I mean, yea. But it had the potential to be so much greater. Imagine if the workers managed to get a revolution in this country, and destroyed capitalist influence in the daily lives of the people. Basically, that 4chan marx greentext. A country with no ads, widespread public transportation, far less individualism, strong safety nets, common ownership of means of production, no hustle culture and so on. This is what we could've had. Actual freedom. The good stuff. But instead, people prefer to work until they die, and this makes me fucking insane.
The problem is better stated as selfishness, not individualism. Being unique and individual is OK; thinking you're so fucking special that other people can eat shit so long as you get yours is not.
Saying the problem is selfishnes still presupposes individualism: the problem is that there are individuals who act selfishly and they should stop doing so. It centers the solution around the actions of individuals.
But as socialists, we know this is not the real answer. It is material conditions that force people into competition against one another and isolates us from each other. Socialism will by definition have to be far less individualistic, but you'll still have selfish people.
He's saying that. The point being made is collectivism is a requirement of building community and community is a requirement of the kind of culture that would lead to revolution. In order to have collectivism you must have less individualism. The two are polar opposites of cultural communal behaviour in contradiction to one another under capitalism. Individualism under capitalism creates selfish competition.
In order to have collectivism you must have less individualism.
I don't think that's correct. What is needed for collective action is less selfishness, which is not the same as individualism. I can be a distinct, individual person with my own tastes, opinions, and desires and still participate in collective activities. That's just plain-old individualism, and that's fine. There are countless examples of all different sorts of collective endeavors that have different individuals coming together for the common good.
Where you run into problems is when that individualism turns into an unwillingness to do anything that doesn't perfectly align with one's personal goals, or a willingness to take one's ball and go home rather than accept less than 100% of what one wants. That's selfishness, and that's poison to collective efforts. Individualism can lead to selfishness in some circumstances, but it doesn't necessarily lead to selfishness. I know tons of people who are distinct individuals but who are the least selfish people you'll meet.
You are creating a new definition of individualism that focuses solely on personal identity and nothing else. That is not what the cultural battle over individualist and collectivist cultures is really about.
Individualism is not "having a personal identity". Individualist cultural is about working for oneself and pursuing competition against other individuals in society in order to drive a competitive atmosphere that results in the strongest/best rising out on top. Collectivist culture on the other hand is about building community links where everyone works together to raise everyone simultaneously.
Making "individualism" into an entirely new american definition meaning "having a personal identity" is a bastardisation of what it has always meant and been used to refer to within the context of socialist vs capitalist struggle over the last couple centuries. It is a distortion of the meaning.
Individualism under capitalism results in competition and atomisation of the working class, it actively creates that selfishness. That is why the bourgeoisie push it so hard.
In order to unite the working class you MUST lower individualism and build collectivism.
You are creating a new definition of individualism that focuses solely on personal identity and nothing else.
It's not a new definition: "the actions or attitudes of a person who does things without being concerned about what other people will think."
What I'm describing is very much part of the common definition of "individualism," even though there's also the more politicized definition you're referring to. This is why reactionaries insist on painting leftists as anti-individualism -- it doesn't sound absurd because they created the political definition, but it implies that leftists hate individualism in the "personal identity" sense, too. This is why Cold War propaganda characterized the commies as straight-backed, assembly line automatons while the Free World got cool, individual consumer stuff like blue jeans and rock and roll.
That is not what the cultural battle over individualist and collectivist cultures is really about.
Well yeah, the whole point here is that it's better to frame this cultural battle as selfishness vs. collectivism instead of individualism vs. collectivism. We shouldn't be playing on a field created by chuds in the first place, and "selfishness" really is a more precise descriptor of what we're criticizing. No one on the left is opposed to individualism in as much as individualism means just being your own person. There's no reason we should accept anything that sounds like that as a starting premise. Even individual excellence isn't really something any left philosophy has a big problem with; the problem only arises when a person wants to keep far more than they could ever need for themselves, personally, at the expense of many others (i.e., selfishness).
In order to unite the working class you MUST lower individualism and build collectivism.
