While I said I don't want it to be a struggle session, cool headed good faith discussion is also appreciated. This just came up with some comrades of mine and I couldn't find the last post about it so if anyone has the link that would be great too.
Pretty sure we've already done this, and the outcome was that we're still using both those words, which I'm personally fine with tbh. You have to draw a line somewhere.
That said, if you're not comfortable with using them "clown/clownish" is a good substitute as no one was ever born a clown.
no one was ever born a clown
counterpoint: jordan peterson was born a clown
Yes we did and this is not about drawing a line, this is about comrades that may want to just voluntarily curb the usage of those terms and also for coming up with more creative insults and such.
Oh yeah, you'll get no argument from me there. Like I said I'm fond of clown
Listen here you little shit, I am a decorated veteran of the posting wars, I have thousands of confirmed dunks. I will ban you from 1000 miles away and not lose sleep over it.
That said, if you're not comfortable with using them "clown/clownish" is a good substitute as no one was ever born a clown.
"Clown" always throws up a red flag because I've seen so many fascists using it. I don't know why but I assume it came from 4chan using it euphemistically as a slur and other fascists not in the loop picking up the habit of using it as a generic word for something bad.
"Stupid" is not ableist in etymology. "Stupid" was never a medical terminology like ableist terms, the r-slur as example was a medical terminology. "Stupid" comes from latin, "stupidus", which means to be struck senseless with astonishment. "Stupid" is the base word of "stupefied", which means a temporary state of mental numbness from shock.
To say that "stupid" is ableist is overcorrective. "Stupid" does not describe a disability. Anyone can be "stupid". "Stupid" describes a person who is in a state of confusion from being surprised.
Also I get everybody being like "just call them a shit head instead" but their willful ignorance and insistence on not making basic connections is a specific and pretty widespread trait.
Lots of people are shitheads, it's a very specific kind of shithead who thinks "it was cold last week so global warming doesn't exist" is a great point and pointing out that argument is fucking stupid is a lot more effective then calling the person who made it a shit gibbon twat waffle like some kind of mid 2010s memelord.
I think "stupid" and "dumb" fall into a category where they're ableist in etymology but in use they are just a common way to say bad or without sense. A lot of derogatory words have that effect, but they create a problem by associating a group of people with being bad (I'm thinking of the homophobic use of the term "gay" in particular). In this case, I think that's rarely the case, I think they've basically shed their associations.
I do sometimes try to avoid them. I'll try to remember what I say instead:
- [X] doesn't make sense
- Silly
- [X] is a bad idea
- I'm not a fan of [X]
- Absurd
- Ridiculous
- [A more specific criticism]
- [X] sucks
- Liberal
I think "stupid" and "dumb" fall into a category where they're ableist in etymology but in use they are just a common way to say bad or without sense.
Exactly. It does kind of bother me the way those words are treated here, because nobody actually thinks you're being ableist when you say "x behavior is stupid" but if one of the mods who reads it happens to be a proponent of x behavior you can bet your ass your comment's getting removed for ableism
I teach 2cd grade so take this w some salt, but Silly Billy has been pretty damning and effective.
I know a teacher that does exactly that and it has a staggering effect on students that are trying very hard to be cool and mature and edgy.
I like it because it shows to them I'm not actually mad or upset but they just need to settle down a little bit.
Yeah. That's a very important rule I tell any new teacher: never, ever look mad. The consequences can linger for years if you do.
OMG yeah. I still feel awful for when a student cried after I told him he needed to stop slapping someone's butt too forcefully. Really learning a lot about how to moderate my affect which has been really helpful in the rest of my life.
Whatever you do don't fall into the trap of inventing your own ones in the fly like "fuckscribble", makes you seem like a certified dandycorn.
Many such examples in this thread.
I get being cautious about not being ableist but if you call somebody a fuckwit unironically everybody within ear shot is going to laugh at you and dismiss what you're saying.
Do you live on reddit because if you said that to anybody around here they'd just call you the f slur.
[Pulls up a stump] Let me tell you folks about a person called Melissa McEwan.
Why use some ableist or made-up word when you can just call them a R*dditor?
Whatever you do don't fall into the trap of inventing your own ones in the fly like "fuckscribble", makes you seem like a certified dandycorn.
Show
Why go to all the trouble of locating and opening the Ark of the Covenant when you can just open up twitter dot com.
Regardless of those two terms being harmful, it’s good to use more incisive terms that point toward the problems with their thinking or attitudes.
Incurious, small-minded, duped, bereft of imagination, ill-informed, whatever. If it’s framed as a specific thing that someone is being rather than something they are intrinsically, maybe there’s a chance that someone listening identifies that in themselves and sees a chance to get better.
Or maybe this is just an excuse to have more fun with words, iunno
Or maybe this is just an excuse to have more fun with words, iunno
It was definitely both a lighthearted post, but also serious and with the hope for either insightful comments or witty alternatives.
Sorry, I should’ve said “maybe this is just my excuse”! I meant to poke fun at my own motivations, not yours (or anyone else’s)
I've pretty much eliminated those terms from my vocabulary, but it should be acknowledged that it isn't easy.
