It's because C.S. Lewis is a hack. It's the British highbrow version of a PureFlix movie. Lewis started with "how can I make an allegory about Christianity into a book series?" and then made a really ham-handed, over-the-top version of it. It cracks me up that him and Tolkien were friends, because Tolkien is not only an epically good writer, but he specifically and clearly hated allegory. He hated allegory like we hate the libs. And he's got this buddy here who's like "JRR do you like my story? See Aslan is actually supposed to be Jesus!" I don't know how Tolkien didn't laugh in his face.
I actually think Lewis can be an ok writer at times. His logic is appalling and he's on a Jordan Peterson level of philosophical understanding... but there are times when he can string some very beautiful words and thoughts together. But that's about it.
I mean he says that but read The Scouring of the Shire and tell me thats not Tolkien doing some allegory about industrialization destroying his idllyic conception of rural England.
Doing an allegory isn't even a bad thing, don't know why he thought it was so sus.
its how i radicalize ;) umm hunger games is actually imperialism! seriously you are district 1 and the kid who made your clothes is district 12. you’re the bad guy sucking resources from them for your oppulent wasteful lifestyle.
that usually makes them uncomfortable at least and hopefully they advance the contradictions in the correct direction 🤷♂️
honestly it always blows my mind when writers or storytellers in general are terrified of using allegory or tropes in general - like, whether you like it or not you will have those in the story so you probably ought to be more self-reflective about what you're writing instead of just vomiting out your racist id
Tolkien is not only an epically good writer, but he specifically and clearly hated allegory. He hated allegory like we hate the libs.
Is that why he wrote a story where a literal angel helps some mortals defeat satan by denying their own pride and greed, just with the names changed around to sound more faux-celtic?
Tolkien can say whatever he wants but the tropes and allegories and real world parallels are clear as day. Evil dark skinned southerners? Untrustworthy elitist wizards in ivory towers who will betray you to the invading dark hordes? Orcs as evil dark skinned muscular creatures who threaten the idyllic white countryside. The rural perfect shire destroyed by machines and industry. Dwarves who have big noses and go mad for treasure and gold?
I mean come on it’s pretty obvious that he had absorbed some real shit from his racist colonialist society whether he knew it or not
I do like the books, and I do like some of the themes (destroying the ring of power instead of abusing it, the decline of human civilization)
Dwarves who have big noses and go mad for treasure and gold?
Did Tolkien ever explicately state they were an allegory for Jews? cuz if not I’ve never thought that made much sense.
Yes Dwarves love gold and jewels, but they also mine those gold and jewels themselves with pickaxes and swole dwarf arms, and they’re also known for being stubborn and aggressive and love drinking and fighting. Jews are usually stereotyped as physically weak and so have to rely on schemes and trickery to thrive. I don’t see many antisemetic 4chan memes of Jews drinking tankards of ale after a long day of smelting battle axes, or fantasy books where Dwarves use loan sharking scheme to destabilize a Goblin kingdom.
Did Tolkien ever explicately state they were an allegory for Jews?
He absolutely did, yes. The dwarvish language of Khuzdul is even based on Hebrew. It wasn't intended to be a denigrating comparison, though. The dwarves were the heroes in The Hobbit.
Also, anti-Semitic stereotypes in the early 20th century are different than today. There was indeed stereotypes of them being good at wrestling and fighting, being unhygienic and unshaven & short.
It’s a feudal society, it wouldn’t make much sense for dwarves to have complex financial schemes. They do get mentioned as hoarders and stealers though, and their greed attracts a dragon which the humans have to fight off for them.
There was indeed stereotypes of them being good at wrestling and fighting, being unhygienic and unshaven & short.
Really? That's pretty stark contrast to the stereotypes of Jews I encounter today, usually they're portrayed as kinda nerdy, orderly and necrotic, "smelly bearded wrestler" isn't really what pops into my head when I think of Jews.
Edit: Also didn't the idea of Jews being bankers come from the fact there were one of the few people who were doing banking in the feudal era? I've never known Jews to be associated with mining or metallurgy so that element of the dwarves is weird.
