We have to do it. Some of us have to do it in different ways. Doing small things where you can is all well and good but literally none of us are making a single impact in capitalism by making different choices about how we're forced to participate in it. Focus on tearing it down together rather than picking apart individual choices because those individual choices still result in participating in capitalism.
Lmaooooo this site has become a total joke if this kind of comment is being up voted. "Eating meat to own the libs" is the stupidest fucking thing I've read in a long time. Thanks for the laugh.
Bullshit, it's accusing vegans of distracting from class consciousness because we're trying to end suffering.
It's saying that vegan's accusing non-vegans of being bad leftists in distracting from class consciousness. Vegans being vegans to reduce animal suffering is obviously good, and I don't think that the comment insulated that it wasn't.
This comment is a perfect example of why people who can afford to exist without meat but choose not to are larping as leftists. Luxury communism is a myth, and to live in a truly classless world would require a reduction in standard of living for most westerners. People like you are incapable of making any type of sacrifice to the collective good. The benefits to a society consuming no animal products are innumerable; the lower healthcare costs and reduced environmental impact should be enough on their own for a society truly invested in the collective good. "Steak tastes good and I should be able to eat what I want" is literally the most liberal position you could have.
Lmao that comment is nothing compared to what people toss around all the time, even here, when it's not about animal rights; you just feel judged because someone takes a moral position that you don't, and it's not a comfortable feeling. I've been around this block hundreds of times.
Between the shitty reactionary anti vegan arguments like the one above and vegans refusing to self crit after an indigenous person thought their 2011 ifunny tier bit was racist, it really is extremely embarrassing and a complete joke.
I've long maintained that my food choices are my own and I have never shamed anyone else for theirs. I think that human life is paramount, but if you can afford enough healthy calories and protein without killing an animal, you should do so. As far as the spiritual beliefs of indigenous people; the spiritual beliefs of plenty of faiths are in contradiction to my values, am I supposed to sublimate my own strongly held beliefs?
Which indigenous person is saying they don't respect your right to your beliefs? Its the vegans yesterday and today that called them 'uneducated' and implied backwardness in their beliefs.
The comment definitely wasn't aimed at you or anything, just a general comment on the state of the site in response. But as for the beliefs of indigenous people, the right to self determination and leaving them to practice their culture in peace is what I've always thought. They've had enough of other people telling them how to live their lives, and so long as nothing very reactionary is occurring, it's really no one else's business.
Yeah, it was reactionary bullshit. Stop pretending you're capable of making the sacrifices required of living in a Marxist society if you're unwilling to stop eating meat for reasons other than health or economic feasibility.
you don't have any idea where they source their diet from. their take is still shit, and i didn't want to come off defending it, but yours isn't great either.
don't assume my race, and go fuck yourself you racist fuck
because they're making assumptions about bullshit and so i called them out on their bullshit. when i realized that it could be taken as defending fucking shitty take, i deleted it, it doesn't make their response any less bullshit.
shit tier take.
vegans absolve the government and capitalists for their perpetuation of the cruel factory farming system.
"vegans absolve the government and capitalists for their perpetuation of the cruel factory farming system."
and this is fucking upvoted. fucking bullshit.
yeah that's much better. it doesn't lump all vegans into group and a demonize them, and limits it to judgmental people.
edit: i still disagree with the point you're making, but at least it doesn't just immediately attack all vegans as somehow absolving capitalism for choosing not to eat animals/dairy
How do you propose we get to a collective consensus on addressing animal cruelty without individuals first being convinced to stop doing animal cruelty?
Eating chicken is like sex for you? The sensation of eating a steak is more important than avoiding inflicting a lifetime of suffering on a being very much like you?
at the party congress committee on sustainability & efficiency
And who one that committee is going to propose we ban the production and consumption of meat, if none of those people are opposed to it?
How do you expect the populace to react if no one understands the reasoning and ethics behind it?
This is a very sensible comment, thank you.
I’m sure vegans would be very happy to introduce systemic change but for some reason non-vegans aren’t on board with banning animal agriculture. I don’t think it’s a mystery as to why.
