This whole situation is an American-caused disaster from start to finish, but I think the Americans leaving now and just letting the Taliban reign free is gonna be even more of a disaster for the people there.
I know, which is why the whole situation is so terrible. The Americans basically drove a tank into a fragile house, broke the foundation, and now if they leave, the whole house collapses, and if they don't leave, the foundation of the house is still a fucking tank.
They should have never driven a tank into the house in the first place, but pulling the tank out isn't gonna help anybody.
It doesn't matter. Afghanistan will never be stable while the US continues its war. Whatever the ambitions of the local powers are, the US military has no possibility of improving anyone's lives there, they can only make things worse. If you believe otherwise, that the presence of the US can provide peace and stability, then you should be advocating for invasions all over the world. Let the house collapse, the people who live there will rebuild it.
I agree that the Taliban shouldn't be allowed to take over Afghanistan, but America remaining isn't going to stop them if Biden sticks to the current strategy. The Taliban are the only ones with any sort of vision for the country. The rest are just like "why don't we take out another IMF loan we can use to acomplish absolutely nothing?"
Then again, the "vision" the Taliban has for the country is not much better than the hellish state the country is currently in. Which is the terrible twist of the situation.
You can check the modlog to see why your comment was removed. Hint hint: ableism. And as for my (removed by mod) take being fed shit, I am literally from a country the Americans bombed to hell, I would know about despising America. But really, what would the Americans leaving achieve? The Taliban would gain control, life for the average Afghan Person would suck at least as much as it does right now, AND the Americans get to focus their efforts somewhere else.
I also really like this attitude of automatically assuming the worst from people saying anything you disagree with. Yeah right, a neocon is totally gonne be on some mega-obscure ten-thousand member communist Forum, from what is literally day one till now.
Here's a little math for you:
Afghanistan+ American occupation: pretty fucking bad for Afghanistan, but also not good for the Americans either.
Afghanistan- American occupation: pretty fucking bad, for Afghanistan and also the surrounding regions, since the Taliban will take over, but the Americans get to use their soldiers and money somewhere else.
You-Chapo.Chat: You get to calm down a little, because you are much too enraged at literally anything.
To think anything else is to put excessive Anti-Americanism over the actual material conditions on the ground.
Nope, and here is the difference: The Americans can't keep this up, the Israelis can bomb the Gaza strip all day long and then some. And to equate Hamas with the fucking Taliban is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that Israel itself is the imperialist base here. We could equate the situations if Israel is based in New Jersey, but since they occupy the same territory they currently live in, it is another situation entirely. The Hamas fights Israel, a settler-colonialist state whose goal is to wipe out the Palestinian people and establish an ethnostate on their territory. The Taliban fights both the Americans and the current civilian government they set in place, which, while corrupt, inept and authoritarian, is better than living under the Taliban. Or need I remind you of who the Taliban fought literally 30 years ago?
Keeping the lesser of two evils involves pumping billions of dollars a year into it, fueling resentment and blowback, and ultimately making the situation worse.
The only path to stability for Afghanistan is if they figure their own shit out without Western interference. Maybe that means they have to have the Taliban again, amd hopefully overthrow them organically in another 4-10 years. But kicking the can down the road is not really a valid solution, and it is precisely the same program that neocons have been propagandizing us with for 20 years, and this is why you are getting dragged.
And right there is the issue: There is no way in hell there won't be any foreign interference, and if the Afghan people aren't too exhausted from decades of civil war, maybe they'll start another one to overthrow the Taliban, and then there'll be another round of death, destruction and poverty in the country.
And that is beyond the fact that people here seem to be awfully eager to put Afghanistan under the rule of the fucking Taliban, you know, the people who got their clout killing communists, who banned women from getting literally any education, and who recently killed like 50 university students in Kabul for the unspeakable sin of getting an education. The State the country is in right now is no good, but letting the Taliban take over again is guaranteed to ruin it for good.
This fate is always destined to happen: as long as there are Salafis with oil money who will bankroll the fundamentalists, and as long as America has military occupations across the Muslim world, organizations like the Taliban will have a compelling draw to potential recruits.
Endless war and occupation is not a workable policy- in fact, it's counter-productive. Would you rather it ended this year, with a Taliban that's stronger than 5 years ago, or in 2026, with a Taliban that's stronger than today? The best time to leave would have been Bush II's first term, and the more presidents we go through who keep it up, the worse it's going to get.
It's an escalation of commitment. You can't keep escalating forever, especially when that means you make the worst people stronger. You have to recognize it and cut your losses.
With any luck, though, China's influence will be less disastrous for Central Asia.
I would say the "best" (with gigantic parentheses) case scenario is making the Taliban negotiate in exchange for the US leaving. At least some conditions can then be set.
Better them than the narco-warlords we helped put in power. At the very least it then becomes an internal issue as opposed to the current situation in which the imperialist contradictions force people into either pro-US imperialism or pro-taliban camps.
People will be a lot more willing to overthrow whatever crazed theocrats are in power once there is the assurance that some powerful empire wont slink in during the power vacuum and steal all of the nation's resources.
This whole situation is an American-caused disaster from start to finish, but I think the Americans leaving now and just letting the Taliban reign free is gonna be even more of a disaster for the people there.
The first time I heard someone say exactly this was in 2003.
