We have to do it. Some of us have to do it in different ways. Doing small things where you can is all well and good but literally none of us are making a single impact in capitalism by making different choices about how we're forced to participate in it. Focus on tearing it down together rather than picking apart individual choices because those individual choices still result in participating in capitalism.
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What does this mean
I'm calling bullshit, veganism is not expensive. Black Americans are more likely to be vegan
I didn’t say ALL vegan products are expensive, but they do have the tendency to be. I also don’t see any mention of prices in that article? Who’s to say these are not more well-off Black Americans, as not all Black people are poor in America... Regardless, in my experience, stores around me have expensive vegan products but obvi that’s not everyone’s experience or neighborhood.
I also am coming from the idea that sure, fruits and vegetables aren’t that expensive (unless you’re going for organic). But people worry all the damn time about proteins in veganism. Nuts are expensive. Vitamins are very expensive. Look at peanut butter vs almond butter. Even just a $1 or $2 or $3 more adds up in the long run. My bank account has ended up being in single digit dollars before after grocery runs. Those little things count to people. Also I’m not sure 100% how food stamps work in America, but I have a feeling it probably isn’t enabling a healthy, balanced, or vegan diet either. Again I’m not trying to give excuses to not be vegan, I’m trying for people to be nuanced and understand things are not all black and white nor fully ‘easy’ or ‘hard’ for people to do.
That's what you wrote. Veganism can be expensive, so can carnism. Veganism can be as cheap or even cheaper than carnism. You are giving excuses to not be vegan, bad ones at that. I've heard them all, there's no good ones. There's reasons not to be vegan, which usually come back to it being easy and common.
This is getting back to my point about no one being nuanced. “hey, maybe some products are more expensive, but that’s capitalism for ya! may take more time to learn about which brands are less expensive, but it’s doable if people have the time to put in! though not everyone does, but isn’t our goal to one day live in a world where no one is overworked so much to not be able to have the time to actually understand and research what they’re putting into their bodies?” this just is how i’d go about it, personally...
you know why they're called baby steps? Because they're like stepping on babies. If you give carnists any reason not to be vegan, any excuse, how flimsy it might be, most of them will use it to not do absolutely anything.
I'm sorry if I come over jaded or pissed, but I've heard all of the excuses everyday for years. Why would I listen to a non-vegan on how to spread veganism? if you wanted me to succeed you'd be vegan yourself.
Said this to another commenter here, but I never said I wasn’t vegan myself. People of the same ideology can — and should — criticize each other too.
You being vegan makes carrying water for carnists worse, not better. Bully them if you want to help them, coddling them won't change their mind
going back to my original point: “But everyone here will just continue to get mad at each other for each’s own personal choices instead of working to better themselves, because superiority (on both sides) feels the best.”
Then you're doing apologia for people you know do be doing something ethically wrong, which is about the most liberal thing I can think of.
Lentils and beans are dirt fucking cheap. So are lots of pulses, rice, peas, whole grains, etc. I understand that some of this isn't even available in some food deserts in the US, but anywhere you have a real grocery store all of this should be far cheaper than the same amount of food/protein in dairy or meat.
Honestly I think there's a bit of a cultural problem with this. I'm coming to realize that more and more people just have no idea how to cook outside Western, meat-based cuisine. It's important to not underestimate the size of that barrier for a lot of people. I eat dirt cheap but if I ever go for a meal at my parents, I get crazy expensive chicken or sausage replacements because they have no repertoire of good vegan meals, despite having all the ingredients.
Ok, so you acknowledge the existence of food deserts but are you aware of how widespread they are? They can exist even in the middle of large cities if you live in the wrong area.
Where I live I can't even BUY Lintels most of the time. the one time I found them there were $5-6 for 1/2lb. I try to eliminate as much meat as I can but a truly vegan diet would require a near doubling of my food budget. I often can't find vegetables outside the normal tomato, carrot, onion, bell pepper spread aside from broccoli and yellow squash
Also, have you considered the TIME involved in cooking things like beans and lentils? or vegan in general? Not only does it require significantly more time shopping but it takes a significant amount of time to cook vegan food to release its nutrients. a lot of people simply don't have the time to prep and cook vegan.
you might argue that everyone can make that time but no, not they can't. Nero divergent people often can barely keep themselves fed. I struggle to both to make it to the store to buy food and to cook more than shittest of food most days.
You can advocate for veganism without shaming people. Shame is the LEAST effective motivator. focus on ENABLING. the brief period of time I ate the most vegan was the few times I was the recipient of food aid that was put together by donations from local farmers. there were agricultural products in that box that don't even get sold locally.
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Never said I wasn’t vegan. ‘Carnis’ is (and i hate saying this word) such a cringe thing to say.
putting animal bodies that have been semi-tortured to death in your mouth when you don't have to is even cringier! And it and causes diseases :)
Again, never said I wasn’t vegan.
The same polls shows that only 3% of hispanic folks are vegetarian, indeed, famously known for being rich and therefore not vegan.
Are... are you trying to manufacture an opppression olypics over whether hispanics or black people are poorer in amerikkka because black people are more vegan??
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/poverty-rates-for-blacks-and-hispanics-reached-historic-lows-in-2019.html
Poverty is higher in black communities.... but i don't know why you would even make a comment like that. Once again, please do research.
I'm not trying to manufacture anything. You're saying that poorer people are more likely to be vegan cause it's cheaper to do so. I'm offering a counter example of a cohort of people that are also poor but somehow don't know that vegan food is cheaper, so much so they're just as likely to be vegan as white people which are doing pretty well.
it's great that's there seems to be a higher willingness to make that switch but please let's not pretend that there aren't economic barriers for people to actually be able to make that switch and keep at it
it's interesting that black people who are faced with more of these struggles still manage to be more vegan by population than white people who commonly have less of these barriers, isn't it?
And this forum is mostly white.. hmm
Well something I think is important to keep in mind is that the areas containing a lot of the poor whites have Dollar General (or similar stores) as their main grocer. "Food Deserts" are a rapidly accelerating crisis in middle America. Not to say your critique is necessarily incorrect, just that these are very complex issues with a lot of facets to include in our analysis.