watch this b4 commenting https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PGjSv3x0fuk
I totally thought that Mike Pompeo cared about Muslims until i saw that video thanks.
Bold prediction: Information about the conditions of Xinjiang will conveniently be released only when the US wants to deflect off the abuses its committing against domestic protestors.
The "Genocide against muslims is bad" part is about China in context though, so it needed saying.
I know the word cultural genocide is misused by the right wing, but they're abducting people without cause and indoctrinating them, and they admit that.
They aren't doing anything anymore. They DID, taking a small number somewhere in the few thousand and giving them re-education, but that stopped last December when they graduated and all centres were closed. Everything that has been spewed since then has been regurgitating content from before the closures. They've been closed for over 6 months now.
Only China saying it, which libs will obviously claim is untrue. There hasn't been one new piece of content since last December though for a reason -- because there's no new content to make.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50712126
We have walkthroughs of empty centres though: https://youtu.be/yFxrI6smvFU
Taking what any government says at face value especially when it involves forcefully putting people into camps is not a smart thing to do.
It has been 7 fucking months since ANY new content on the """"camps"""". Xinjiang is not a closed place. Anyone can go there. There is no new content because there are no camps. Stop clinging to this.
Any discussion of Xinjiang should start with the number 2.4 million, because that's how many Iraqis the U.S. invasion of Iraq killed.
If someone insists on calling China genocidal because they think a few million Muslims are imprisoned, what the fuck do they call butchering a few million Muslims over non-existent WMDs?
I don't know who this guy is but people really gotta think critically about western propaganda before they talk about this topic, I'm sure china is probably doing some nasty stuff, but so is the USA. They also are often the target of BS propaganda from the USA.
I’m sure china is probably doing some nasty stuff
Note that -- without any contradiction -- you can simultaneously believe:
- China is not genociding 9,387 jabillion innocent people, and
- China is not a flawless utopian state that does absolutely nothing wrong.
The argument isn't that China is perfect, the argument is that U.S. propaganda about China is largely nonsense.
The video basically argues that it is fine to put people in camps if that increases their productivity.
That's a little facile. China is literally trying to combat extremism that's being fomented by the West. I don't know if there's a clean solution for that but deprogramming is part of it. So far as I've seen and heard, these camps aren't forced labor or brutal conditions.
Reeducation to force ethnic groups to assimilate, combining this with economic interests, and arguing that you are just trying to fight extremists is a way of reasoning that we shouldn't be complacent with.
So far as I’ve seen and heard, these camps aren’t forced labor or brutal conditions.
Which unfortunately does not mean much because there is so little information about it. How secretive it is and how hard it is to find information about the conditions does not give me much faith from a humanitarian perspective.
Reeducation to force ethnic groups to assimilate
Which is not what's happening.
Take a look at this, as it has hardly been secretive. Also your inability to find neutral or even pro-Chinese content in the West should not dictate the faith you have as you will have difficulty doing that.
Anyway if you look at the source I sent you, you'll see that the information provided is pretty open but Western media is deliberately changing it. The vast majority of sources on these camps comes from Adrian Zenz who is a born-again anti-Communist idiot.
That's a good source, thanks for sharing it.
It's still forced reeducation with a racially/ethnically charged definition of who needs reeducation. You seem to be giving it the benefit of the doubt because there's no information beyond that, but it's not the first such program and they don't have a good track record. If Canada decided to start reeducating First Peoples again, would you give them the benefit of the doubt?
(And to be clear - I don't think the NYT is being honest with this either. Again, they didn't start pushing for sanctions when it happened in Canada. They're here because it's ammunition for manufacturing anti-China sentiment, not because they suddenly started caring about human rights.)
It’s still forced reeducation with a racially/ethnically charged definition of who needs reeducation.
On what do you base this statement?
You seem to be giving it the benefit of the doubt because there’s no information beyond that
I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt based on what I have read and that China is a Communist state, and as a Communist myself, I don't have reason to doubt them. Provided other information to do so, I would, as I'm not an idiot and I know that other Communist states have made missteps in this area.
it’s not the first such program and they don’t have a good track record.
What others do you know of?
If Canada decided to start reeducating First Peoples again, would you give them the benefit of the doubt?
Canada is a colonial settler capitalist state so I wouldn't trust them with a houseplant.
Obviously we disagree about how much we should automatically trust the Chinese government because they label themselves Communist (as if that's the source of all good and doing the right thing isn't hard, and a process), or how much we should place all the blame for all human rights violations at the feet of capitalism and colonialism (which... capitalism exasperates all problems, but it's not the root cause of all evil. Evil predates capitalism).
And I'm happy to just let you be weirdly idealistic about the labels people choose for themselves. But you don't need to be an absolute butt about it. What are you even doing with these two replies below? Are you being intentionally obtuse because you think that'll win you some sort of debate points? Are you trying to waste the time of anyone who might disagree with you? Is that any way to treat someone who's on your side?
On what do you base this statement?
Literally the article you posted. Where they talk about forcing people to go to go to schools. Because of a specifically Muslim-targeted brand of terrorist ideology.
it’s not the first such program and they don’t have a good track record.
The next sentence of my post. Which you also quoted.
Obviously we disagree about how much we should automatically trust the Chinese government because they label themselves Communist
China is Communist, full stop. You may not like how they're doing it, but they're still a Communist state. If you have a critique of it, certainly go ahead, but there's no denying their political orientation.
And I’m happy to just let you be weirdly idealistic about the labels people choose for themselves.
Okay?
But you don’t need to be an absolute butt about it.
This feels ironic in light of your prior statement. I'm also not sure what you're talking about.
What are you even doing with these two replies below? Are you being intentionally obtuse because you think that’ll win you some sort of debate points? Are you trying to waste the time of anyone who might disagree with you? Is that any way to treat someone who’s on your side?
