Bad take. "Fuck every worker who works somewhere unethical" is dumb because there are no ethics in capitalism in the first place. Nobody is ethical if you go that route. Nobody.
Workers are workers. Period. Worker purity tests are bad and counterproductive
At the same time "no ethics under capitalism" cannot be used to excuse deeply immoral and unethical behaviour. If some software engineer works for the US military or Raytheon or Lockheed Martin or any other military contractor or weapons manufacturer and calls themselves a leftist you can be damn sure I'll look at them funny and "purity test" them. Like "no ethics under capitalism" does not mean do whatever you want and actively make life worse for others in exchange for personal gain.
Yeah due to all the murkiness and that I think sticking to clear obvious examples of deeply immoral behaviour is best at the moment. Like no need to go after some Google or tech worker whose work is indirectly used by the CIA without their knowledge. But working directly in the MIC as a software engineer = bad basically.
Even then, I would still ask: is making satellites or radios or waterproof clothing for the military worse than, say, what Nestlé or DuPont are doing? I would argue no. I don't think it's easy to draw clear lines with this stuff.
Mcdonalds is unethical but Mcdonalds employees don't get a special secret unmarked bus service while the rest of our stops and lines are cut or talk endlessly and loudly in public about inane tech shit like fuckin apps
How about not "fuck every worker who works somewhere unethical" but just fuck these ones in particular because they are really annoying. Like, the stereotype of a catcalling construction worker is an honorable laborer, and they are (unlike techies) even theoretically doing actual socially beneficial work, but if they are sexist and bothersome then still, fuck them
"Fuck people who annoy me." Yes, surely this is the way we'll achieve a worker's revolution. I think somewhere Lenin actually said that workers who annoy you don't need to be a part of a proletarian worker's revolution.
A worker's revolution needs. Every. Worker. You cannot leave out "workers who annoy you". Trying to leave out sexist bothersome workers sounds great until you take a step inside a unionized factory. You think tech bros are bad? Try spending a week in a warehouse. The change has to be for every worker, and it ABSOLUTELY MUST be intersectional. You cannot just ignore sexist workers, or racist workers, or rich workers, or anyone. You have to look those problems in the face and address them, and then you have to bring those workers into the fold. Deal with sexism while teaching class consciousness, deal with racism while teaching class consciousness, etc. It's not easy but we're absolutely not going to achieve anything even remotely like international socialism without everyone together. You can't just write off entire swathes of the working class because they annoy you.
I've only ever worked in unionized warehouses and I'll be honest, my collegues in them may have been crass but they were way less annoying or problematic than the average tech bro lmao
They can be part of the proletarian revolution if they like I guess, if we're talking about the Rev I would probably prefer some sort of icy arctic labor camp but you're right, that imminent international communist revolution will "need. Every. Worker." and "ABSOLUTELY MUST be intersectional", and include the "rich workers", and all that nice stuff but oh well, I guess the communist revolution is gonna have to be called off because I aint gonna lick techy nuts online, not ever
Fuck people who annoy me, they suck shit, I don't like them
Woah woah woah, you said murder not me, I just think they suck bad. I think you may have overdosed on communist LARP.
You may not be a libertarian, but most google techies are and you are their defense squad, how very Communist of you to lay on the ground in front of technocapitalist shitheads and lick their kicks, and how very dirtbag-left chapo of you to throw yourself earnestly in front of a vulgar insult directed at a job
E: Also fwiw I am mad as hell, because every time I see a google coder it is a painful reminder of how them and that company have made my hometown unlivable and forced my friends into homelessness
Then instead of getting mad at the people whose labor is being exploited by companies like Google, wouldn't it be more productive to work with them to tear the whole system down together?
There's a reason SVDSA techies (ngl that is a large chunk of them, and good for them) always apologize if they have to identify themselves as such. They rightly understand that it is something to be extremely embarassed about. The thing is in that capacity I do actually actively work with tech people to 'tear the whole system down', as you put it (a hilarious thing to suggest of any American leftwing organization, much less DSA, but there you go). The fact is though, if you are poor and from where I am from, it is right to be angry at tech, the asshole coder employees of which being the main interaction you have with it, and they don't do themselves any favors by being 9 times outta 10 rich and very obnoxious dweebs.
