Seriously, imagine being a class reductionist. I could never be one. Just the pervasiveness of racism, bigotry, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, et al that I have personally experiened tells me that there are other dynamics that intersect with class that are very, very relevant. But sure, tell me all about how the white guy who quotes black crime stats and seeks out suburbs that are virtually all white to live in would totally be a good comrade if you could just have 15 minutes to explain class consciousness to him. Or the evangelical nut who somehow in 2021 considers transgenderism a sin and a mental illness akshully only sees is that way because of class. Go ahead.
Seriously if you see any class reductionism here just tag me, I love banning class reductionists. It's fun for me.
If you're a revolutionary and you don't believe killing every injustice of the old world than you aren't a revolutionary, you're just grifting and it's quite obvious.
I'm not any kind of marginalized minority, so maybe I'm off base and feel free to shoot me down - but this conversation is always super confusing for me. The class reductionism charge is always incredibly vague so I have no idea what class reductionism looks like. Beyond that, I've NEVER heard this charge in IRL organizing circles - except once when someone who dislikes Ibrahim X Kendi was called class reductionist by a liberal (lol). If anything, Kendi-type race reductionism (i.e radical racial politics with 0 class analysis) is a MUCH bigger problem across the board. As in like, every single person I know IRL who is not in some kind of org is exactly this type of 'support black businesses' liberal race reductionist.
Hope I'm not coming off as instigating because I'm genuinely curious - do you have an IRL example where someone you would consider class reductionist was being a dick?
I didn't say "class reductionism is worse" I said that I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Honestly I still don't.
To be clear, I totally agree that doing active work to root out white supremacy is vital. I'm constantly finding myself relearning unconscious internalized racism - I'm absolutely not trying to pull a "I'm a communist so I'm not a racist" thing, because bigotry is more complicated and ingrained, especially cis white people, and yes communists too. That's why I never speak over BIPOC comrades (it's also in our bylaws).
But honestly I've literally never heard them complain about class reductionism, exactly the opposite - my BIPOC comrades and I are united against liberal anti-racism because it's A. race reductionist non-materialist nonsense and B. EXTREMELY prevalent in Americans who claim to do anti-racist work, e.g this new wave of corporate anti-racism training consultants.
Stupidpol isn't really even "class reductionist," they're basically just right wing, so their view can be discarded. But you said "it's not just stupidpol," so I was just asking for clarification on what you meant.
EDIT: Also lmk if you have any book recs on the subject :read-theory:
You know how MLK said his people will never be free till there is economic justice? Crazy he was a class reductionist.
Ah yes, MLK, known best for *checks notes* ignoring racial oppression to focus only on class.
MLK did have a strong program for economic justice he thought was instrumental to alleviating the other social ills. He found that a strong material analysis was the best cure for rascism, and I am inclined to agree with him. It's like if the workers of the world unite things will get better or something.
Because white Boys want healthcare but everything else remains the same.
I think I can understand the thought process. They believe that elevating the material conditions is first and foremost, and that as we do that bigotry will naturally be reduced. Obviously I don’t agree, but I understand it. Their argument is that they’d rather have a society where everyone has the material conditions to survive but racism still exists, rather than people dying in the street and starving but there is no racism.
baby brain thought process, like obviously you can tackle 2 things at once
they’d rather have a society where everyone has the material conditions to survive but racism still exists
Yep, it's people usually in a position of privilege w/r/t to race, gender, etc having a really high tolerance for it, because ultimately it's something they benefit from or at least not something that impacts them.
Not at all, it becomes class reductionism if you think it will fix most/all situations for racism, bigotry etc, or if you think direct approaches to combating racism etc "don't matter" in the short term
The problem is is anti-wokeness (and class reductionism, relatedly) is it ranges between "it's stupid to say you can't write fiction outside of your identity" and "why can't I spam racial slurs?"...
It also really, really ignores actual positions Americans (for example) hold. I got banned from stupidpol for pointing out that they're literally less progressive than the average American on LGBT+ issues, thus the appeal to the common man (as if proletariats don't have gay or trans family members) doesn't make sense. Even in organizing, someone like a TERF is far more likely to be a pain in the ass, because they ideologically despise men & trans women & have internet-induced psychosis.
But again, it also ranges between reaching out to white people who just misspeak sometimes and are trying to update their language, VS Jan 6th rioters.
the appeal to the common man
I wonder why soulless reddit fascists would make this argument
In part, I think it's born out of a frustration with libs (and cons) talking about anything but class (the so called "middle class" excepted).
only sees is that way because of class
historical materialism lets us understand why these classes like white settlers or religious PMC freaks exist in the first place
Disclaimer: I'm a white cishet-passing guy. Please educate me if I get this wrong or if I'm blind to stuff.
Class reductionism is one of those things that points at real problems but proposes the wrong solutions.
Class is important, both because most people are working class and feel the consequences of class society and because the working class holds real power over society in a way that other oppressed groups don't.
For a long time class based politics has been pushed to the back of public consciousness and a renaissance of class consciousness is long overdue.
Instead the progressive end of mainstream politics has been taken over by class-blind liberal identity politics that fails to address material conditions. Getting people who are struggling to get by to see more girlboss CEO's as an important issue is a hard sell. We all know that these girlboss CEO's are not going to lift a finger for working people.
Class reductionists claim they want to unite the working class by putting aside all the so-called identity issues that allegedly divides us. But they get it wrong. It is not the fight against oppression of minorities that divides us, it is the oppression itself that does. When class reductionists downplays oppression they are contributing to it and thereby making leftist spaces less safe and inviting to women, BIPOCs or LGBT people.
Class is important and the way to build a strong proletarian movement is through solidarity where we recognise and help eachother. Leftism just for white guys has no future.
it's because a lot of the left essentially uses theory as a substitute for class consciousness. people have a general understanding of historical class conflict, but because of wealth, race, education, and other segregating effects were able to opt out of any mutual struggle alongside the modern subjects of that theory.
it's not that you would necessarily need to be an amazon worker in a warehouse to understand what is going on there, but alternative would be either commissioning your own detailed studies or doing firsthand research which generally doesn't happen. there's just a lot of social commentary built on other social commentary which is treated as theory and in turn is treated as class consciousness.
The only class i support reducing is the bourgeoisie :gui-better:
Honestly most of the debate seems comes from people arguing similar things just with different definitions of class reductionism.