Ding ding ding ding ding! When I said that meat would be scarce or unavailable in a true communist society, people shit their pants over it and I got replies saying, "even if that's true, SHUT UP about it, you're driving people away"
I absolutely agree that blaming individuals is the silliest thing possible, because part of my core beliefs is that people are ultimately reflections of their experiences and circumstances (good or bad), which you can't control or decide. However in the case of veganism, as far as ive read, an individual choosing to be vegan does have a tiny but still meaningful effect on the supply chain, and to me at least sparing just a couple animals is worth it. So blaming people is the wrong mindset, instead we should all be addressing the individuals in our lives about these things, however is reasonable.
But yeah its a collective problem and imo the collective solution is to have as many people as possible working to collectively boycott the (heavily subsidized and unsustainable) industries, and that starts with encouraging friends and families to do what they can reasonably do to participate in this movement. I see it as a movement thats growing rapidly and is already having effects on these industries, so in terms of fulfilling forms of praxis its up there.
Vegan activism encompasses way more than just advocating for people to be vegan. If omnis wanna advocate with vegans for the end to oppression of animals then they're welcome to but weirdly they always end up coming to the conclusion that actually there's nothing wrong with eating animals
Of course and that's a good thing in the same way that socdems wanting to limit the harms of capitalism is a good thing. It's an incomplete analysis that vegans are looking to complete.
It just comes across as disingenuous that your original comment is saying the problem with veganism is tactical when actually your problem is it advocates for the end of more than just factory farming.
Meanwhile you're over here actively trying to exclude me and others from action that actually matters because I'm not doing action that doesn't matter. Leftists need to stick together and organize together because "just don't buy it then" does not and will not even remotely harm the interests of capital.
The problem is capitalism. It's not meat eaters or plastic users or tax payers. The sooner folks of ALL walks stop trying to exclude people from the movement the sooner we can actually have a movement. Meanwhile you're doing a tiny thing that makes 0 actual difference and claiming that we are horrible horrible people doing something else. It's counter productive. It does nothing. Why do it except because you don't actually care about tearing down capitalism?
I won't say that I don't give a shit about animals. I was vegetarian for like a year but guess what? Fucking capitalism happened and now I'm not anymore. This is what I'm talking about. You are just flying in here and everywhere passing judgement on people you don't know for something that literally does not further the goal of "remove capitalism". It's frankly disgusting. You don't know me. You don't know anyone or any of the circumstances around the people you're shouting at. You have no idea what my circumstances are. You have no idea what you're saying other than "I'm better than you because I don't participate in one tiny piece of capitalism and I don't care about the rest." It's ridiculous. It's the same shit libs do when they say things like 'Voting for Biden is the lesser evil!' and then they do literally nothing else for 4 years. That's you. Right now.
Go organize instead of trying to tear a community apart
I didn't make a big show of it. I didn't even reference animal products at all; you brought this up, presumably as an example of how I'm wrong, and then flew off the handle immediately when I went to defend my initial statement of "this kind of bullshit is counter productive".
And that's why it's counter productive. So I guess thank you for popping in and immediately proving my point?
It's the circle of lib honestly. There's nothing more lib than saying "I'm doing one thing, therefore I'm better than you and don't have to do anything else". And as is customary of libs, when someone calls them out on "hey, that's just being a lib and isn't useful, let's try doing something useful instead", they get mad and say "no actually YOU'RE the lib!"
Seriously, go do something that matters. Annoying people online because they can't or won't or don't fall into your perfect ideal vision of what leftism is doesn't do anything.
