this site is full of cishet dudes with good relationships with their family and a non-zero amount of generational wealth, and those people also tend to have good relationships with our current education system
schooling is a synonym for education. this is a distinction that's coming out of nowhere to make this take seem less stupid.
you take a group of children doing perfect intersectional communist education and put them under the same roof its a fucking school. and people are allowed to argue against de-centralised homeschooling, it's not reactionary to want professionals to handle education.
Professionalized education fosters a division of labor, since it requires professional (at least) teachers, if not also custodians, counselors, cops, disciplinarians, principles, curriculum directors, etc.
Communists are opposed to this, of course. Not just Marx with his famous quote
in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.
Similarly, Stalin wanted to give every soviet citizen a multi-trade technical education allowing them to move between jobs freely.
On the anarchists' side, Perlman argued against the professionalization of life,
A time-and-motion engineer watching a bear near a berry patch would not know when to punch his clock. Does the bear start working when he walks to the berry patch, when he picks the berry, when he opens his jaws? If the engineer has half a brain he might say the bear makes no distinction between work and play. If the engineer has an imagination he might say that the bear experiences joy from the moment the berries turn deep red, and that none of the bear’s motions are work.
So a communist school would not have teachers. People in the community would learn pedagogical strategies as they were interested. Pupils would study as apprentices, students, and book club members as they wanted or as the need arose. As communists, we cannot just hope this will happen, instead we need to oppose professionalism and build non-commodified institutions.
Even in a communist society there will be specialisation. There is no such thing as unskilled labour and everything from baking a loaf of bread or laying bricks to brain surgery takes training and experience to be done well. The thing about fishing in the afternoon and being an art critic after dinner doesn't mean that everyone will be capable of doing everything, it means that the individual will be free to develop their skills according to their talents and interests without being forced into a rigid system where you are locked into a discrete career path from an early age where some paths available to only the select few brings wealth and social status and others brings nothing but toil.
Teaching is a skill that you have to learn to do well. In a communist society there would still be people who spend more time teaching and studying didactics, developmental psychology, pedagogical methods etc. than most other people. You could call them teachers although they would also do other types of work to the benefit of society.
I think we mostly agree. I was arguing against people only being teachers, and being paid to be teachers, as opposed to being given the resources to exist and thrive no matter what. In universities, people are often researchers and teachers, or accountants and teachers, or lawyers and teachers. This is one way you could do that. Socializing people into social roles through other institutions like apprenticeship, or in the family (as rich people and many tradesmen already do) is another.
So my objection isn't to "being locked into a discrete career path from an early age," but simply being locked into a career path. I believe that would have downstream effects such as the dissolution of boundaries between roles like teacher, parent, tradesman, or scientist
am I missing some context here? I’m reading that the original twitter thread wants to replace education with “look things up on the internet” and obviously that’s bad but I don’t see it in the screenshot.
Yeah, but you could kind of tell the take wasn't going to be good because if they simply meant "abolish schools not education" they would have said so when the Mason dude was confused.
Most people ask what to do about rapists, current or future, and then the anarchists' suitcase full of jellybeans explodes all over the floor as they try to describe communal law officers without calling them police.
I'm not sure which is more lib: thinking that the police have done anything significant to end rape, or thinking that semantics is an epic gotcha moment.
That's not semantics, it's describing literally what structures will exist to help people in need and anarchists do the "ho ho ho, dear lib, I'll never taint myself with a material description of the system I hope to replace." Literally worthless rhetoric.
Just fuckin' describe the system you want to replace the current with to people. It's all I'm asking. Arrogant "dunks" do literally nothing for anyone.
Meanwhile complaining about "the anarchists" using such horrid terminology as "abolish the police" on a bear themed podcast site in the middle of the night is definitely doing everything for everyone. :shrug-outta-hecks:
No, but I literally want to abolish the state lol. Normal people do tend to think it sounds insane, because they have been taught to conflate abstract quantities like education and security with specific capitalist institutions. You gotta point out the distinction to them or they will be insanely confused.
yeah, i guess you kinda have to answer silent but obvious questions the twitter reply guys aren't going to say out loud
i guess ultimately what i'm getting at here is that i lacked the vision to imagine the average person going through school and then not being interested in the topic of abolishing schools so i interpreted the "insane-sounding thing" part wrong, sorry
imagine the average person going through school and then not being interested in the topic of abolishing schools
Tbh that's a great point that I hadn't thought of. My mind went to the STEM-worshiping types of liberals who think the answer to everything is more school funding
Very few people are familiar with leftist thinking and the average person have a hard time imagining radical change. They have been brought up assuming politics is just about making small adjustments to the status quo and presuppose that everything else will be left in place exactly as it is now when they hear a proposal.
When someone talks about abolishing schools and police most people hear "abolish schools and police and leave the rest of the capitalist system intact", which would be an insane proposal, not "abolish schools and police as part of a radical change of society".
Because the modern left sucks at communication and propaganda. The capitalists have billion dollar industries dedicated to manipulate people's minds using scientific methods while we're still a bunch of amateurs stabbing in the dark.
Except the insane-sounding thing here was meant as way more reasonable position that any normal person would have clarified like a million comments ago for the first time and it's clear to anyone who read even one paragraph of anarchist pedagogy, which promotes insane-sounding thing since the start.
Link where they say you can teach people in some sort of collectivized fashion that isn't going to happen in some form that one could describe as a school.