Yep that's why I made the post on behalf of myself and some friends trying to do just that.
there's "lib" of course, or dipshit or rube.
i try to remind myself that generally someone's ideology derives from their material interests, not some cognitive impairment, so calling someone stupid for thinking lib thoughts isn't very meaningful or useful. we're all subject to motivated reasoning, and motivated libs can be quite clever in their own way when devising post hoc rationalizations for supporting genocide or whatever else. our political opponents are not stupid, even when they allow their ideological convictions to lead them to incorrect conclusions. we can't really afford complacency and the patience to wait for capitalists to simply make enough mistakes that we win by default, because that won't happen. those terms aren't just ableist, they're self-defeating.
This I think is the best comment on this topic anyone has ever written, this drives at the heart of the issue that we are addressing. A fascist isn't fascist because they are "stupid", nor is someone "stupid" because they are a fascist or more prone to be such, and using those terms removes the agency of people to do good or bad regardless of any physiological characteristic.
Hadn’t really thought about it, but words other than “stupid” or “dumb” make you sound more self-aware
Archaic, insipid, dull, tired, weak, backwards, incoherent are all much better
ageist, good, abelist, abelist, abelist, meh, abelist.
we need some solid language. how about loathsome dungeater (crap this could be kinkshaming)? Maybe insults aren't viable?
The only "pure" insults are gonna be ones based off of your target's actions or beliefs, or insults that are just kinda calling someone a curse word without any specific meaning (ie "fuckass"). Anything that's based off of a trait that that person didn't actively choose to have is going to have an implication.
Anything that’s based off of a trait that that person didn’t actively choose to have is going to have an implication.
For many insult throwers, the implication is the point.
Maybe insults aren't viable?
i think slurs need to be fresh (or maintained) to hold any weight. I guess polack was a slur? but i've never heard anyone besides gary coleman use the term and there's no anti-polish racism in my culture anymore so nobody would even know to scold you for it.
might be different but i don't think it's reasonable to consider dialects that aren't local. every sentence we say is probably something horrible in cockney rhyming slang.
If you're trying to express that someone has bad ideas, mean-spirited, incoherent, backwards, small-minded, spineless and disingenuous all convey different aspects of "stupid"
Okay but this post is not about that, the presupposition I said was that it is unproductive and asking for better words, @context@hexbear.net already explained it best.
Yeah, that's what I was doing, drawing out the aspects of what "stupid" means so you can use them without bundling in the ableism
Like, @context 's comment says to focus on material conditions. "Backwards" holds implicit that a person holds those ideas because of material conditions, usually underdevelopment. "Incoherent" focuses on the deficiencies of the statement, not the personality of the person saying them.
I think you misunderstood my comment you silly Billy.
I try to use "ridiculous" whenever I can. Or maybe just lay out what is irrational or illogical and let people conclude their own judgement on the thing
Also since I am really fruity I have started post-ironically calling straight people and their ideas 'gay as hell' which has thrown a lot of people for a loop in a way that has let me deescalate or reescalate on my own terrain.
As someone that grew up around a bunch of queer outcasts in skater and punk crowds that always sort of did this both ironically and unironically to call something cool this tracks.
Oh, I mean I do it in a negative sense. Mainly, I homophobically counter-harass straight men who are creeping on my lady friends.
See this is the kind of discussion I was hoping for, I wanted to crowd source some specific insults that are silly but serious and have a deliberate connotation to them that is baggage free and better articulates the aspect of the recipient being criticized.
Crafting punchy insults is hard.
I vaguely remember there was a popular thing on reddit where people wanted to find an insult that went over their target's head. Top of the bell curve. I feel like you generally want your target to know your contempt.
Ass, I feel like describes someone being belligerently stubbornly ignorant, but it's evolved to focus primarily on the belligerence so I feel like doesn't convey the meaning where we'd want favour the choice to be ignorant.
Rube describes a sort of naivety and innocence that is only "bad" because you're surrounded by predators and scam artists. That said, the default approach to nationalist narratives if you grew up in The West is to be a Rube naively trusting your national interests etc.
You also never want an insult that partly implies your target is living in your head rent free. I know you're an anarchist, but the first example I can think of is the response insults to tankie (e.g. dronie, et al). It's piss weak and belies a lack of confidence in both yourself and your position. That lack of confidence may be real, but we're workshopping here.
I think you don't want it to be too smart. If you have to explain your insult, you're playing a losing game. It should be punchy and short. (Aside: in a recent conversation I thought of a term "Suburban Nietzsche ", which I think would describe a sort of person that definitely exists, but implies I read too much. I might use it in an essay somewhere, but it's absolutely something that would work as a sneering insult)
I think some names work if there's enough cultural force behind them. Lots of little missteps can be made, but if it works it works
Eh. I kinda feel like rube is a bit of a slur towards country folk if you really want to analyze it. Obtuse, maybe?
I'd do my homework for sure.
My immediate association was someone being scammed on the streets in new York, I didn't think about the rural connection which definitely exists.
Mark, punter, know-nothing (am American politcal party from back in the day)
Can't go wrong with shit + anything. "YOu shoe-shitting shit ass!" What does it mean? I have no idea, but it gets the point across.
The real answer that only like 2 people figured out in this 150+ comment thread is to call them a Redditor. Seriously. If you call someone a Redditor, everybody understands everything. Being called a Redditor is so bad even calling someone a Redditor is an insult on Reddit.
