I’m a big proponent of critical support for China, but it could also be said that China is engaging in shenanigans in Xinjiang precisely because the BRI runs through it.
It's good to be skeptical of China -- there should be intense skepticism of any institution that powerful. But there's a difference between careful skepticism and swallowing U.S. propaganda whole. Not that you're doing that; the point is just to be on guard for it.
Yeah I think the audience for this is more the liberal/normie types, rather than the leftist "China struggle session" time types.
Even earnest attempts at development would lead to resistance as it would be paired with primitive accumulation.
You're right and based on what I've read, that is indeed a huge motivation for their development of the XUAR.
The USA would be mad to start a war with China. It would end life on earth
It for sure won't be a direct war, but another cold would also be devastating to much of the world (and the us will probably lose one anyway so maybe it's for the best)
We're long into another cold war. Good think Russia has the pee pee tapes. And again Russia is standing between US imperialism and the people
Interesting take. Though the Uyghur thing is still pretty bad, right?
Approximately 50% of what you hear is outright propaganda, as we know the CIA’s affiliates churn out. We also see CIA assets pushing narratives on Reddit. The next 25% is poorly researched speculation by an evangelical end-timer, and the final 25% is an accurate description of the PRC’s response to far right, religious terrorism and separatism.
First, let’s just establish using safe, American sources that a bunch of Uyghur people went to fight with ISIS in Syria, then returned. Let’s also establish that there have been consistent terrorist attacks with significant casualties and that the CIA and CIA front-groups have funded and stoked Islamic extremism across the world for geopolitical gain.
Now, we need to consider potential responses.
The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven.
The next option is the American option. Drone strike, black-site, or otherwise liquidate anyone who could be associated with Islamic extremism. Be liberal in doing so. Make children fear blue skies because of drones. When the orphaned young children grow up, do it all again. You can also throw a literal man-made famine in there if you want.
The final option is the Chinese option. Mass surveillance. Use AI to liberally target anyone who may be at risk of radicalisation for re-education. Teach them the lingua franca of China, Mandarin. Pump money into the region for development. When people finish their time in re-education, set them up with state jobs. Keep the surveillance up. Allow and even celebrate local religious customs, but make sure the leaders are on-side with the party.
Let’s take a moment to distinguish that last approach from that of Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany wanted to exterminate the undesirables. Initially it was internment in concentration camps with the outcome up in the air, with a vague hope of shipping them to Madagascar or palestine, but it later morphed into full extermination. All throughout, Nazi Germany was pushing strong rhetoric of antisemitism and stoking ethnic hatred in the public sphere.
There’s no evidence, including from leaked papers, that the goal of the deradicalisation programme is permanent internment or annihilation of Islam. In fact, the leaked papers have Xi explicitly saying Islam should not be annihilated from China:
Mr. Xi also told officials to not discriminate against Uighurs and to respect their right to worship. He warned against overreacting to natural friction between Uighurs and Han Chinese, the nation’s dominant ethnic group, and rejected proposals to try to eliminate Islam entirely in China.
“In light of separatist and terrorist forces under the banner of Islam, some people have argued that Islam should be restricted or even eradicated,” he said during the Beijing conference. He called that view “biased, even wrong.”
As for permanent internment, we know from leaks that the minimum duration of detention is one year — though accounts from ex-detainees suggest that some are released sooner.
Unlike Nazi Germany, there’s no stoking of inter-ethnic hatred or elimination of a specific culture; the CPC actively censors footage from terrorist attacks in China to avoid such an outcome. Xi doesn’t go on TV calling any ethnicity rapists or murderers. Uighur culture is actively celebrated in the media and via tourism. Xinjiang has 24,400 mosques, one per 530 Muslims. That’s three mosques per capita more than their western peers.
Could China’s approach be done better? Almost certainly. Is it the most humane response to extremism we’ve seen so far? That’s for you to decide.
(Reposted from here )
This seems like a reasonable write-up, but I'm highly skeptical of any kind of "re-education" ever accomplishing what it intends to. You could replace "vague hope of shipping them to Madagascar" with "vague hope that they'll assimilate into Han culture (or at least abandon extremism)". When it doesn't work, what then? When this indigenous people starts to feel more and more (essentially colonial) pressure from the economic development of Belt & Road, what would you expect to happen then? The conditions leading to radicalization, even outside of IS or CIA involvement, are only going to get more intense, not less so. Telling someone their culture is important and valued by the majority as it continues to be pushed further to the fringes by a majority ethnic group gentrifying (on a massive scale) their home will lead to backlash, and the only type of backlash that will find support from the outside world will be right-wing extremism.