I mean, good luck selling this on Americans. It seems much easier to point out that individualism is fine so long as it doesn't become selfishness. People already like individualism and dislike selfishness. Why not use that instead of fighting it? Do you honestly think the left is going to have success trotting out "you need to give up your individualism" to Americans?
Ok. It's not a new definition. It's the lib definition. We're marxists though. We use the marxist definition.
I mean, good luck selling this on Americans. It seems much easier to point out that individualism is fine so long as it doesn’t become selfishness. People already like individualism and dislike selfishness. Why not use that instead of fighting it? Do you honestly think the left is going to have success trotting out “you need to give up your individualism” to Americans?
This is called opportunism. You want to compromise on what ACTUALLY needs to be done because it is long and difficult, sending the movement down the wrong path and setting it back.
What needs to be done can not be changed. Yes it is long and difficult. But it is what needs to be done. Failure to commit to the longterm effort and falling into opportunist mindset is how movements end up going off-track.
Yes. You must sell that to Americans. An outcome that must occur through mass class consciousness building and the spreading of theory. The people will come around to it when they understand what socialism is, what its goals are and what its fundamentals truly are instead of the distortions they have in mind currently. They will do this because they will realise that it is right, correct, and in their best interests. The problem is not a matter of convincing people emotionally, it's not an emotional-based topic, we are simply RIGHT, it is an educational problem, the people must be educated. That will occur over time as more and more and more people learn resulting in more that are out there also teaching.
Yes it is long and hard. Deal with it. Opportunism is not the way.
It’s the lib definition. We’re marxists though. We use the marxist definition.
This is just "everything I don't like is liberal." There is no Marxist definition of "individualism," and certainly not one that applies to 21st-century culture wars slap fights.
You are wrong here. Do a little bit of self-crit and accept that a literal dictionary definition is generally going to reflect how people commonly use the term. That's the whole reason right wingers frame the debate as "individualism vs. collectivism" -- because it makes it sound like leftists want to take away your personal identity, which sounds shitty because it would be shitty. There's no reason we should be playing into that.
You want to compromise on what ACTUALLY needs to be done
Show me anywhere in any sort of leftist writing that says "you have to give up your personal identity to achieve socialism." I must have missed that in Lenin.
it is an educational problem, the people must be educated
Plenty of education and plenty of collective work gets done without asking people to abandon their personal identity. The problem is people who are selfish, not people who are their own person.
It has always sucked
I mean, yea. But it had the potential to be so much greater. Imagine if the workers managed to get a revolution in this country, and destroyed capitalist influence in the daily lives of the people. Basically, that 4chan marx greentext. A country with no ads, widespread public transportation, far less individualism, strong safety nets, common ownership of means of production, no hustle culture and so on. This is what we could've had. Actual freedom. The good stuff. But instead, people prefer to work until they die, and this makes me fucking insane.
The problem is better stated as selfishness, not individualism. Being unique and individual is OK; thinking you're so fucking special that other people can eat shit so long as you get yours is not.
Saying the problem is selfishnes still presupposes individualism: the problem is that there are individuals who act selfishly and they should stop doing so. It centers the solution around the actions of individuals.
But as socialists, we know this is not the real answer. It is material conditions that force people into competition against one another and isolates us from each other. Socialism will by definition have to be far less individualistic, but you'll still have selfish people.
He's saying that. The point being made is collectivism is a requirement of building community and community is a requirement of the kind of culture that would lead to revolution. In order to have collectivism you must have less individualism. The two are polar opposites of cultural communal behaviour in contradiction to one another under capitalism. Individualism under capitalism creates selfish competition.
I don't think that's correct. What is needed for collective action is less selfishness, which is not the same as individualism. I can be a distinct, individual person with my own tastes, opinions, and desires and still participate in collective activities. That's just plain-old individualism, and that's fine. There are countless examples of all different sorts of collective endeavors that have different individuals coming together for the common good.
