This was taken from an old prepper forum that I can't actually find. It has an interesting perspective and would be great to go in c/SHTF if that community existed. Anyway:
I grew up in West Africa and lived through Civil Wars in 3 nations: Liberia, Sierra Leone & Gambia. Literally as we escaped to another country, war broke out there (the point of that is unrest in one location can turn into unrest in a neighboring location)
I learned many lessons from these experiences and hope that my experience can be of some benefit to you as you prepare for whatever comes.
When society deteriorates, it's ugly. The majority of people are not prepared. During the first few days, people hold onto hope that things will go back to normal and someone will save them. For that week, many are largely in denial that what's going on will last longer than a few days.
About a week into a SHTF event like a civil war, people become EXTREMELY desperate. Parents start begging for food for their children, etc.
This is when you have to be very careful in helping others because you too could become an easy target. During one outbreak of war in Liberia, my family and others bugged out to heavily fortified military compound.
On our way to the compound, we had to stop and spend a night at a family friend's house. Armed robbers came to the house that night and tried to steal from us. The homeowner's wife was killed in the attack. She was shot through the window in front of us. They wanted to set the house on fire to smoke us out, but it was raining heavily that night and they apparently ran out of ammo.
They left and said they would be back. We fled the house right after and slept in the bushes on a nearby beach.
The next morning we made it to the compound where we stayed for months until a cease fire was called. The compound was attacked on two occasions during those months.
During another outbreak of war (the war lasted over a decade with periods of cease fire) when we didn't have that compound available, we traveled on foot across the city to my grandmother's house.
This time, the community tried to protect itself from armed robbers. We created a night watch of ordinary people that would monitor the neighborhood. Finding allies like this was very helpful.
Basic necessities were needed the most. Coffee, tea & sugar became the biggest commodities. People who smoke or drank gave those up quickly. If you were drunk or high, you were not attentive to potential attacks.
The people who joined the night watch got paid in food. You gave them enough food for that day.
Basic necessities bought you allies. The vast majority of people wanted some sense of normalcy. They didn't just turn into savages. My father had his coffee everyday for example.
Rice was a major staple because it filled you up. We often had it with something called bulgur wheat.
People needed toothpaste and powdered milk. Toilet paper was a luxury and very few people had them. After you've used newspapers, you'll work for free for TP.
Having a clean water supply was important. People often got sick from drinking unclean water so basic medication was also important.
Unless you were participating in the war, you didn't use much ammo to be honest. You also didn't want people knowing how many guns you had so you wouldn't be a target of armed robbers, especially if you were a small group. Using ammo could draw the wrong crowd so you didn't unless you had to defend your area.
While you're prepping, load up on basic necessities. People won't risk their lives for cigarettes or alcohol like you see in the movies, but they will risk their lives for food for their kids.
During those wars I experienced, people still banded together. They still wanted a sense of community, a sense of normalcy. Have like minded allies, even if they're not part of your immediate group.
One way we survived was by banding together and laying low. Don't show a lot of people your goods. The main thing is to survive and you do so by not drawing too much attention.
It's why I wouldn’t barter things like marijuana, much alcohol, etc. A lot of these things start to attract the wrong element. Stick to many basic necessities. During the war, rebels used child soldiers, these kids were drugged up. People who had marijuana attracted rebel forces who killed them and took their weed.
We experienced so much more than this but I hope this is helpful to you as you prep to survive without yourself becoming a target during a SHTF situation. A war is one of the worst SHTF situations to encounter.
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That's one of the reasons why having a diesel option for transportation is a good idea. Diesel can be stored for a longer time than gas.
horse is even better, most people have no clue how to make diesel or biodiesel, everyone knows how a horse works
food go in, fast come out
Uh... horses are fuckin' complicated as hell and if you plan on using one for transportation then you'll need at least one person besides you whose knowledge goes beyond "everyone knows how a horse works." No, everyone does not. Horses will straight up fucking die for no apparent reason if you don't know what you're up to.
