how are we doing today gang? i think i caught a cold from flyering at pride last week
. honestly i feel a little bummed that pride month is over, june is my favorite month and there aren't any more good holidays till Halloween. I guess I'm ready for summer to be over.
come chat vent and joke! em poc only!!
I was talking to my closest friend tonight about the concept of hiring discrimination and it got heated. The topic of diversity quotas came up, which, as far as I'm concerned, is an overblown right wing culture war talking point, but she fully believes that it's an issue because she "doesn't believe in discrimination."
I believe her, she's genuinely a good person, but I also think that things like diversity quotas were put in place because white people historically cannot be trusted to not be biased against minorities. It's a measure to combat institutional discrimination. She agreed, and she couldn't think of a better alternative to diversity mandates since you can't "force people to be good," but she still thought they were wrong.
Her argument frustrated me because it sounded a lot like she was saying that people were only being hired because of diversity quotas, which is ridiculous and I think where the argument becomes unabashedly racist. To be considered for a job, in my mind, you have to be capable of actually doing it. Therefore someone hired where diversity tipped it in their favour is already also capable of doing the job, else they wouldn't be considered. The white PhD is not going to be passed over for any POC off the street, but if there's also a POC PhD in the running, and the company has a 90% white work force, what is the issue in hiring the POC PhD? She didn't accept the idea that the POC candidates aren't being hired purely for diversity reasons and I think this is a result of white American brainworms.
I think I could have done a better job of representing the argument but I probably don't understand the topic as well as I think I do. I dismiss a lot of the points as culture war nonsense not worth thinking about. Are 'diversity quotas' actually as prevalent as white people think they are? What are some stronger thoughts on this whole topic? Am I even making the correct argument here?
I'm feeling pretty down about this because she's literally my closest friend and it sucks to hear her make these kinds of arguments.
It's bullshit, I work at probably the most woke tech company in the world and women are 20-25% of coders, and I know 3 black coders out of hundreds. I know 0 Hispanic coders here
All 3 are pretty average as an employee, from rich families, and got hired out of school from Stanford, Harvard, ?
So as usual, family income is the best predictor for career success lol
Maybe someone that is more well read can add a bit more to what I'm going to say, but I'm pretty sure studies on diversity hires finds that they almost always are just as, if not more highly qualified than their white counterparts. The argument that a diversity hire is indeed taking the job from a more qualified white candidate is a right-wing talking point for sure.
I honestly think you did a good job of representing your side of your argument given it was an on the spot conversation. If you really feel like it, you could always find and provide her with some of the studies that have been done on the subject.
Also one final point I would have made is what would be her solution. If she does believe that there is discrimination and people can't be "forced to be good", what will happen to all of these POC who are qualified, but aren't being hired?
Somewhat related too, but I had a co-worker, also a POC, bring up diversity hiring as well. He's got conservative views and is all in on chud news/content on social media. He's talked about how DEI is a problem before. But yesterday he was talking about how Republicans helped pass affirmative action laws. I corrected him on that point because the revisionism lol. But I also made sure to add, yeah affirmative action laws are necessary but conservatives are trying to reverse a lot of them with their anti-DEI movement.
Thanks comrade. I think I might look up those studies and send them her way. She literally did not have an alternative answer for how to combat hiring bias but said she still could not "support discrimination." I argued calling it 'discrimination' in this context is highly political, because it's starting from a position of the white candidate always being more qualified than a 'diversity hire,' which is just untrue.
I think she wants a world where everyone is judged on merit alone, but that world isn't this one. Crackers hire crackers because of their own internal biases which then reinforces the idea that they are the most qualified candidate. Diversity quotas come in to disrupt those biases and in response the conversation shifts to white people losing jobs to unqualified 'diversity hires' (even the term irks me). Somehow, someway, white people always manage to make themselves the victims.
Your argument was fine.
I think a lot of white people created the idea of how POC are treated in their mind and just go with it as fact. This is over the course of a few decades and is enriched in the many myths of the us. I've had this argument with many people and even if we agreed the candidates were equal, they still didn't accept picking the POC person(most likely Black) was anything but discrimination. I really don't get why but you're right that no company will hire someone that's unqualified just because they have a quota. Ask them back if both were equally qualified but one was an underrepresented gender or disabled would they still feel the same?
Thanks comrade. I really find the discussion draining and exhausting, especially coming from someone who I love a lot. I understand now when people say you have to work twice as hard as your white counterparts as a woman or POC to be recognised.
I mean, I think that's a result of being a racist—which is included in the American brainworms package, I suppose.
If she thinks the literal only reason POC are being hired is for diversity requirements, implying they otherwise wouldn't attain a job in 'equal' competition with Whites, then I think she's just actually racist. All POC are not qualified to do their jobs?
Yeah, that's my frustration with that line of logic too. Once again, I've known her for a very long time and know she's a good person and isn't actually a racist, that's the reason why I say white American brainworms. They get pumped with that propaganda day in, day out. All the 'woke' nonsense, all the 'DEI' garbage that's become popular in recent years which having a take like this this directly relates to. It doesn't hurt any less though.
I mean, whats the difference from believing the exact same shit as a racist while denying being racist and actually being a racist if they act the same
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What is the difference between "internalized biases" and just bigotry if they choose not to work through them and double down?
Is thinking that poc can be just as capable as whites an "unattainable level of purity" to you?
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I think what they're trying to say is you can think they're a good person and they can genuinely have good intentions and they can genuinely believe that they're not racist, and yet still be racist. You knowing them and being their friend isn't a sufficient argument, it's the flip side of "My best friend is Black!”
I'm not necessarily saying they're a skinhead, Neo-Nazi asshole, but your friend sounds like an actual racist.
Damn you seem to know a lot about his friend, comrade. Maybe you should talk to them
Send me their number, I'll let them know I think they're racist based off a racist position it was stated that they firmly hold.
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Okay. I hear you, comrade. But you missed the entire point. I never said they were a bad person, quite the opposite.
And, yeah, you're right, this isn't reddit. You posted to a Leftist thread of BIPOC and said your friend held some racist ideas that you qualified for them because they're your friend. If I have to explain to you why that might make someone here respond to you as I have, which has been respectful so far, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Dude. I honestly don't know what your problem is anymore and you're starting to irritate me. At first I thought maybe I did something but I really don't anymore.
Can you please point to one thing I said that was disrespectful? Someone saying your friend is racist for having racist beliefs isn't an insult, even if they are your closest friend. And how did I not disengage? I didn't respond further to any points other than to say I don't think your friend is a bad person and if you uncritically bring up someone being racist on a Leftist BIPOC thread you shouldn't be shocked that someone tells you that maybe they're racist. By "disengage" did you mean "don't reply" because that's very different and, honestly, I don't take well to that either. Block me if you want but don't tell me when I can and can't reply to a comment when I'm in no way harming or harassing or anything. If I need to shut up then I'll take the order from Othello, who I also checked in with to see if I was in the wrong here but now I don't think I am.
I know they're your closest friend. I respect that and I wasn't trying to start shit with you. I know you said you were feeling down and I thought it might help you to see your friend in that light so you could investigate it further together, addressing the cause rather than the symptom. I think you've totally misunderstood my point and intention from the start, and maybe you're feeling especially vulnerable right now so you're becoming hyper-defensive for your friend and maybe that's part of it, but I'm not your enemy here and I'm not trying to start shit with you.
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