One of the biggest issues is that over the past 30 or so years, the Uighur populace has had fewer economic opportunities than the Han/Hui populace. The economic liberalisation of the 1980s gave greater opportunities to people connected with the central and coastal areas, and that meant people with family there already, and people who could communicate in mandarin. So Uighurs were set on a worse path from a while back. This was well before the BRI rolled out.
That said, development isn’t the same as gentrification. The important thing is that as development occurs in the region, the Uighur populace gets to participate, and isn’t left behind or forced out. One way of preparing for that is to teach the lingua Franca, mandarin, and have state support for placement in industrial jobs.
It’s also important to note that the extremism didn’t come out of nowhere. The economic liberalisation tilled the soil, but Saudi Arabia’s worldwide export of Wahhabism laid the seeds.
Right now, the wider world is actively trying to impoverish the Uighur populace by targeting production chains that have Uighur labour. The claim is ‘forced labour’, the same one that’s levied against Cuba sending doctors to other countries.
The US has its way to deal with Uighur extremists/terrorists in the region.
I don't think that is really preferable.
The conditions leading to radicalization, even outside of IS or CIA involvement, are only going to get more intense, not less so. Telling someone their culture is important and valued by the majority as it continues to be pushed further to the fringes
In theory, re-education programs can improve the material conditions of people (in the same way investing in education everywhere else does), which should help keep them from being pushed to the fringes of society.
But also, yes, some people do need political re-education. Tens of millions of people in this country just flat-out don't give a shit about the value of human life outside of the lives of their family and friends. That mindset is fundamentally incompatible with any society worth having. Any acceptable solution to that gigantic problem is going to involve re-educating people.
I'm not disagreeing, I just don't think that any heretofore discovered method of re-education actually works.
The third option that I think exists that OP did not discuss is that when investing in a community, you make sure the people who were already there are the ones who benefit. This is the same thing that gets brought up in discussions of marijuana legalization and gentrification in the US.
How many of these new factories in Xinjiang are collectively owned by people from Xinjiang? How many factory forepersons are Uyghurs? Are the new housing housing units being constructed being given to the existing population?
I just don’t think that any heretofore discovered method of re-education actually works.
I can think of at least three existing tools that are pretty effective at influencing mass attitudes:
- Mass media, particularly film and TV. For example, consider all the copaganda on existing police shows and imagine if the message was inverted. Instead of a cop planting evidence to nail a guy they know is guilty, they find one piece of potentially exonerating evidence and the message is about how important it is to disclose that to the prosecutor and defense counsel. Instead of a cop roughing up a suspect and getting useful information, a cop roughs up a suspect, gets made-up info that blows up in their face, and they get reprimanded or fired for it. Instead having an entire series about how horrible sex criminals are lurking around every corner, you have a series about some juvenile diversionary program that keeps kids from getting into deeper trouble.
- Emotionally jarring messaging. The two examples that come to mind are Holocaust museums and the type of video they show you before you go white water rafting (where they show all the bodies they drag out of the river each year). It's possible to design messaging that really hits hard -- imagine if we had U.S. war crimes museums, or Gilded Age worker abuse museums.
- Social/academic/employment consequences. People used to say the n-word all the time. You know how the n-word (largely) disappeared from mainstream society? There started to be serious consequences for saying it. If some talking head on TV said the n-word on a broadcast they'd be fired. What if they could get fired for calling on police to beat up protesters, or denying climate change, or defending U.S. invasions of other countries? It wouldn't, by itself, solve everything (just as driving the n-word from mainstream society hasn't solved racism). But it would create a a cultural current that's at least heading in the right direction, much like how we went from segregation being a legitimate political issue to something that even racists have to agree is wrong if they want to get any mainstream purchase.
But say you're right, and we're not sure any method of re-education will work. The alternative -- letting people who don't give a damn about human lives have real political power -- is more dangerous than at least trying to re-educate those people.
How many of these new factories in Xinjiang are collectively owned by people from Xinjiang? How many factory forepersons are Uyghurs? Are the new housing housing units being constructed being given to the existing population?
This is a fair question, and that's an ideal to strive for, but you can still do good things (e.g.. job guarantees, free education) even if they aren't collectively owned by the people involved. The Civilian Conservation Corps was a step in the right direction even if the workers didn't own their immediate means of production.
I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect the Uyghurs to subsume their identity while they're essentially being colonized by Han Chinese just because you taught them Mandarin and gave them jobs in a factory.
If they're left out of the massive creation of wealth that is occurring (which I fully expect they will be since, you know, they don't own the means of production) it's not going to go smoothly.