In any case I am not in this thread trying to play-act at revolution (not that I don't elsewhere, this is chapochat after all), maybe OP was talking about in a revolutionary sense, and that's its own argument. I am just saying they are lame, they should be ashamed of themselves, I don't wanna date or befriend them, they are distasteful and have a distasteful culture and vibe, fuck apps and fuck them, etc, etc.
I will admit though engineer types are way better than VC tech startup types, who are among the worst scum of the planet
That would surely be strange, luckily I am angry at both in approptiate measure, I'm also angry at cops unbelievably at the same time, and somehow also stock brokers, lots of journalists, lifestyle instagrammers, those people who run brand twitter accounts...
Look, I'm sorry if you're getting a CS degree and feel attacked, I doubt you will have to ever encounter this attitude in real life and that sucks if you do, but I don't see how me saying techies are godawful Muskite wetwipes who trashed the Bay is any worse than anyone shitting on your average chud. If you want a prole revolution you will have to have republican-voting swine along with you also, and yet rightly this site expresses hatred towards them constantly. The main difference is, while there aren't republicans here, there are CS people here, because its a reddit clone. And for those that are, I want them to know: it isn't too late to escape my wrath, just become a game dev or freelance web developer or something, or at least don't wear your logo shirts out in public
Probably, but if I logged off you would have nobody to play your holier-than-thou meme-communist games with and we would both be worse off
This is like when you told me I should talk to some unionized warehouse workers to see what it was really like out there and it turned out that was the only workplace I had ever been in my whole life. What you don't get is, unless you actually are a CS student or techie (in which case lmao) I have had way more encounters with techies than you or the majority of people, inside and outside of an organizing context, personally and in passing. Also, if I went outside and asked any random person here, they would (if they cared) most likely share my opinion, or they would be a techie and the encounter would likely reinforce it. So what you are actually saying when you say "leave your bubble" is "stop being so angry", which sure I guess I should be less spiteful online, fair enough, but fuck you for being a condescending scold
Bad take. "Fuck every worker who works somewhere unethical" is dumb because there are no ethics in capitalism in the first place. Nobody is ethical if you go that route. Nobody.
Workers are workers. Period. Worker purity tests are bad and counterproductive
At the same time "no ethics under capitalism" cannot be used to excuse deeply immoral and unethical behaviour. If some software engineer works for the US military or Raytheon or Lockheed Martin or any other military contractor or weapons manufacturer and calls themselves a leftist you can be damn sure I'll look at them funny and "purity test" them. Like "no ethics under capitalism" does not mean do whatever you want and actively make life worse for others in exchange for personal gain.
deleted by creator
Yeah due to all the murkiness and that I think sticking to clear obvious examples of deeply immoral behaviour is best at the moment. Like no need to go after some Google or tech worker whose work is indirectly used by the CIA without their knowledge. But working directly in the MIC as a software engineer = bad basically.
Even then, I would still ask: is making satellites or radios or waterproof clothing for the military worse than, say, what Nestlé or DuPont are doing? I would argue no. I don't think it's easy to draw clear lines with this stuff.
Mcdonalds is unethical but Mcdonalds employees don't get a special secret unmarked bus service while the rest of our stops and lines are cut or talk endlessly and loudly in public about inane tech shit like fuckin apps
How about not "fuck every worker who works somewhere unethical" but just fuck these ones in particular because they are really annoying. Like, the stereotype of a catcalling construction worker is an honorable laborer, and they are (unlike techies) even theoretically doing actual socially beneficial work, but if they are sexist and bothersome then still, fuck them
"Fuck people who annoy me." Yes, surely this is the way we'll achieve a worker's revolution. I think somewhere Lenin actually said that workers who annoy you don't need to be a part of a proletarian worker's revolution.
A worker's revolution needs. Every. Worker. You cannot leave out "workers who annoy you". Trying to leave out sexist bothersome workers sounds great until you take a step inside a unionized factory. You think tech bros are bad? Try spending a week in a warehouse. The change has to be for every worker, and it ABSOLUTELY MUST be intersectional. You cannot just ignore sexist workers, or racist workers, or rich workers, or anyone. You have to look those problems in the face and address them, and then you have to bring those workers into the fold. Deal with sexism while teaching class consciousness, deal with racism while teaching class consciousness, etc. It's not easy but we're absolutely not going to achieve anything even remotely like international socialism without everyone together. You can't just write off entire swathes of the working class because they annoy you.