Not to butt in here but yesterday's dogposting triggered a couple animal ethics questions in my head. Like, assuming it's not against your religion (Jews, Muslims, and I THINK Christians but I'm not sure), is there a problem eating wild animals that died on their own? Also, it is my understanding that the issue with eating eggs is the circumstances in which the eggs are produced, so if I personally got some chickens that would have been used to produce eggs in a factory and kept them on my property to roam about freely and safely, would it be ok for me to eat their eggs? At that point the chickens are living with basically their maximum potential autonomy short of being able to wander around in the woods with no food, and they're gonna lay the eggs anyways, so why not eat the eggs? I get that the fact we have bred chickens to produce eggs in this manner is itself unethical, but now there are chickens that will be producing eggs whether we like it or not, so if the chickens are in a position where their egg laying is not exploited (i.e. they can do whatever they want, if they stop laying eggs it's fine but if they lay eggs that's cool) is there still an ethical dilemma? And if we wanted to stop egg production entirely, wouldn't that require us to kill off all chickens either directly or through forced defertilization? Additionally, if we were to let all chickens free and voluntarily stop eating them or their eggs, where would they go? That last one isn't an argument against veganism persay, I'm just curious about the practical aspects. Like what habitat can chickens live in? I know they came from forests in South East Asia but now I can't imagine where they'd survive. I'm sure they'd survive somewhere. Great Plains maybe? Majestic herds of chickens galloping across the plains with the sun shining over them?
Additionally, if we were to let all chickens free and voluntarily stop eating them or their eggs, where would they go?
It is unfortunately true that domestication and selective breeding has made it so many of these species are reliant on human intervention for continued survival
Eating a wild animal that died on it's own would be vegan yes but I'll give you a heads up that questions like that don't tend to go down pretty well with vegans cuz it comes across as a gotcha and they get that a lot. Like is the practical implication there that there are people that would go vegan if only they could eat roadkill? I'm sure you don't intend it to come across that way but I thought I'd let you know.
As for eggs, while keeping your own chickens is better than battery farming it's still problematic. Hens don't naturally produce the insane number of eggs that we're used to. A wild chicken will generally produce 12-20 eggs a year similar to how a woman has a period but when a hen's eggs are taken away from them they instinctively produce more leading to the hundreds per year that battery hens lay. Laying eggs uses a lot of calcium for the shell so forcing them to lay way more than they're naturally used to is very bad for them. Normally a chicken will eat it's own eggs to replenish the nutrients lost during laying so by taking the eggs of your backyard chicken you're forcing it lay more eggs than it should and denying it the nutrients to sustain itself.
Your point about stopping egg production entirely is on the assumption that we're able to stop it overnight which no vegan is naive enough to think. The veganisation of society is something that will happen gradually over many years so there is no worry of some overnight chicken re-wilding that must happen.
As for the last point there are wild chickens in the world atm and it's very unlikely to be the case that battery chickens will all be released into the wild they will just be bred less and less for exploitation.
you: a sectarian
"i am correct and cannot empathize with your position and refuse to try"
Slaughterhouses, factory farms and whatnot are still going to run even if you turn Vegan. You're not freeing animals from cruelty by not eating meat, just like how you're not freeing kids from sweatshops by not wearing sneakers. Unless you're that confidence in your buying power as a consoomer like a :LIB:
With this in mind I will stop ordering packages from amazon to exercise my power as a consoomer.
There's no one organising technique that "works" what does this even mean? Boycotts are absolutely effective at raising consciousness as part of a wider movement
Actually, it doesn't change anything because the markets aren't responsive enough to adjust how many animals are slaughtered based on a single person's day-to-day consumption habits.
The comparison to child labor is apt.
Sorry if that makes you feel less morally superior.
"You see, it's bad, actually to give money to homeless people because it's a temporary fix and won't long term solve homelessness"
That immediately alleviates the suffering of another
humanbeing, however insignificantly, making it categorically different than simply being vegan:thinkin-lenin:
Didnt realize the immigrant slaughterhouse workers who get PTSD from their jobs weren't humans who were suffering.
Please tell me more about your empathy for fellow humans tho :)
https://www.texasobserver.org/ptsd-in-the-slaughterhouse/
Your not eating animal products does jack shit for those people, sorry
A comparable action to giving a homeless person money would be fostering animals or donating to orgs that help animals
But you definitely can just stop eating meat and live more or less the same life. Buy some beans, it turns out they're cheaper too.
