerously close to minimizing their actions, especially when their reason for having done less overall was not intent or ethics but a simple lack of time and opportunity.
Spaniard here, we were also not that bad compared with the UK and France because we were already a declining empire who was ignored during the partition of africa and all our colonies were already liberating themselves. Lol
F in colonialism.
Completely unrelated but I never get to speak to Spaniards, but I just want to say learning about the Spanish Civil War did a lot to push me towards socialism.
Nice.
Most conservatives or enlighened centrists try to use legitimate criticisms of the republic in order to equate them with Franco.
Was it a clusterfuck? Yes.
Were fascists but also probably normal people extrajudicialy killed during the war? Yes
Were communists killing fascists before the war (and viceversa)? Yes
Did some communists attempt a revolution that failed soon in 1934 in Asturias? Yes
AND EVEN THEN, there's a clear "good" and a "bad" side. Ffs, you can win over even some liberals by pointing out that the communists were a minoritarian party before the war.
Also, some fascists (or idiots) try to justify the coup because a few days earlier a conservative /fascist politician (Calvo Sotelo) was murdered (just like so many other people of all political sides). I don't know if they believe people had phones back then, but a coup can't be organized in a few days. What may be true is that the murder helped Franco decide to give support to the coup because he didn't know what to do before (one good thing i will say about the man is that he was a great opportunist and knew how to seize them), but i would still doubt that.
Typical fascist playbook, cry foul over any wrongs committed by the left while excusing their own bullshit.
Eh, i'd say 99% are liberals going all "MMMMMHMMM, this case seems pretty clear-cut, well, time to look for bad stuuf the other side did so i can be superior to both of them".
CEDA gave over their campaign contributions and they had to woo franco. How does that happen in a day?
I think the whole of America's indigenous populations who were worked to death in mines and sugar plantations would probably argue otherwise.
Yeah, and the northen ones wouldn't argue back because the british and americans murdered all of them.
Again, go tell that to their grandpas, mine stayed here and had no input in our foreign policy.
Not a pissing contest though? Nor was it a shot at you or your family. Just came across as a bit of genocide apologia by saying Spain wasn't that bad.
You don't need to deflect to how poorly UK, French, Canadians, and Americans treated those populations (even though Spain did just as much to people in western North America). They were all horrendous and all should have to make repetitions. But Spain belongs right along side those colonizers for the atrocities they built their wealth upon.
Yeah, they were all horrendous. But there is a difference between an actual extermination and a "normal" conquest (horrible as it may be). Just look at the difference in number of natives in South A and North A.
Something that i want to point out:
Should the spanish government pay reparations or our royal family? Who is actually responsible? For the americans is easy to talk about these since there has been an inumterrupted line between Washington and Trump, but we had had a few royal families (Habsburg, Bourbon, Saboii), two republics, two dictatorships and our current constitutional monarchy. Also, even the Zapatistas (https://nacion321.com/ciudadanos/ezln-sobre-reclamo-de-amlo-espana-no-tiene-que-pedir-perdon-de-nada) believe Spain shouldn't apologize or do anything. Focusing on what Spain did 400 years ago seems weird when the FMI and the USA are fucking over the place RIGHT NOW.
“We Spaniards are an enlightened lot,” I say smugly as I walk through my dazzling city. “Our genocidio was much nicer than theirs.”
“Where did all the money come from to build this city, this grand crumbled empire, you ask? No fucking clue, I guess we just found it.”
We continue walking.
“Did i benefit from the empire? Shucks no friend, I traced my family history back 500 years, all 150,000 ancestors living at that time, and found no one participated in the empire. They all lived out in the woods, and every descendant since then has also lived in the woods. We have never lived in a society.”
I see a stupid American look on your face.
“What are we going to do about it?” I make a confused puppy face in return. “They’re all dead anyway I guess so what’s the point? Let’s just move on.”
We turn the corner.
“Apologize? No, the Zapatistas say that the capitalists shouldn’t apologize because what good would that do. So that means us leftists should do absolutely nothing,” I say, smugly.
Dumb Americans, I think, they really know nothing of history.
Our dumbfuck royal family used most of the money to fund more wars so no, the cities are not made with their gold.
Read some fucking history before smugly trying to explain it to the locals.
It was still a genocide, though? Like if the onset was to take them all out on purpose or if it was a byproduct of the colonization is minute differences and placing what Spain did in the category of "not that bad" excuses the behavior.
Just because it was 400-150 years ago doesn't meant it hasn't placed strains on the countries or indigenous populations that exist there today?
If I cut off your leg at the knee today, and then did nothing to fix it would 50 years from now we be ok? Or should I still owe you a prosthetic to make up for the damage I did?
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Germany had multiple colonial empires. The short lived one under the Kaisers, and the shorter lived one under Hitler.
Idk I'd say that countries who have more people ashamed are actually the mor progressive side. They're still up there (tied for 3rd).
I agree, and with that logic Italy is the most progressive country on the list. 🇮🇹