My recommended end times transport method is bikes. Motorbikes, street racing bikes, dirt bikes, mopeds, fucking scooters if you can find and fuel one. The most efficient conversion of energy to mileage you're ever going to have ready to go in a situation like this is a human being. It might take longer, but at least it'll get there.
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we managed for thousands of years
fuel is a limited resource, even if people figure out how to make biodiesel, it takes days to make it usable
Remember Rasputin? Part of how he became considered a mystic was that he was REALLY good at treating horses. That was 120 years ago.
Horses are extremely difficult to take care of, particularly our overbred showhorses.
Have you ever ridden horseback at any point in your entire life. Because it sounds like you have not.
yes, quite a few times
Can you explain the operations of a stable to a complete novice well enough to reproduce its functions in a reliable manner? Because that's what you're going to have to do in an emergency situation like what we're talking about. I'm telling you, bikes are the way. If we ever get to the point that we can rely on horses for transport or communications, then that must mean we already have a shitload of other problems sorted out. It's nowhere near as easy as you seem to think.
all i am saying is that an animal is a renewable resource and food is easier to get than fuel
push bikes good, motorbikes bad once fuel runs out, or two stroke oil if you're looking at a crunchy
You're thinking long-term, and yes in the long run horses will be incredibly useful. But in the first twenty years after a SHTF event they will be worse than useless. They will consume more resources than they give back compared to just about anything else. Horses are what you use when you have your shit together, nobody is going to be in that position starting out.
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i doubt fuel will last 20 years mate
So do I, which is why I'm saying use bikes.
(BTW that was me upvoting you for having a good faith conversation about this, not because I an conceding the point.)
pushbikes are shit for transporting cargo
horses can be hooked up to a wagon or a cart
or oxen come to think of it, or cows at a push
or dogs
doing that with a pushbike dramatically reduces your range, and theres only so much you can fit in panniers/backpacks, plus on a pushbike it's gonna be far more tiring compared to a motorbike
I agree. I am not saying we won't ever use horses. But I am not about to put my 70-something mom on one, and if I need to get a routine message upriver to the 2nd St. Louis Comrades Brigade, I'm putting somebody on two wheels.
There is no one size fits all answer here, but bikes fill in a lot more of the gaps starting out. I mean if you're volunteering for the job of stablemaster...
fair point, but you could put her in a cart, anyone with basic woodworking knowledge and basic tools could knock a reasonably solid one together in a day
oh yeah, for small courier work over relatively short distances a pushbike is perfectly fine, I was more thinking about versatility and large cargo loads is pretty much the domain of the horse or ox (outside of motorised transport)
I agree with the overall thrust of your thinking here, but I think you are dramatically underestimating the amount of labor and expertise involved. While we still have electricity, I recommend you follow up on this line of thinking and put together a list of particulars you would expect of any group that intended to use horses, and while you're at it, get us prepared for using goats and donkeys too. How much water, how much straw, how much ranging room while they're not at work, how much fencing, what sort of structure will we need to build, those sorts of things.
one horse is about 5 to 10 gallons per day, more if worked hard/hot weather. Depending on access to a river, that could be an issue, but if you do have a natural source of water, setting up a makeshift purifier is pretty easy
1.5-2.5% of their body weight daily in forage, assuming you don't live in a desert, that can be made up with grass and other wild plants
tricky one, ideally, you would fence out as much room as you could reasonably defend/watch over. If you have very limited space, I can't see you having a horse handy in the first place
something that will stay up and protect from the weather pretty much
also this assumes the group wouldn't take up a nomadic lifestyle, which could be beneficial for keeping away from the fash
I don't know how much more gently I can put this: if you think this question can be answered in a comment, then you are still missing the point. I am giving you a homework assignment, this is not a pop quiz. I expect you to learn something when I send you on this mission. You are not showing your work right now.
what?
Here's what: it's going to take more effort to run a stable than what you just gave me for an answer to my question. The point of the question was to get you to explore the issue, not to give me whatever answer you had ready off the top of your head. I am presenting you with an invitation to use your insight for real value.