Vegans say this sort of thing a lot. But they also say that going vegan causes you to lose weight. I would be dangerously underweight if I lost even 15 pounds. So maybe don't assume it's genuinely viable for everyone?
Must be nice to know everything about everyone else's life circumstances.
If you must know, I haven't been to a grocery store in over a year, and I don't prepare food for myself, which is, you know, kind of a key activity vegans need to perform for themselves.
Anyway, I don't really want to continue this argument. I just wanted to point out that going vegan is not simply something everyone can do (despite being in full agreement on the morality of veganism), and I got a ton of shit from multiple people for it. As many others have said during this ongoing struggle session (which I have been studiously avoiding up until now), condescension is not a winning conversion strategy.
I have asked to disengage, and you have not done so. Further comments will be reported.
Lol no. I completely reject the idea that you can’t go vegan because you’re worried you might lose weight, that’s really silly.
That literally happened to me(vegetarian) and my nutritional levels dropped too. My doctor forced me back into eating at least some kind of red meat and fish, at least one of them each week. I tried my best to have a balanced diet while vegetarian, but it didn't help apparently.
Edit: By the way i'm perfectly aware that mine is a rare situation and don't apply to everyone. Try going vegan/vegetarian if you can. I'm eating the minimum amount of meat just to keep myself healthy. If you don't feel like it, try reducing the amount of meat consumption. Every little bit helps. If you don't want to go vegan, don't go vegan, you're not forced to, and people who are trying to guilt-trip you have online poisoning.
But they also say that going vegan causes you to lose weight
I have never heard a vegan say this. If you want to lose weight on a vegan diet, you can. If you don't want to lose weight, you don't have to. If you're eating a metric fuckton of cheese and fatty meats I mean yeah, maybe.
You're presupposing that I can "bulk up" without being vegan, but I have never found this to be true. So I don't think imposing additional dietary challenges is going to help.
Switching to not eating meat will not cause you to drop a lot of weight.
Meat isn't what causes people to gain weight, carbs do. And carbs are vegan.
I have absolutely zero desire to talk to you, as you clearly already know. Go away.
Going vegan can help you lose weight if you want to because you have to reevaluate all the food you eat so you can make healthier choices. But if you don't wanna lose weight, you're not going to.
Then how is this complaint about veganism? You've manufactured an unrelated excuse to continue doing animal cruelty.
i'm the direct opposite lol - going vegan hasn't made me lose weight at all.
I've never seen studies or anything about it, but I'm fairly sure that people who lose weight going vegan were overweight to begin with. Rice and beans don't have less calories than a steak.
There’s also A lot of people who lose weight when going vegan because they were going vegan for such a purpose or subconsciously have orthorexia. So it is an issue but their circumstances aren’t applicable to everyone if you pay attention to eating enough calories.
You're right - we cannot escape capitalism. The various electronic devices we use, the clothes we wear, the food we eat, the power we use in our homes etc. At the same time, as leftists, we must try to reduce the harm we cause at a personal level, while recognizing that this wouldn't end capitalism. Use your phone/laptop etc for longer rather than getting a new one every couple of years. Wear clothes for longer, or get them from non-exploitative labor. For food, don't eat meat. These are all steps you can take that won't end capitalism - but they're all steps that you take if you have a compassionate view of the world.
Please stop buying batteries, they’re made with child slave labor. Please stop consuming power, the pollution is killing animals and people. Please stop using plastic, animals all around the world are full of it. Please stop using metal, mining is an extremely dirty and polluting process. Please stop paying your taxes, your local PD is using the money to assault and jail your neighbors.
These are all things we should be doing, that in fact, we can do if we act collectively, but right now we don't have that level of solidarity. So we do what we can as individuals while building towards that solidarity.
Vegans please shut up about being vegans for just one day challenge
My power is clean
:doubt:
does that make veganism good or bad now?
Learning to eat a more plant-based diet is good. People have an unhealthy relationship to food, especially meat.
But veganism is far from a healthy relationship to food.