I know, which is why the whole situation is so terrible. The Americans basically drove a tank into a fragile house, broke the foundation, and now if they leave, the whole house collapses, and if they don't leave, the foundation of the house is still a fucking tank. They should have never driven a tank into the house in the first place, but pulling the tank out isn't gonna help anybody.
It doesn't matter. Afghanistan will never be stable while the US continues its war. Whatever the ambitions of the local powers are, the US military has no possibility of improving anyone's lives there, they can only make things worse. If you believe otherwise, that the presence of the US can provide peace and stability, then you should be advocating for invasions all over the world. Let the house collapse, the people who live there will rebuild it.
A tank is a hunk of metal with compressive strength and inertia.
We slammed a bouncy castle into the house and now we need to keep attaching generators to keep it inflated, or else the house collapses.
Good addition.
Whoops, you just did a neoconservatism. Reconsider your conclusions.
I agree that the Taliban shouldn't be allowed to take over Afghanistan, but America remaining isn't going to stop them if Biden sticks to the current strategy. The Taliban are the only ones with any sort of vision for the country. The rest are just like "why don't we take out another IMF loan we can use to acomplish absolutely nothing?"
Then again, the "vision" the Taliban has for the country is not much better than the hellish state the country is currently in. Which is the terrible twist of the situation.
Removed by mod
Shout out to the mod who deleted the comments shitting on the neocon, and left the comment by the neocon up. can you spell F-E-D, children?
You can check the modlog to see why your comment was removed. Hint hint: ableism. And as for my (removed by mod) take being fed shit, I am literally from a country the Americans bombed to hell, I would know about despising America. But really, what would the Americans leaving achieve? The Taliban would gain control, life for the average Afghan Person would suck at least as much as it does right now, AND the Americans get to focus their efforts somewhere else. I also really like this attitude of automatically assuming the worst from people saying anything you disagree with. Yeah right, a neocon is totally gonne be on some mega-obscure ten-thousand member communist Forum, from what is literally day one till now.
Removed by mod
Here's a little math for you: Afghanistan+ American occupation: pretty fucking bad for Afghanistan, but also not good for the Americans either. Afghanistan- American occupation: pretty fucking bad, for Afghanistan and also the surrounding regions, since the Taliban will take over, but the Americans get to use their soldiers and money somewhere else. You-Chapo.Chat: You get to calm down a little, because you are much too enraged at literally anything. To think anything else is to put excessive Anti-Americanism over the actual material conditions on the ground.
Removed by mod
Nope, and here is the difference: The Americans can't keep this up, the Israelis can bomb the Gaza strip all day long and then some. And to equate Hamas with the fucking Taliban is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that Israel itself is the imperialist base here. We could equate the situations if Israel is based in New Jersey, but since they occupy the same territory they currently live in, it is another situation entirely. The Hamas fights Israel, a settler-colonialist state whose goal is to wipe out the Palestinian people and establish an ethnostate on their territory. The Taliban fights both the Americans and the current civilian government they set in place, which, while corrupt, inept and authoritarian, is better than living under the Taliban. Or need I remind you of who the Taliban fought literally 30 years ago?
Keeping the lesser of two evils involves pumping billions of dollars a year into it, fueling resentment and blowback, and ultimately making the situation worse.
The only path to stability for Afghanistan is if they figure their own shit out without Western interference. Maybe that means they have to have the Taliban again, amd hopefully overthrow them organically in another 4-10 years. But kicking the can down the road is not really a valid solution, and it is precisely the same program that neocons have been propagandizing us with for 20 years, and this is why you are getting dragged.
And right there is the issue: There is no way in hell there won't be any foreign interference, and if the Afghan people aren't too exhausted from decades of civil war, maybe they'll start another one to overthrow the Taliban, and then there'll be another round of death, destruction and poverty in the country.
And that is beyond the fact that people here seem to be awfully eager to put Afghanistan under the rule of the fucking Taliban, you know, the people who got their clout killing communists, who banned women from getting literally any education, and who recently killed like 50 university students in Kabul for the unspeakable sin of getting an education. The State the country is in right now is no good, but letting the Taliban take over again is guaranteed to ruin it for good.
This fate is always destined to happen: as long as there are Salafis with oil money who will bankroll the fundamentalists, and as long as America has military occupations across the Muslim world, organizations like the Taliban will have a compelling draw to potential recruits.
Endless war and occupation is not a workable policy- in fact, it's counter-productive. Would you rather it ended this year, with a Taliban that's stronger than 5 years ago, or in 2026, with a Taliban that's stronger than today? The best time to leave would have been Bush II's first term, and the more presidents we go through who keep it up, the worse it's going to get.
It's an escalation of commitment. You can't keep escalating forever, especially when that means you make the worst people stronger. You have to recognize it and cut your losses.
With any luck, though, China's influence will be less disastrous for Central Asia.
I would say the "best" (with gigantic parentheses) case scenario is making the Taliban negotiate in exchange for the US leaving. At least some conditions can then be set.
Better them than the narco-warlords we helped put in power. At the very least it then becomes an internal issue as opposed to the current situation in which the imperialist contradictions force people into either pro-US imperialism or pro-taliban camps.
People will be a lot more willing to overthrow whatever crazed theocrats are in power once there is the assurance that some powerful empire wont slink in during the power vacuum and steal all of the nation's resources.
deleted by creator
Shoo, you. Schuh away.
deleted by creator