Where you run into problems is when that individualism turns into an unwillingness to do anything that doesn't perfectly align with one's personal goals, or a willingness to take one's ball and go home rather than accept less than 100% of what one wants. That's selfishness, and that's poison to collective efforts. Individualism can lead to selfishness in some circumstances, but it doesn't necessarily lead to selfishness. I know tons of people who are distinct individuals but who are the least selfish people you'll meet.
You are creating a new definition of individualism that focuses solely on personal identity and nothing else. That is not what the cultural battle over individualist and collectivist cultures is really about.
Individualism is not "having a personal identity". Individualist cultural is about working for oneself and pursuing competition against other individuals in society in order to drive a competitive atmosphere that results in the strongest/best rising out on top. Collectivist culture on the other hand is about building community links where everyone works together to raise everyone simultaneously.
Making "individualism" into an entirely new american definition meaning "having a personal identity" is a bastardisation of what it has always meant and been used to refer to within the context of socialist vs capitalist struggle over the last couple centuries. It is a distortion of the meaning.
Individualism under capitalism results in competition and atomisation of the working class, it actively creates that selfishness. That is why the bourgeoisie push it so hard.
In order to unite the working class you MUST lower individualism and build collectivism.
It's not a new definition: "the actions or attitudes of a person who does things without being concerned about what other people will think."
What I'm describing is very much part of the common definition of "individualism," even though there's also the more politicized definition you're referring to. This is why reactionaries insist on painting leftists as anti-individualism -- it doesn't sound absurd because they created the political definition, but it implies that leftists hate individualism in the "personal identity" sense, too. This is why Cold War propaganda characterized the commies as straight-backed, assembly line automatons while the Free World got cool, individual consumer stuff like blue jeans and rock and roll.
Well yeah, the whole point here is that it's better to frame this cultural battle as selfishness vs. collectivism instead of individualism vs. collectivism. We shouldn't be playing on a field created by chuds in the first place, and "selfishness" really is a more precise descriptor of what we're criticizing. No one on the left is opposed to individualism in as much as individualism means just being your own person. There's no reason we should accept anything that sounds like that as a starting premise. Even individual excellence isn't really something any left philosophy has a big problem with; the problem only arises when a person wants to keep far more than they could ever need for themselves, personally, at the expense of many others (i.e., selfishness).
I mean, good luck selling this on Americans. It seems much easier to point out that individualism is fine so long as it doesn't become selfishness. People already like individualism and dislike selfishness. Why not use that instead of fighting it? Do you honestly think the left is going to have success trotting out "you need to give up your individualism" to Americans?
Ok. It's not a new definition. It's the lib definition. We're marxists though. We use the marxist definition.
This is called opportunism. You want to compromise on what ACTUALLY needs to be done because it is long and difficult, sending the movement down the wrong path and setting it back.
What needs to be done can not be changed. Yes it is long and difficult. But it is what needs to be done. Failure to commit to the longterm effort and falling into opportunist mindset is how movements end up going off-track.
Yes. You must sell that to Americans. An outcome that must occur through mass class consciousness building and the spreading of theory. The people will come around to it when they understand what socialism is, what its goals are and what its fundamentals truly are instead of the distortions they have in mind currently. They will do this because they will realise that it is right, correct, and in their best interests. The problem is not a matter of convincing people emotionally, it's not an emotional-based topic, we are simply RIGHT, it is an educational problem, the people must be educated. That will occur over time as more and more and more people learn resulting in more that are out there also teaching.
Yes it is long and hard. Deal with it. Opportunism is not the way.
This is just "everything I don't like is liberal." There is no Marxist definition of "individualism," and certainly not one that applies to 21st-century culture wars slap fights.
You are wrong here. Do a little bit of self-crit and accept that a literal dictionary definition is generally going to reflect how people commonly use the term. That's the whole reason right wingers frame the debate as "individualism vs. collectivism" -- because it makes it sound like leftists want to take away your personal identity, which sounds shitty because it would be shitty. There's no reason we should be playing into that.
Show me anywhere in any sort of leftist writing that says "you have to give up your personal identity to achieve socialism." I must have missed that in Lenin.
Plenty of education and plenty of collective work gets done without asking people to abandon their personal identity. The problem is people who are selfish, not people who are their own person.