I keep seeing "fuck tankies" everywhere, and seem to see people getting called "tankie" for any number of things--I used to feel like I knew what it meant (the formal definition, which I thought was the only application) but that's clearly not the case anymore. Saw someone get called one because they... Liked the idea of universal basic income and wanted walkable cities? And now the same sentiment is on a large number of Lemmy communities, lol.
I feel like I've been living under a rock.
Edit: Wow, I guess it's just as meaningless of a term now as it seemed. At least it's a nice, bright flag for ghouls not worth engaging with meaningfully, lol. I saw "fuck tankies" on a genderqueer community and got pretty confused on how the two ideas correlated in the slightest, so I guess that was the tipping point on me finally asking about it.
anyone with the smallest criticism of US Imperialism is a tankie now
Wow so you think slavery was bad, didn't know I was talking to a tankie
Yeah I'm a tankie, I support going back in time to give Sherman a Sherman
"US has historically treated black people poorly"? Mmm nice Kremlin propaganda 🙄
It means whatever it needs to mean in the context in which it is deployed.
It's a tool deployed by liberals against people to the left of them in exactly the same way that woke is a tool deployed by reactionaries against people to the left of them.
It gets deployed against everything from ML to anarchist to even socdems, depending on whether you say something that goes against the US' imperial core goals.
The purpose of the tool is thought-termination. To prevent people from listening to the person that it is deployed against. Reactionaries use woke to prevent people among their ranks from listening to anything reasonable the ""woke"" person might say, and liberals use tankie to prevent people among their ranks from listening to anything reasonable the left might say.
It is an adaptation of mccarthyite behaviour.
You ain't done nothing if you ain't been called a Red applies now to this word just as much as it applied back then.
Awoo as always never dissapointing and making one of the best responses in the whole thread. Love you for this 🫀
It's become a catch all insult for anyone to the left of Biden, pretty much. It's totally divorced from it's original meaning and used as a thought terminating cliche at this point.
Ah, that explains a lot. The current state of political discourse is... Very good and productive.
Look at the election next year, Trump and Biden again, we're fucked.
because there are some Stalinists or just dumb people who are proud of their country or a country they didn't even live in.
The Soviet Union won World War 2 and saved the world from fascism. Millions of Red Army soldiers and Russian civilians died at the hands of fascists and we are in their debt
I don't get how doing what is so obviously good makes you a good leader, that just makes the west bad because they basically helped hitler. Also this "we are in their dept thinking isn't really a productive argument.
Why can people just admit that there are some truths and not everything was good.
Communism is not an ideology that can be done by just reading a basic rulebook and blindly believing historic anecdotes that are hard to verify or just straight up wrong.
I also want to believe that there were good and powerful communist leaderships, I can understand that.
How does wanting to understand make me a lib? Isn't this kind of flagging people what left ideologies criticise?
Just give me some real facts or evidence and I am happy, if you can't show me these you are reactionistic and conter-revolutionary.
Why? You haven't provided shit outside your opinions, which are clearly just ahistorical propogandistic horseshit. If you think Lenin was 'less harsh' than Stalin I have some bad fucking news for you, according to everybody but Khrushchev, that was very much not the case. Molotov famously discussed this in his memoirs.
We have no obligation to educate you, you are not a known party member in an organization, you are on an anonymous leftist shit posting forum. Go be a liberal debate pervert elsewhere.
If you think Lenin was 'less harsh' than Stalin I have some bad fucking news for you
I don't get how doing what is so obviously good makes you a good leader
doing good is not the mark of good leadership? what, pray tell, makes a good leader then?
Stalin was a bad dictator, Lenin I think was not, Mao tried to be good but also made some mistakes and turned evil in his last years.
I swear to god I recognise this word for word from somewhere else
With this logic, i assume they think that Chernenko was the greatest Soviet General Secretary.
Stalin was a "bad" "dictator?"
You "think" that Lenin wasn't a "bad" "dictator?"
Mao "turned evil in his last years?"
Do you not understand why these liberal nerd opinions are not well received on a communist forum?
EDIT: Also "Stalinists?" How about fuck off.
huh? I am literally just trying to understand and see your points but ok, if you want to make fun of me, then you're not even really trying to show me what my mistake is.
We don't believe Stalin, Lenin, or Mao were dictators. We believe they were elected party officials who did not exercise ultimate authority. Stalin for instance attempted to resign 4 times and was overruled. We also believe Stalin exercised authority in much of the same way that Lenin would have.
In terms of Mao we tend to go with the 70/30 split of good/bad. We also don't tend to say he was evil in his later years, but rather, more like he became a little inefficient and China was going through a rough spot that had a course correction with Deng.
I hope that helps. I think some people here are seeing you as some kind of troll talking to us in bad faith. I try to assume the best.
Deng was a right-deviationist at least as much as Mao was a left-deviationist, and he is given too much credit for "solving" an economic problem that was essentially invented by liberal accountants who didn't understand the economy under Mao. It is also true that he protected China's national sovereignty and that much of the damage he did was able to be undone in subsequent decades while the useful elements were preserved.