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:10000-com:
schooling is a synonym for education. this is a distinction that's coming out of nowhere to make this take seem less stupid.
you take a group of children doing perfect intersectional communist education and put them under the same roof its a fucking school. and people are allowed to argue against de-centralised homeschooling, it's not reactionary to want professionals to handle education.
Professionalized education fosters a division of labor, since it requires professional (at least) teachers, if not also custodians, counselors, cops, disciplinarians, principles, curriculum directors, etc.
Communists are opposed to this, of course. Not just Marx with his famous quote
Similarly, Stalin wanted to give every soviet citizen a multi-trade technical education allowing them to move between jobs freely.
On the anarchists' side, Perlman argued against the professionalization of life,
So a communist school would not have teachers. People in the community would learn pedagogical strategies as they were interested. Pupils would study as apprentices, students, and book club members as they wanted or as the need arose. As communists, we cannot just hope this will happen, instead we need to oppose professionalism and build non-commodified institutions.
Even in a communist society there will be specialisation. There is no such thing as unskilled labour and everything from baking a loaf of bread or laying bricks to brain surgery takes training and experience to be done well. The thing about fishing in the afternoon and being an art critic after dinner doesn't mean that everyone will be capable of doing everything, it means that the individual will be free to develop their skills according to their talents and interests without being forced into a rigid system where you are locked into a discrete career path from an early age where some paths available to only the select few brings wealth and social status and others brings nothing but toil.
Teaching is a skill that you have to learn to do well. In a communist society there would still be people who spend more time teaching and studying didactics, developmental psychology, pedagogical methods etc. than most other people. You could call them teachers although they would also do other types of work to the benefit of society.
I think we mostly agree. I was arguing against people only being teachers, and being paid to be teachers, as opposed to being given the resources to exist and thrive no matter what. In universities, people are often researchers and teachers, or accountants and teachers, or lawyers and teachers. This is one way you could do that. Socializing people into social roles through other institutions like apprenticeship, or in the family (as rich people and many tradesmen already do) is another.
So my objection isn't to "being locked into a discrete career path from an early age," but simply being locked into a career path. I believe that would have downstream effects such as the dissolution of boundaries between roles like teacher, parent, tradesman, or scientist
Yeah, but you could kind of tell the take wasn't going to be good because if they simply meant "abolish schools not education" they would have said so when the Mason dude was confused.
they literally did tho
Why does this happen so much?
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"It only happens when you view things in bad faith, you fucking piece of shit liberal"
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Yeah generally posting just a hot take without like explanation seems bad and inflammatory
Hottest take wins
What sounds insane about "abolish the schools"? Do you think "abolish the police" sounds insane?
Most people ask what to do about rapists, current or future, and then the anarchists' suitcase full of jellybeans explodes all over the floor as they try to describe communal law officers without calling them police.
I'm not sure which is more lib: thinking that the police have done anything significant to end rape, or thinking that semantics is an epic gotcha moment.
That's not semantics, it's describing literally what structures will exist to help people in need and anarchists do the "ho ho ho, dear lib, I'll never taint myself with a material description of the system I hope to replace." Literally worthless rhetoric.
So now we're on the "shapiro-tier strawman from somebody who has never genuinely asked an anarchist about police" level of posting I see.
Just fuckin' describe the system you want to replace the current with to people. It's all I'm asking. Arrogant "dunks" do literally nothing for anyone.
Meanwhile complaining about "the anarchists" using such horrid terminology as "abolish the police" on a bear themed podcast site in the middle of the night is definitely doing everything for everyone. :shrug-outta-hecks:
The police you live under right now are not what police have to be.
yep
You can still call them police. Them name isn't the problem.
yeah
yeah
No, but I literally want to abolish the state lol. Normal people do tend to think it sounds insane, because they have been taught to conflate abstract quantities like education and security with specific capitalist institutions. You gotta point out the distinction to them or they will be insanely confused.
yeah, i guess you kinda have to answer silent but obvious questions the twitter reply guys aren't going to say out loud
i guess ultimately what i'm getting at here is that i lacked the vision to imagine the average person going through school and then not being interested in the topic of abolishing schools so i interpreted the "insane-sounding thing" part wrong, sorry
Tbh that's a great point that I hadn't thought of. My mind went to the STEM-worshiping types of liberals who think the answer to everything is more school funding
Very few people are familiar with leftist thinking and the average person have a hard time imagining radical change. They have been brought up assuming politics is just about making small adjustments to the status quo and presuppose that everything else will be left in place exactly as it is now when they hear a proposal.
When someone talks about abolishing schools and police most people hear "abolish schools and police and leave the rest of the capitalist system intact", which would be an insane proposal, not "abolish schools and police as part of a radical change of society".
Welcome to the bird site. It doesn't get better.
Because the modern left sucks at communication and propaganda. The capitalists have billion dollar industries dedicated to manipulate people's minds using scientific methods while we're still a bunch of amateurs stabbing in the dark.
Except the insane-sounding thing here was meant as way more reasonable position that any normal person would have clarified like a million comments ago for the first time and it's clear to anyone who read even one paragraph of anarchist pedagogy, which promotes insane-sounding thing since the start.
"You have to have read anarchist pedagogy to understand my post!"
?
What?
Huh?
Eh?
Pardon?
Excuse moi?
Mi scusi?
Ορίστε;
Tessék?
Παρακαλώ;
link the theory lol
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Link where they say you can teach people in some sort of collectivized fashion that isn't going to happen in some form that one could describe as a school.
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So you admit this anarcho-whatever is literally just making a pointless argument of semantics then to sound radical.
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Yeah that is r*ddit debate style. It will not fly here.
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