I very purposefully said "subsume" and not "eliminate" because what's expected is that they'd view themselves as Chinese first and as Uyghurs second, right? With "Uyghur" in the future carrying an implication of "Chinese".
Your defense of belt and road reads like a defense of southeast asian sweatshops. Just because China is doing it doesn't mean it's good. Cheering on the exploitation of people by capital because the global poverty stats will go down sounds like a straight up neoliberal talking point.
It's fully within China's power to make these new factories that are being built (Uyghur) worker-owned cooperatives.
From a Marxist point of view, the working conditions barely enter into why such factories are bad in Bangladesh and why they're still bad in China. Labor is being exploited in both.
A pattern repeated elsewhere will repeat again: A new territory is opened for the expansion of capital. It is colonized and the indigenous people will not see the same benefits as their colonizers.
I'd hardly call worker-owned co-ops a strictly anarchist organizing method just because they're horizontal.
But as you said, co-ops are having the workers exploit themselves. This is why people say co-ops aren't socialism when they're inside a capitalist society. The difference being that they receive a greater proportion of the actual value of their labor vs. simple wages.
What do you mean by "hard to implement at scale"? The capitalists are having the factories built. A state as strong as China's could surely expropriate these factories and give them to the workers.
BRI is mostly transportation infrastructure and coordinated at a very high level. However, this infrastructure investment has signaled to capitalists that Xinjiang is "open for business" and has spurred a lot of recent development (factory construction, housing construction).
I don't care so much about the road and train building so much as I care about the tagalong development alongside it, especially with respect to how the wealth from it is not going to the people who are from Xinjiang.
Just because China is doing it doesn’t mean it’s good.
No I think you don’t understand. Communism is when China does things. If you don’t approve of the ethnic cleansing, you aren’t a communist.
This looks like a well thought out response, so I will take my time to read it and think about it. Thank you.
Here's a great Twitter thread unpacking the propaganda about China, too.
This is a great post, hadn't seen it.
It could also be said that Islamic radicalization and it's export has been used as a very effective tool of empire and destabilization by the Anglosphere and it's close allies, over the decades. Entirely unsurprising that China would be acting.
Can't recommend enough the War Nerd episode with Prof. Isa Blumi on this. edit: his book on this is Destroying Yemen: What Chaos in Arabia Tells Us about the World
Interesting, wasn't aware.
There's a difference though between condoning and making it the basis for middle east policy, global energy policy, the petrodollar, and therefore the bedrock of hegemony.
Even more interesting. Any recs on reading, or good voices on this?
edit: I think history has proven, and China realises, that the quickest way to lose their ideological struggle is to advertise it as ideological and therefore unite the capitalist world against them. Better to build strength, make alliances of convenience wherever possible, and not be seen to interfere in other countries internal affairs.
thanks for the recommendation, that was a very worthwhile listen
Wasn't it? Very memorable interview for me.
That pod is the just the best.
Fuck me, this is good. And entirely predictable that it only got 13 upvotes on Reddit.
Those are deltas, the award system of CMV. The post, surprisingly, got a shitton of Reddit awards and upvotes back when it was made.
Oh ma lord can we please not spam /sino propaganda here?
The CCP is actually good and benevolent. -Source: CCP
If you read my post, you’ll see that the primary source was the exact same batch of leaked documents the western press was using as evidence of genocide.
In fact, the only points I used Chinese sources for were the number of mosques, and the presence of Uighur culture in state media.
I followed the link back to its original source. The tone reads like a creepy Dianetics manual, and it does that weird thing where the highlighted text distorts the linked source.
Yeah and who do you think wrote the original text?
If that’s dianetics, critical support to L Ron Hubbard.
Yeah and who do you think wrote the original text?
A prolific poster at /sino whose entire posting history is defending China.
If that’s dianetics, critical support to L Ron Hubbard.
If he ever joins your country's cabinet, he can be referred to as L Ron Cupboard.
whose entire posting history is defending China.
Well there's a lot of U.S. propaganda to counter. You can write entire books on it.
Thank you for seeing through the garbage. Dengaboos are the worst.
Could you put this in a cryptpad.fr or pastebin or just paste it here instead of a google doc?
this talk looks deep into the techniques they use and why the use it pd:and now john oliver release a video a video about it lol
uncritical support for china against the genocidal american empire
A fair few of China’s issues in Xinjiang can be traced to China and Pakistan’s assistance to the USA in making Afghanistan ungovernable for the soviets by promoting extremism and giving training to anyone who asked.
Funny how what goes around comes around.
Isn't major portion of the road going through Pakistan and Kashmir? Or is that a different road?
I think it's just not pictured in the map shown. Here is what was planned in Pakistan(not sure how far along they are).
