Can I hate Elon Musk and also believe we are failing young men and boys today due to the sins of their fathers?
I think it's great that women have gained so much ground, but I don't think leaving anyone behind is good for society in the long run.
And there are a fuck load of young men being left behind right now, and whether or not it's true, a lot of them hear the world telling them it's their own fault for not succeeding. That doesn't lead anywhere good.
Am I wrong? I see this all the time, women leave for the city, get an education but the men just stagnate, stew, and make bad decisions because their cultural world view is outdated. We need a Uighur re-education camp program for rural America badly.
I do think that commenter absorbed some bad framing they should re-examine, but they are raising a real issue. I think you're assuming some bad faith that isn't there.
All this hand wringing on the right about "society failing young men" or whatever is partially true, not because MEN are suffering in particular, but because everyone is suffering, and men experience that suffering through a masculine framing and masculine expectations.
None of this is that novel, we all know men are told to get a tough manly job, buy a suburban house, are told to relate to their family primarily as a provider and protector, and on and on. None of that really makes any sense anymore, but it's mostly caused by changing economic forces instead of the changing social attitudes that happened at the same time. We all know this, but we're not good at explaining it. (To be fair, a lot of people don't want to hear it.)
If our only response is basically "fuck all that, things sucked back then" we're not addressing the real problem. People kinda know that, people at the time certainly knew that, but at least they were miserable in houses they actually owned.
I know I'm not coming up with anything novel here, but I think it's better to reflect on our approach and refine our thoughts on the issue rather than pounce on people who raise the topic.
I think there's a difference between "the fascists have a point here, actually" and "the fascists are discussing people's actual concerns and experiences." Taking real concerns and proposing cruel non-solutions is kind of their whole deal obviously
And there are a fuck load of young men being left behind right now, and whether or not it's true, a lot of them hear the world telling them it's their own fault for not succeeding. That doesn't lead anywhere good.
Where would 's desired messaging for those boys lead them? Somewhere better?
there's another option, but c/menby or whatever it's called is pretty 🦗 and when people do give advice it's full of bootstraps garbage, even here among comrades. It's hard to have anything original to say about "mens' issues": life under capitalism sucks shit, falling through the cracks sucks shit, i've never felt like explicitly queer spaces are "for" masc-presenting agender folks, and we don't have solidarity groups because of socialization and invisibility.
"left behind" is a little vague but there's half-issues that affect women less because of historical sexism like workplace safety and stopped clock situations like education outcomes. Nobody was invested in keeping me in college or is interested in helping me go back and there is stone nothing for people at the intersection of whatever the fuck happened to me.
Certainly mens' liberation discourse is decades behind the rest of feminism, but that one at least is on men and people society treats as men to sort out. we have a bit of a free start with the "patriarchy hurts men too" writings if more of us would engage with it on that basis.
you may be interested in the youtuber FD Signifier.
this post is also perhaps not the best time and place for those concerns but it's better than doing it when women are trying to have a conversation about feminism.
And there are a fuck load of young men being left behind right now, and whether or not it's true, a lot of them hear the world telling them it's their own fault for not succeeding. That doesn't lead anywhere good.
You're right, but victim blaming is something straight out of Cap 101's Bible. Pro-cap prop has been cooing at us Mayo Men that all those complaints we've been hearing from PoC is just that, sour grapes. That our accomplishments and place in the social strata are our own doing. That privelege didn't get very far man, so it's a hard sell for struggling folks to hear how good they have it.
We have been somewhat comfortable in our place at the top of the bottom. Now that the snake's bite has reached us we are finally feeling a bit of what our brown brothers have been talking about. I've spoken to a few of my cracker buddies very bitter at being called 'priveleged' when they are struggling. Privelege means something different to them, they don't get that it just means not having institutional racism directed towards them. They don't understand the concept.
I think it's not that weird that they are feeling left behind, they're just new to this particular feature of capitalism, becoming the bugaboo the bougies use to turn us all against each other and redirecting blame away from their needing to be eaten, right away
I have never heard a solution for the problem of "male loneliness" that doesn't come back to expecting women to fall on a sword to correct it. That's what it ends up boiling back down to every fucking time. I'm trying to not be hostile but tbh I have no patience for this framing of this issue.
It's not a matter of male loneliness, it's a matter of loneliness in general due to capitalism. Men's loneliness specifically just gets focused on and handwrung about, by people from to to the point that everyone else's loneliness isn't acknowledged and it's seen as a uniquely male issue. And there's a reason for that which goes back to my first paragraph.