I have no idea why you think not eating animals is an unhealthy relationship with food.
Because wherever you live, there are meats that are significantly more ecological sound than any agricultural output.
Where I live, it's white-tailed deer & invasion carp.
Also, if your vegan diet involves shit like almonds, bananas, avocados, or really anything that isn't grown near you... lol
None. The farms are already in place, all the produce is just fed to animals so you can get a tiny fraction of meat from it.
Or it's burnt as fuel. Or it's just...left to rot on the field because farmers often can make more money doing that. We waste so much food because that's what's convenient for capital
Do you people really think that people feed tomatoes and cucumbers and shit to farm animals? Most industrialized farms mainly produces shit like wheat, with the remaining stalks harvested for animal feed. Getting rid of animal husbandry is quite literally increase the carbon footprints of farms as each produce will be less efficiently used. Not to mention if everyone were to eat vegetables exclusively, you'll have to increase the farm capacity to make up for all the food that's no longer coming from unfarmable pastures.
Indeed, I feel like I'm wasting my effort here. These people's sole purpose is to get off of acting contrarian.
Your proposal just creates a culture of hunting deer as pests instead of actually solving something long term
Pests refer to species that are destructive to a given agricultural or husbandry practice. I'm not talking about the deer population as a pest. I'm talking about the explosion in deer population and it's effect on North American ecosystems.
Long-term solution involves the centralized planning of agriculture, husbandry, hunting, and foraging to produce food for the local human population in concert with nature.
Neither hunting & eating more plant-based diets are long-term solutions by themselves.
ehhhh carbon footprints going up from not having giant fart-machines attached to them? stalks going to animal feed is a compelling point but it doesn't feel like a coup de grace. and to my knowledge 'regular' crops of corn get fed to animals, so its not an argument that applies to all farms
What do you suppose we do with agricultural remains then? Let it rot on the ground and produce more gasses? Burn them and produce gasses?
my knowledge ‘regular’ crops of corn get fed to animals, so its not an argument that applies to all farms
It's true, some crops like Sorghum are grown specifically for animals. But my point that let's not pretend that agriculture has no environmental issues in of itself.
"Please, we humble southerners only wish to continue doing cruelty in peace. Why must the north intervene."
So is there some subset of vegans that are contractually obligated to equate not being a vegan with owning Black people as property or something.
Equating human cruelty with animal cruelty is good because they're similar in many ways, including the reluctance of liberals to speak up or take any inconvenience in their lives to end it.
I think vegans should stay in their lane and stop trying to equate simply not being vegan with slavery and ethnic cleansing.
But it's also a false equivalence because slave owners own the means of production under slavery, whereas non-vegans do not own the means of producing meat.
I think veganism is very comparable to the ‘don’t buy fast fashion’ argument. For some people, it is extremely doable. It will cost more, but some people have the means to. For others, they cannot afford to buy sustainable clothing (because like a lot of vegan products, sustainable clothing has become extremely overpriced). But I do wonder if most vegans would be upset if you tried to guilttrip them if they ever buy any fast fashion. As well I wonder if there are more people who can go vegan or buy sustainable clothes but refuse to do so because it’s hard work.
Also so few of these discussions ever include the amount of abuse and exploitation of humans that goes into most food. If you care about all suffering, you would have to completely make all of your own ingredients. But just as one should care about that when using it as an anti-vegan argument, they should care for it when it applies to animals as well.
But everyone here will just continue to get mad at each other for each’s own personal choices instead of working to better themselves, because superiority (on both sides) feels the best. Being nuanced just means you aren’t the best leftist when in fact very few here will ever be that because it is impossible.
Also sometimes leftists just have... different goals. Some people care firstly about environment, or ensuring free healthcare, or prioritizing the global south. I know I above all prioritize the safety and protection of Roma when it comes to my beliefs and actions. And it’s fine if sometimes you don’t prioritize what other’s do.
I did some work with a christian non-profit a while back, and one of the few excellent nuggets of thought I got there was that everyone has a different "calling." Spirituality aside, the idea was that its ridiculous to be mad at someone because they're focusing on say, feeding the homeless, rather than ending domestic violence.