I've only ever worked in unionized warehouses and I'll be honest, my collegues in them may have been crass but they were way less annoying or problematic than the average tech bro lmao
They can be part of the proletarian revolution if they like I guess, if we're talking about the Rev I would probably prefer some sort of icy arctic labor camp but you're right, that imminent international communist revolution will "need. Every. Worker." and "ABSOLUTELY MUST be intersectional", and include the "rich workers", and all that nice stuff but oh well, I guess the communist revolution is gonna have to be called off because I aint gonna lick techy nuts online, not ever
Fuck people who annoy me, they suck shit, I don't like them
Which is why nobody will ever take worker solidarity seriously
Nobody in the world annoys you then, huh? View must be nice from up there
Sure, plenty of people annoy me, but that doesn't mean I want to murder them because I'm not a libertarian. How did you even find this site?
Woah woah woah, you said murder not me, I just think they suck bad. I think you may have overdosed on communist LARP.
You may not be a libertarian, but most google techies are and you are their defense squad, how very Communist of you to lay on the ground in front of technocapitalist shitheads and lick their kicks, and how very dirtbag-left chapo of you to throw yourself earnestly in front of a vulgar insult directed at a job
Imagine being this mad that someone wants to include workers in a workers revolution
E: Also fwiw I am mad as hell, because every time I see a google coder it is a painful reminder of how them and that company have made my hometown unlivable and forced my friends into homelessness
Then instead of getting mad at the people whose labor is being exploited by companies like Google, wouldn't it be more productive to work with them to tear the whole system down together?
There's a reason SVDSA techies (ngl that is a large chunk of them, and good for them) always apologize if they have to identify themselves as such. They rightly understand that it is something to be extremely embarassed about. The thing is in that capacity I do actually actively work with tech people to 'tear the whole system down', as you put it (a hilarious thing to suggest of any American leftwing organization, much less DSA, but there you go). The fact is though, if you are poor and from where I am from, it is right to be angry at tech, the asshole coder employees of which being the main interaction you have with it, and they don't do themselves any favors by being 9 times outta 10 rich and very obnoxious dweebs.
In any case I am not in this thread trying to play-act at revolution (not that I don't elsewhere, this is chapochat after all), maybe OP was talking about in a revolutionary sense, and that's its own argument. I am just saying they are lame, they should be ashamed of themselves, I don't wanna date or befriend them, they are distasteful and have a distasteful culture and vibe, fuck apps and fuck them, etc, etc.
I will admit though engineer types are way better than VC tech startup types, who are among the worst scum of the planet
Imagine being angry at workers who are being exploited instead of the capitalist rulers who are exploiting both of you
That would surely be strange, luckily I am angry at both in approptiate measure, I'm also angry at cops unbelievably at the same time, and somehow also stock brokers, lots of journalists, lifestyle instagrammers, those people who run brand twitter accounts...
Look, I'm sorry if you're getting a CS degree and feel attacked, I doubt you will have to ever encounter this attitude in real life and that sucks if you do, but I don't see how me saying techies are godawful Muskite wetwipes who trashed the Bay is any worse than anyone shitting on your average chud. If you want a prole revolution you will have to have republican-voting swine along with you also, and yet rightly this site expresses hatred towards them constantly. The main difference is, while there aren't republicans here, there are CS people here, because its a reddit clone. And for those that are, I want them to know: it isn't too late to escape my wrath, just become a game dev or freelance web developer or something, or at least don't wear your logo shirts out in public
Basically all I'm saying is you should probably log off and have a conversation with someone outside your bubble of hate and anger
Probably, but if I logged off you would have nobody to play your holier-than-thou meme-communist games with and we would both be worse off
This is like when you told me I should talk to some unionized warehouse workers to see what it was really like out there and it turned out that was the only workplace I had ever been in my whole life. What you don't get is, unless you actually are a CS student or techie (in which case lmao) I have had way more encounters with techies than you or the majority of people, inside and outside of an organizing context, personally and in passing. Also, if I went outside and asked any random person here, they would (if they cared) most likely share my opinion, or they would be a techie and the encounter would likely reinforce it. So what you are actually saying when you say "leave your bubble" is "stop being so angry", which sure I guess I should be less spiteful online, fair enough, but fuck you for being a condescending scold
Another candidate for c/roastme