We are not failing these men, they just don't understand that the let down they experience are the consequences of capitalism and NOT the fact that they are losing their privileges over women and minorities. Because of their lack of class consciousness they are unable to locate the true source of their hardship and so attribute it to the ongoing identity politics push from the liberal "left".
this perspective is rooted in not understanding simple things. some people may take feminism to mean "men are bad", but that's an extremely reductive and incorrect catch phrase. as you note, the patriarchy does harm men in some ways, but if you can't get past this vibes based analysis you aren't going to get anywhere with it. especially when you consider the various threats to basic bodily autonomy that women face today, your conclusions are on pretty shaky ground.
I'm sorry but don't expect me to feel empathy for people who regularly call for the genocide of all non-whites "as a joke". I grew up with these people, all they need to do is touch grass and stop using :reddit:, there is no great barrier other than poor socialization from reactionary online communities. I have tried to help these people in the past, they do not want help and they would rather slowly die of radiation poisoning in a hole in the ground than stop being insufferable edgelord reactionaries.
I don't have anything to back this take up with exactly, besides working in a teaching environment, but I think most of the concerns liberals pose about "reeducation" are kinda not possible. In an educational environment you're just basically telling people things. You can't change someone so easily as that.
You can show them that the basis of their ideas is false, you can teach them new things, but when it comes to unhinged anti wokeness or whatever those kind of brain worms are a network effect and you couldn't individualize a reeducation camp to implant them.
When it comes to the shitty things Americans like myself learned in school like how (insert group of people) were savages until we taught them how to think good or whatever, that's just hooking into existing brain worms.
So my takeaway is we should stop fearing the reeducation because it can't hurt it can only help.
This is always a tricky one. I think there's a line between understanding/acknowledging white male privilege and understanding that the majority of white men in the US also have shitty lives. I think sometimes the left goes a bit over the top with attitudes towards privilege, but that's also because awareness among the privileged is often low.
It's an easy way to push young white men away from a cause. Nobody wants to continually hear that they have it easy when they're experiencing class struggle like the rest of us. I know people who are wary of white men because of their past experiences, which is valid, but it is a form of prejudice. I know we like to believe that reverse racism isn't a thing, but it is. It just isn't as important or impactful as racism towards oppressed communities. It still feels shitty to be held to a different standard to no fault of your own.
We cannot and should not abandon rhetoric on privilege, but it's worth approaching it from a point of solidarity. It's clear the left is losing a lot of people that should be allies because they feel alienated by all of this.
Can I hate Elon Musk and also believe we are failing young men and boys today due to the sins of their fathers?
I think it's great that women have gained so much ground, but I don't think leaving anyone behind is good for society in the long run.
And there are a fuck load of young men being left behind right now, and whether or not it's true, a lot of them hear the world telling them it's their own fault for not succeeding. That doesn't lead anywhere good.
Am I wrong? I see this all the time, women leave for the city, get an education but the men just stagnate, stew, and make bad decisions because their cultural world view is outdated. We need a Uighur re-education camp program for rural America badly.
deleted by creator
I do think that commenter absorbed some bad framing they should re-examine, but they are raising a real issue. I think you're assuming some bad faith that isn't there.
All this hand wringing on the right about "society failing young men" or whatever is partially true, not because MEN are suffering in particular, but because everyone is suffering, and men experience that suffering through a masculine framing and masculine expectations.
None of this is that novel, we all know men are told to get a tough manly job, buy a suburban house, are told to relate to their family primarily as a provider and protector, and on and on. None of that really makes any sense anymore, but it's mostly caused by changing economic forces instead of the changing social attitudes that happened at the same time. We all know this, but we're not good at explaining it. (To be fair, a lot of people don't want to hear it.)
If our only response is basically "fuck all that, things sucked back then" we're not addressing the real problem. People kinda know that, people at the time certainly knew that, but at least they were miserable in houses they actually owned.
I know I'm not coming up with anything novel here, but I think it's better to reflect on our approach and refine our thoughts on the issue rather than pounce on people who raise the topic.
deleted by creator
I meant accusing D3FNC, I don't give a shit either way about some bluecheck lol
deleted by creator
I think there's a difference between "the fascists have a point here, actually" and "the fascists are discussing people's actual concerns and experiences." Taking real concerns and proposing cruel non-solutions is kind of their whole deal obviously
deleted by creator
I believe they proposed "a Uighur re-education camp program for rural America" which tbh is probably on the right track.