Both of these things are good. One person can not possibly devote all of their time to every cause, and being frustrated with someone over what you perceive as their laziness or uncaring attitude is ridiculous because more often than not they're doing what they can.
Your average leftist doesn't need to be told how cruel the conditions are in meat-packing facilities. Hell, I worked in one while I was working at that non-profit. We're on the same side, but life is hard, and food is expensive and sometimes I just need to grab a quick, shitty, disgusting burger on the way to work because I can't afford to be late again or I'll get fired.
The cool thing for me is that leftists with different goals working together can achieve all of those goals together. In fact I think that's the only way we'll achieve anything; intersectionality is absolutely critical to any real leftist movement.
Yeah I wanted to add that into my second comment but felt I said enough lol. It’s better for us all to have different areas of focus (while still caring about everything else too) because like if one person only knows how to garden, who’s going to build the houses... or some type of metaphor like that. 😩 And I like learning about these issues from others. I’ve learned a shit ton from my environment activist friends and I know I have educated people a lot on Romani things. It’s cool and good to be unique individuals.
because like a lot of vegan products, sustainable clothing has become extremely overpriced
:bean-think:
I'm calling bullshit, veganism is not expensive. Black Americans are more likely to be vegan
I didn’t say ALL vegan products are expensive, but they do have the tendency to be. I also don’t see any mention of prices in that article? Who’s to say these are not more well-off Black Americans, as not all Black people are poor in America... Regardless, in my experience, stores around me have expensive vegan products but obvi that’s not everyone’s experience or neighborhood.
I also am coming from the idea that sure, fruits and vegetables aren’t that expensive (unless you’re going for organic). But people worry all the damn time about proteins in veganism. Nuts are expensive. Vitamins are very expensive. Look at peanut butter vs almond butter. Even just a $1 or $2 or $3 more adds up in the long run. My bank account has ended up being in single digit dollars before after grocery runs. Those little things count to people. Also I’m not sure 100% how food stamps work in America, but I have a feeling it probably isn’t enabling a healthy, balanced, or vegan diet either. Again I’m not trying to give excuses to not be vegan, I’m trying for people to be nuanced and understand things are not all black and white nor fully ‘easy’ or ‘hard’ for people to do.
I think veganism is very comparable to the ‘don’t buy fast fashion’ argument. For some people, it is extremely doable. It will cost more
That's what you wrote. Veganism can be expensive, so can carnism. Veganism can be as cheap or even cheaper than carnism. You are giving excuses to not be vegan, bad ones at that. I've heard them all, there's no good ones. There's reasons not to be vegan, which usually come back to it being easy and common.
This is getting back to my point about no one being nuanced. “hey, maybe some products are more expensive, but that’s capitalism for ya! may take more time to learn about which brands are less expensive, but it’s doable if people have the time to put in! though not everyone does, but isn’t our goal to one day live in a world where no one is overworked so much to not be able to have the time to actually understand and research what they’re putting into their bodies?” this just is how i’d go about it, personally...
you know why they're called baby steps? Because they're like stepping on babies. If you give carnists any reason not to be vegan, any excuse, how flimsy it might be, most of them will use it to not do absolutely anything.
I'm sorry if I come over jaded or pissed, but I've heard all of the excuses everyday for years. Why would I listen to a non-vegan on how to spread veganism? if you wanted me to succeed you'd be vegan yourself.
Said this to another commenter here, but I never said I wasn’t vegan myself. People of the same ideology can — and should — criticize each other too.
You being vegan makes carrying water for carnists worse, not better. Bully them if you want to help them, coddling them won't change their mind
going back to my original point: “But everyone here will just continue to get mad at each other for each’s own personal choices instead of working to better themselves, because superiority (on both sides) feels the best.”
Then you're doing apologia for people you know do be doing something ethically wrong, which is about the most liberal thing I can think of.