I don't know why you guys are acting like Tolkien invented dwarves. He cribbed them from Norse and German mythology basically wholesale. They were already an established thing, short, mythologically good at smithing, often insular and hostile.
this series was weird as fuck
It's because C.S. Lewis is a hack. It's the British highbrow version of a PureFlix movie. Lewis started with "how can I make an allegory about Christianity into a book series?" and then made a really ham-handed, over-the-top version of it. It cracks me up that him and Tolkien were friends, because Tolkien is not only an epically good writer, but he specifically and clearly hated allegory. He hated allegory like we hate the libs. And he's got this buddy here who's like "JRR do you like my story? See Aslan is actually supposed to be Jesus!" I don't know how Tolkien didn't laugh in his face.
I actually think Lewis can be an ok writer at times. His logic is appalling and he's on a Jordan Peterson level of philosophical understanding... but there are times when he can string some very beautiful words and thoughts together. But that's about it.
I mean he says that but read The Scouring of the Shire and tell me thats not Tolkien doing some allegory about industrialization destroying his idllyic conception of rural England.
Doing an allegory isn't even a bad thing, don't know why he thought it was so sus.
Yeah allegories are one of the only ways to speak to libs about leftist thought
its how i radicalize ;) umm hunger games is actually imperialism! seriously you are district 1 and the kid who made your clothes is district 12. you’re the bad guy sucking resources from them for your oppulent wasteful lifestyle.
that usually makes them uncomfortable at least and hopefully they advance the contradictions in the correct direction 🤷♂️
I need to reread that series. Haven't thought about it since sixth grade or so.
its not very good but has some decent threads to it i think
honestly it always blows my mind when writers or storytellers in general are terrified of using allegory or tropes in general - like, whether you like it or not you will have those in the story so you probably ought to be more self-reflective about what you're writing instead of just vomiting out your racist id
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Blame Tolkien for converting C.S Lewis to Christianity. It's almost like a karmic punishment.
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Man am I glad I read rick riordan instead of CS Lewser
Percy Jackson is still a great series.
Rick Riordan kicks major ass and I haven’t heard a bad take from him once.
Is that why he wrote a story where a literal angel helps some mortals defeat satan by denying their own pride and greed, just with the names changed around to sound more faux-celtic?
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Tolkien can say whatever he wants but the tropes and allegories and real world parallels are clear as day. Evil dark skinned southerners? Untrustworthy elitist wizards in ivory towers who will betray you to the invading dark hordes? Orcs as evil dark skinned muscular creatures who threaten the idyllic white countryside. The rural perfect shire destroyed by machines and industry. Dwarves who have big noses and go mad for treasure and gold?
I mean come on it’s pretty obvious that he had absorbed some real shit from his racist colonialist society whether he knew it or not
I do like the books, and I do like some of the themes (destroying the ring of power instead of abusing it, the decline of human civilization)
Did Tolkien ever explicately state they were an allegory for Jews? cuz if not I’ve never thought that made much sense.
Yes Dwarves love gold and jewels, but they also mine those gold and jewels themselves with pickaxes and swole dwarf arms, and they’re also known for being stubborn and aggressive and love drinking and fighting. Jews are usually stereotyped as physically weak and so have to rely on schemes and trickery to thrive. I don’t see many antisemetic 4chan memes of Jews drinking tankards of ale after a long day of smelting battle axes, or fantasy books where Dwarves use loan sharking scheme to destabilize a Goblin kingdom.
He absolutely did, yes. The dwarvish language of Khuzdul is even based on Hebrew. It wasn't intended to be a denigrating comparison, though. The dwarves were the heroes in The Hobbit.
I always saw the dwarves as the proletarians of middle earth. Hobbits were kinda peasants and elves were the inteligista.
Allegories and metaphors aren’t usually 1:1
Also, anti-Semitic stereotypes in the early 20th century are different than today. There was indeed stereotypes of them being good at wrestling and fighting, being unhygienic and unshaven & short.
It’s a feudal society, it wouldn’t make much sense for dwarves to have complex financial schemes. They do get mentioned as hoarders and stealers though, and their greed attracts a dragon which the humans have to fight off for them.
Really? That's pretty stark contrast to the stereotypes of Jews I encounter today, usually they're portrayed as kinda nerdy, orderly and necrotic, "smelly bearded wrestler" isn't really what pops into my head when I think of Jews.
Edit: Also didn't the idea of Jews being bankers come from the fact there were one of the few people who were doing banking in the feudal era? I've never known Jews to be associated with mining or metallurgy so that element of the dwarves is weird.
Yeah, something about usury laws I think.
I don't know why you guys are acting like Tolkien invented dwarves. He cribbed them from Norse and German mythology basically wholesale. They were already an established thing, short, mythologically good at smithing, often insular and hostile.