Are you referring to a discussion I'm having outside of my thread with you?
Literally the article you posted. Where they talk about forcing people to go to go to schools. Because of a specifically Muslim-targeted brand of terrorist ideology.
It sounds like if you're using that source to draw that conclusion then you have added your own interpretation, and that's why I'm curious where you get your interpretation.
The next sentence of my post. Which you also quoted.
Which other programs has China done and their track record with it? That's what I was asking.
Take a look at this, as it has hardly been secretive.
What is this supposed to prove? Yes, the Chinese governments admits their existence (there is no way around it) and uses very euphemistic terms to describe them. You are saying that re-education and forced assimilation isn't happening but a quote from what you linked:
[...] one shouldn’t underestimate the power of terrorist indoctrination, which they can only overcome by going to school, learning Chinese, and picking up technical skills
The FAQ proceeds to compare going to school to seeking medical treatment — one may refuse to seek treatment thinking his/her condition isn’t severe, when in fact it is severe or might become severe in the future.
Imprisoning millions, forcing them to learn Chinese and whatever "knowledge" they require to be allowed to leave, and separating families to "educate" the children in different prisons, is very much what you are denying. The Chinese government giving a euphemistic FAQ to children who can't reach their parents anymore does not make it less secretive.
What is this supposed to prove?
I mean it's mostly supposed to prove that the New York Times and other sources have vastly exaggerated or speculated on claims rather than investigating them, but okay.
uses very euphemistic terms to describe them.
This is an assumption on your part.
You are saying that re-education and forced assimilation isn’t happening
I still am, it looks to me that again China's aim is to deprogram Western attempts to radicalize Muslim populations in Western China.
Imprisoning millions, forcing them to learn Chinese and whatever “knowledge” they require to be allowed to leave, and separating families to “educate” the children in different prisons, is very much what you are denying.
That's a whole lot of scare quotes for something you're speculating on. You also didn't talk about Adrian Zenz at all, which is extremely relevant as that's been the West's primary source on this shit.
I mean it’s mostly supposed to prove that the New York Times and other sources have vastly exaggerated or speculated on claims rather than investigating them, but okay.
But why? This wasn't part of the discussion.
This is an assumption on your part.
They are euphemistic because the language used is trying to downplay the gravity of it.
I still am, it looks to me that again China’s aim is to deprogram Western attempts to radicalize Muslim populations in Western China.
They don't have to be western attempts. Even if they would be, how they are doing and justifying it is still very problematic.
That’s a whole lot of scare quotes for something you’re speculating on.
I am not speculating. That is what they are saying. They are saying that they have been indoctrinated and that it can be a long process to re-educate them. We are talking about a whole population here. The separation of families is also not speculation.
You also didn’t talk about Adrian Zenz at all, which is extremely relevant as that’s been the West’s primary source on this shit.
Please stop trying to force a discussion about some western narrative into it, as if this would add anything to the topic.
Please stop trying to force a discussion about some western narrative into it, as if this would add anything to the topic.
It's highly relevant to this discussion because the sources people are using to back up these claims include the New York Times, which was instrumental in legitimizing similarly unfounded claims about WMDs in Iraq. Claims of genocide fall into the same category as claims of impending attack: they both provide a casus belli to other countries. This is all war marketing.
But why? This wasn’t part of the discussion.
You can open the scope of a discussion, that is totally allowed.
They are euphemistic because the language used is trying to downplay the gravity of it.
This is still an assumption on your part.
They don’t have to be western attempts. Even if they would be, how they are doing and justifying it is still very problematic.
Yet they are, and what do you know of what they're doing and justifying it beyond sources from an anti-communist evangelical?
Please stop trying to force a discussion about some western narrative into it, as if this would add anything to the topic.
Where do you get your sources on China? Are you in China? Are you of Chinese descent? Do you live among the Uyghurs? How do you know what's happening?
I completely agree, tbh. I don't understand why people are defending this violation of human rights. Which it is, regardless if they're beating people or not. They're abducting people without cause and keeping them till they're ideologically indoctrinated. They admit this, even in the video OP linked. This is very obviously a vile control tactic. To defenders of this: I critically support you in your fight against American imperialism, and in your fight against capitalism, but to defend this is to violate your principles and I hope you come to realize that.
What would be your solution to the problems of extremism, terrorism, separatism, poverty etc that are present in Xinjiang? I am not trying to be snarky, I am genuinely curious about what would be the better way to handle this.
I would simply not abduct people without cause. If people are doing a terrorism, I would arrest them. Simple as that.
Why I imagine we'd kindly give each of them a Red Delicious apple and a gentle schoolmarm to show them the error of their ways as befits Americana
Thank you people for a vivid discussion. I was so sick of completeanachry and either "did nothing wrong" or "it's just as bad as the media tells us" attitutes.
alright focker, I watched the entire video. Only because I'm amazed it took them so long to start producing english language media of this quality. I'm ready for Al-Jazeera 2010 level investigative journalism with Chinese characteristics (and Chinese budget).
Google “proles of the roundtable ian goodrum” listen to the whole thing, eat my poop, then recycle that poop onto my chest... sniff it real good, listen to that podcast again... then reply to me again.
You know, I read the papers, and I still think this is an egregious violation of human rights. I think that you should be ashamed of yourself for supporting it. I'm even a tankie! This should be very obvious to anyone with a conscious. The state is abducting and punishing people who have not committed crimes. If you're a supporter of this, I'd legit like an explanation on how this is okay.
Hell of a read. "Victims of Communism" organization loser just lying his ass off, what a shitstain.
This is why when people say they think it's a violation of human rights, I want to know where they get their info from
Your moms pussy is an egregious violation of human rights