Lentils and beans are dirt fucking cheap. So are lots of pulses, rice, peas, whole grains, etc. I understand that some of this isn't even available in some food deserts in the US, but anywhere you have a real grocery store all of this should be far cheaper than the same amount of food/protein in dairy or meat.
Honestly I think there's a bit of a cultural problem with this. I'm coming to realize that more and more people just have no idea how to cook outside Western, meat-based cuisine. It's important to not underestimate the size of that barrier for a lot of people. I eat dirt cheap but if I ever go for a meal at my parents, I get crazy expensive chicken or sausage replacements because they have no repertoire of good vegan meals, despite having all the ingredients.
Ok, so you acknowledge the existence of food deserts but are you aware of how widespread they are? They can exist even in the middle of large cities if you live in the wrong area.
Where I live I can't even BUY Lintels most of the time. the one time I found them there were $5-6 for 1/2lb. I try to eliminate as much meat as I can but a truly vegan diet would require a near doubling of my food budget. I often can't find vegetables outside the normal tomato, carrot, onion, bell pepper spread aside from broccoli and yellow squash
Also, have you considered the TIME involved in cooking things like beans and lentils? or vegan in general? Not only does it require significantly more time shopping but it takes a significant amount of time to cook vegan food to release its nutrients. a lot of people simply don't have the time to prep and cook vegan.
you might argue that everyone can make that time but no, not they can't. Nero divergent people often can barely keep themselves fed. I struggle to both to make it to the store to buy food and to cook more than shittest of food most days.
You can advocate for veganism without shaming people. Shame is the LEAST effective motivator. focus on ENABLING. the brief period of time I ate the most vegan was the few times I was the recipient of food aid that was put together by donations from local farmers. there were agricultural products in that box that don't even get sold locally.
Never said I wasn’t vegan. ‘Carnis’ is (and i hate saying this word) such a cringe thing to say.
putting animal bodies that have been semi-tortured to death in your mouth when you don't have to is even cringier! And it and causes diseases :)
The same polls shows that only 3% of hispanic folks are vegetarian, indeed, famously known for being rich and therefore not vegan.
Are... are you trying to manufacture an opppression olypics over whether hispanics or black people are poorer in amerikkka because black people are more vegan??
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/poverty-rates-for-blacks-and-hispanics-reached-historic-lows-in-2019.html
Poverty is higher in black communities.... but i don't know why you would even make a comment like that. Once again, please do research.
I'm not trying to manufacture anything. You're saying that poorer people are more likely to be vegan cause it's cheaper to do so. I'm offering a counter example of a cohort of people that are also poor but somehow don't know that vegan food is cheaper, so much so they're just as likely to be vegan as white people which are doing pretty well.
But socioeconomic factors like poverty, living far from a greengrocer and easy access to fast food have made it harder for African Americans to eat healthily, according to the Food Empowerment Project, a non-profit aimed at ending food inequality.
it's great that's there seems to be a higher willingness to make that switch but please let's not pretend that there aren't economic barriers for people to actually be able to make that switch and keep at it
it's interesting that black people who are faced with more of these struggles still manage to be more vegan by population than white people who commonly have less of these barriers, isn't it?
And this forum is mostly white.. hmm
Well something I think is important to keep in mind is that the areas containing a lot of the poor whites have Dollar General (or similar stores) as their main grocer. "Food Deserts" are a rapidly accelerating crisis in middle America. Not to say your critique is necessarily incorrect, just that these are very complex issues with a lot of facets to include in our analysis.
Another argument in the same vein is using Linux-based operating systems instead of the usual suspects. You're still feeding into the big SV monopoly that is at the forefront of surveillance capitalism, tracking and law enforcement. Even if you pirate every every piece of software, when someone asks for a report, essay, article or w/e you'll hand them a docx cause that's what you know how to do so there's never any pressure to use format that are not under their control. The perversity of it is that even if you "steal" the software you're still basically saying "no real alternative is possible".
The counters to not doing this are common counters to veganism: that sounds like effort I'm not willing to put in, i have to relearn how to do things i already know how to do, i have to learn how to do new things to supplant the old ones i can no longer do, but what about my video games (the bacon of computer programs) and so on.