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there's another option, but c/menby or whatever it's called is pretty 🦗 and when people do give advice it's full of bootstraps garbage, even here among comrades. It's hard to have anything original to say about "mens' issues": life under capitalism sucks shit, falling through the cracks sucks shit, i've never felt like explicitly queer spaces are "for" masc-presenting agender folks, and we don't have solidarity groups because of socialization and invisibility.
deleted by creator
"left behind" is a little vague but there's half-issues that affect women less because of historical sexism like workplace safety and stopped clock situations like education outcomes. Nobody was invested in keeping me in college or is interested in helping me go back and there is stone nothing for people at the intersection of whatever the fuck happened to me.
Certainly mens' liberation discourse is decades behind the rest of feminism, but that one at least is on men and people society treats as men to sort out. we have a bit of a free start with the "patriarchy hurts men too" writings if more of us would engage with it on that basis.
deleted by creator
I disagree.
you may be interested in the youtuber FD Signifier.
this post is also perhaps not the best time and place for those concerns but it's better than doing it when women are trying to have a conversation about feminism.
Noah Samson is another good one
You're right, but victim blaming is something straight out of Cap 101's Bible. Pro-cap prop has been cooing at us Mayo Men that all those complaints we've been hearing from PoC is just that, sour grapes. That our accomplishments and place in the social strata are our own doing. That privelege didn't get very far man, so it's a hard sell for struggling folks to hear how good they have it.
We have been somewhat comfortable in our place at the top of the bottom. Now that the snake's bite has reached us we are finally feeling a bit of what our brown brothers have been talking about. I've spoken to a few of my cracker buddies very bitter at being called 'priveleged' when they are struggling. Privelege means something different to them, they don't get that it just means not having institutional racism directed towards them. They don't understand the concept.
I think it's not that weird that they are feeling left behind, they're just new to this particular feature of capitalism, becoming the bugaboo the bougies use to turn us all against each other and redirecting blame away from their needing to be eaten, right away
I have never heard a solution for the problem of "male loneliness" that doesn't come back to expecting women to fall on a sword to correct it. That's what it ends up boiling back down to every fucking time. I'm trying to not be hostile but tbh I have no patience for this framing of this issue.
It's not a matter of male loneliness, it's a matter of loneliness in general due to capitalism. Men's loneliness specifically just gets focused on and handwrung about, by people from
to 
to the point that everyone else's loneliness isn't acknowledged and it's seen as a uniquely male issue. And there's a reason for that which goes back to my first paragraph.
We are not failing these men, they just don't understand that the let down they experience are the consequences of capitalism and NOT the fact that they are losing their privileges over women and minorities. Because of their lack of class consciousness they are unable to locate the true source of their hardship and so attribute it to the ongoing identity politics push from the liberal "left".
this perspective is rooted in not understanding simple things. some people may take feminism to mean "men are bad", but that's an extremely reductive and incorrect catch phrase. as you note, the patriarchy does harm men in some ways, but if you can't get past this vibes based analysis you aren't going to get anywhere with it. especially when you consider the various threats to basic bodily autonomy that women face today, your conclusions are on pretty shaky ground.
I'm sorry but don't expect me to feel empathy for people who regularly call for the genocide of all non-whites "as a joke". I grew up with these people, all they need to do is touch grass and stop using :reddit:, there is no great barrier other than poor socialization from reactionary online communities. I have tried to help these people in the past, they do not want help and they would rather slowly die of radiation poisoning in a hole in the ground than stop being insufferable edgelord reactionaries.
I don't have anything to back this take up with exactly, besides working in a teaching environment, but I think most of the concerns liberals pose about "reeducation" are kinda not possible. In an educational environment you're just basically telling people things. You can't change someone so easily as that.
You can show them that the basis of their ideas is false, you can teach them new things, but when it comes to unhinged anti wokeness or whatever those kind of brain worms are a network effect and you couldn't individualize a reeducation camp to implant them.
When it comes to the shitty things Americans like myself learned in school like how (insert group of people) were savages until we taught them how to think good or whatever, that's just hooking into existing brain worms.
So my takeaway is we should stop fearing the reeducation because it can't hurt it can only help.
This is always a tricky one. I think there's a line between understanding/acknowledging white male privilege and understanding that the majority of white men in the US also have shitty lives. I think sometimes the left goes a bit over the top with attitudes towards privilege, but that's also because awareness among the privileged is often low.
It's an easy way to push young white men away from a cause. Nobody wants to continually hear that they have it easy when they're experiencing class struggle like the rest of us. I know people who are wary of white men because of their past experiences, which is valid, but it is a form of prejudice. I know we like to believe that reverse racism isn't a thing, but it is. It just isn't as important or impactful as racism towards oppressed communities. It still feels shitty to be held to a different standard to no fault of your own.
We cannot and should not abandon rhetoric on privilege, but it's worth approaching it from a point of solidarity. It's clear the left is losing a lot of people that should be allies because they feel alienated by all of this.