In other words, you will get instantly laughed at and ignored if you propose this idea in the event that you ever happen to be in a room where people must consider this an an option. I can pick up the phone right now and call someone who can tell me a lot more of what I need to know about horses. I'm pretty sure I can knock on a random door on my street and get that much. If this is a line of preparation you truly care about, then I am suggesting you master it.
so you are acting like a twat and talking down to me, got it
have you ever actually talked to people in real life?
Yes, have you? My pupils are doing great, I could not possibly be more proud of them. I must have mistaken you for one of them.
And I mistook you for someone whose opinion I might give a shit about
Good luck with that. Meanwhile I'm over here doing cardio with people who don't get their feelings hurt over not needlessly murdering horses. I'll still be around when you've gotten yourself over the heat of being corrected in the kindest way I know how to muster. For now though, I'm done here.
you vastly overestimate how much I care about your opinion
Every fool considers themselves wise.
ironic
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round here it's what we call pedal bikes
edit: yeah, i know what they are, but the increased weight means you are slower and can't go as far
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Liberate police horses!
Most people outside of rural areas don't know how to ride a horse.
Learning how to ride a horse isn't that hard.
But yeah, the rest of this horse plan is nonsense. There's a reason horses were a luxury through most of history. They're skittish fragile animals that die for no reason and don't fully know how to take care of themselves. If you really want to bet on animal power get an ox or something.
horse make food into fast
that isn't a plan
it's a dumb joke
i'm losing my fucking mind
I read the rest of the thread too, you know. It can't be just a dumb joke and also something you're willing to go around defending against legitimate criticism at the same time.
It's okay to say something dumb sometimes, we all do it. You don't need to dig in your heels. Take a break, maybe watch some SGDQ.
It started as a dumb joke, then people's criticisms sounded like they had never even seen a damn horse and/or thought fuel grew on trees
it's still a dumb joke
you can teach a child to do it in a day
Who is going to teach them? Where do those people come from? How are they going to teach them so fast? How do you even get the horses? I understand the benefits of a horse that you keep promoting, but I think you are vastly underestimating the logistics of converting tons of people to horseback. Horses have been a luxury from their domestication all the way until the American West. And then they became a luxury again when the automobile came around. A horse consume more food for its range than a car consumes gas. You can't just find horses everywhere. You can't just stable horses anywhere. Horses have to be meticulously maintained far more regularly than a car or a bike. A horse can break a leg in a hole in the ground and it's done forever. No spare tires. Horses get tired. Horses get hungry. Horses can catch diseases. Horses get agitated. People today are not familiar with horses like they have been thousands of years. A horse is not a sudden increase in motion and transport like in a video game. To propose that people switch to horses over bikes and cars is frankly naive.
people who already know, that's how education works
space
the same way they teach literal children now
you already have them
a horse makes food into fast joke has become me as an equestrian zealot now
tell that to the Mongols
because car better until no fuel, then car big paperweight
a farm is easier to set up than a petroleum refinery
nah mate, i walk out my door and i cant help but rip over the bloody things, got mugged by one last week, fucking feral
and here was me thinking i could just cram one into the cupboard
feed the horse, brush the horse, treat the horse for illness, remove the horse shit from the horse's house
mmmmmmm lasagne
cyborg horse
rest the horse
feed the horse
treat the horse for illness
yeah, they're big dumb animals, what's your point?
people today are not familiar with civil war either
the fuck does this even mean
no fuel bad
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I read a young adult novel when I was a kid - I think it was a class assignment. It was written from the perspective of a young girl. Her dad built a vehicle that was human powered (pedals?), could have the wheels swapped out to ride on rails, and a mast for a sail - carried all four of them. I think the setting involved hyperinflation and societal collapse in the united states. I can't find it or figure out what the fuck it was called. I remember they stopped at a chain restaurant at some point and the townies tried to scalp them (figuratively).