The pros are also similar. It's something you "can just do". Most of the things you do are in a browser anyway nowadays so the OS matters a lot less. Yes there are people that absolutely require bespoke software that will not run on any other OS, 99% of people however, don't.
For the record I'm not trying to equivocate inflicting needless suffering on sentient beings with running Microsoft Office or something. They're not the same thing, obviously.
Yeah I was going to say it’s a harder comparison because not that the surveillance state is good but it is a different type of bad vs factory farms and sweatshops. But I get where you’re coming from in comparing the ‘why don’t we do this’. At the end of the day, we ALL do bad stuff. Stuff we can — and should — work on. But beating yourself up over it only inflicts guilt and not motivation to change, just as superiority makes you feel you’re good enough and have nothing to work towards.
While it may be the exception to the rule that is not true in large areas of my country, Canada. Around 100,000 people live in the northern territories and Nunavik. It is impossible to grow vegetables and fruits there and in the territories the bay is frozen for most of the year making shipping food very difficult. Most of the people who live in this area, >75%, are Inuit, and a vast part of their culture and diet relies on seal meat along with other sea animals. So for this group of people, yes, veganism is more expensive and hard, as a carton of orange juice in nunavut costs 26 dollars. Obviously this is a very small minority of people. But your comment is still a complete blanket statement with no consideration for food insecurity and indigenous cultures across the Americas.
Damn so you growing your own food or are the mexicans still picking it for you?
Nothing is cheaper than lentils and beans. Meat is far more expensive.
I'm not a vegan but I primarily have a vegetarian diet for this reason
Yet you posted this from an iPhone?
We need an emote of the orange shirt guy from the Bors comic.
As a liberal with a tesla I don't have to care about global warming because I already did my part!
I think this may be my least favorite struggle session of all. The self righteousness on display is palpable, even compared to other leftist infighting
what if i flip NFT art and grift bougie millionaires out of money
I think it depends on what and how much can you avoid/not avoid it. Like the concept of food on its own you have to eat and not everyone has access to a yard they can use as a garden to grow their own food, or time/travel to do it elsewhere. So even the most ethical food you can get within those constraints is still probably done with slave labor at some point of the supply chain.
In a similar sense, in order to function in a modern society you pretty much need some form of computer and smartphone. But you should try to reuse old tech as long as possible and minimize upgrading. If your phone can last 5 years keep it those five, don't just buy the newest and coolest stuff because you're lucky enough to be up in the capitalist system where you can afford to do such. The excuse of necessity doesn't travel far past the necessity part
I actually agree with this fully...obviously we should do what we can, where we can. My beef (pun totally intended) is when folks pretend like doing one specific thing matters more than doing any other specific thing. Not everyone has the same situation, not everything is as easy as "just do it!!", and ultimately "doing less capitalism" is not the same thing as "getting rid of capitalism."
I have nothing but repsect for vegans, or for anyone trying to do better in whatever way they can. I too try to do better in my own way when I can; I shop only at union stores when I can, I attend local community meetings, I try to minimize my waste, I care about my carbon footprint and try to minimize it, etc, etc...there's tons of things we each can and should do. But attacking someone for not doing a thing that any individual thinks is "easier" or "more impactful" is just a complete waste of everyone's time. That's what gets me down.
We have to participate in capitalism yeah
But almost no one has to eat meat :big-cool:
there's a time when all humans didn't live under capitalism but there was never a time when all humans didn't eat meat :big-cool:
Oh good, now we know "return to monkey" is the way to be true leftists. We just have to adjust our diets to comport with early precursors to homo sapiens from 2.8 million years ago!
Surely that is what the other user meant when they said "humans."
Maybe the slavery comparisons are good actually because these threads are like if the abolitionist formed a subculture in the 1800s around not wearing cotton and the ensuing discussion revolved around whether you are in the superior subculture or not.
Yeah so who's got some penny stocks for me? Also why don't we get some pump and dumps going?