For anyone interested in this I am finding Gao Mobo's The Battle for China's Past a good accounting of the attitudes in China towards the Cultural Revolution and Mao in general. I feel like I'm missing a general background on some of the communist members he refers to, but otherwise so far I recommend it. Does a good job of debunking the more egregious caricatures of Mao
Thanks this is literally the first answer that helps. I actually did know from a leaked CIA document that there even were democratic processes in Stalin's time.
What I don't like that much about Mao is this propaganda reducation camps or something like that.
Look around at America, at the hate churches, nazi militias, qanon cults, and endless mass shootings. We are incredibly fucked up here, and any communist movement that might come to power is gonna need to put a whole lot of people in re-education. The alternatives are worse.
I think that’s the thing, honestly. Chuds and libs fear the potential of needing to learn something new or challenging to their existing beliefs
Reeducation wouldn’t be needed if the US wasn’t inherently anti-intellectual
China did manage to rehabilitate and re-eduacte Emperor Puyi. That's something.
What I don't like that much about Mao is this propaganda reducation camps or something like that.
Would you prefer prisoners simply be tortured or left to rot like they are in nearly every other prison system around the world?
It is amazing that you still do not believe in mandatory re-education camps after seeing all the shit takes libs drop.
I don't belive that reeducation camps are something bad. I mean we do it all the time with people that are too dangerous for society like mass murderes or rapists.
I just think that there is no reason for violence in this.
We can just do it like school does: In my 12 years of primary education I have been taught that you should behave as capitalistic as you can be: We even had a lecture called "economy and politics" where we mostly talked about how to inverst or on how to start your own buissness. The only "politics" we had were west-centric post WW2 propaganda in which they told us how good the west has been for my country: Germany.
And the dumb thing is that in every country there is you can study this lecture basically at the university. Here it's called "Betriebswirtschaftslehre" which would more or less be "Buissness administration" . This is a lecture that talkes about economy with the following premises: The human is evil, won't share, aka Communism bad Captalism good.
And this really is the go to education for most people here that either suck at learning (because it's easy) or don't know what to study.
Even in Stalin's time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist power structure.
- Declassified CIA report from the 1950's
Even the CIA knew that calling Stalin a dictator was bullshit.
Also Mao "turned evil"? Come on.
Clearly you have totally internalized the "pop-history" view of socialism in the 20th century, surely you realize such a simplified narrative cannot help but hide ideological bias.
Stalin was a bad dictator
Technically true since he followed democracy.
Stalin was a bad dictator, Lenin I think was not, Mao tried to be good but also made some mistakes and turned evil in his last years.
excuse me? Do you know where you are?
Liberals think it means someone who lies about wanting socialism and instead just wants to kill people. They think it refers to a proponent of a society where all decisions are made by a single crackpot dictator. They think they have a correct view on how to create and institute socialism, which would involve things like voting in elections, organizing pickets, and very slowly seizing power through mass appeal. As a corollary to this, liberals believe this type of socialism has already been achieved in places like Sweden and Denmark. Depending on how much they've read socialist theory they may also point to Catalonia or the Zapatistas, but they'll usually be referring to completely imaginary mangled versions of these events that don't reflect history.
What tankie means in practice though is something more like "race traitor." Or "nation traitor." Liberals will say they hate the west's actions and what it stands for, but what they really mean is they hate everywhere else more. Any designated enemies of western countries are permanent enemies and outside of liberal values. People who call themselves socialists will still use this dichotomy. Tankie means someone who expresses sympathy for countries that have been designated as enemies to the west. You'll notice that Xi Jinping himself isn't called a tankie. Stalin's not a tankie. Figures like that get called authoritarians or dictators. Tankie is someone in the west who has broken convention and gone to the bad guys. That's all it means at this point.
I really believe there's been a decades long project to usurp socialist rhetoric by liberals, whether they realize it or not. The existence of tankies threatens their reputation, because it draws socialist terminology back into scary communism. Liberals have spent decades trying to position themselves as the true, good leftists. That only works if they can paint socialist movements worldwide as liars and their own internal socialists as traitors
Was hoping to find your definition of tankie here
What tankie means in practice though is something more like "race traitor." Or "nation traitor."
yeah I'm hoping the idea gets more widespread that "tankie" has racist connotations built into it
“Person on the left I disagree with”
Aka “woke” for democrats
It's supposed to mean "authoritarian leftist" (the concept of authoritarianism as a distinct political trait / goal is a key part of horse-shit theory), but the assholes who say that also insist that "true leftism" is inherently libertarian and cannot be authoritarian, and so actually tankies are just red-fash masquerading as leftists -- they hate to even acknowledge a family resemblance.
So these people based their understanding on the political compass (which is trash), but then also decided that their own frame of understanding was shitty and broken because by having an authoritarian-left axis at all, it didn't condemn tankies enough.
I've been called a tankie, an anarckiddie, a snowflake, and a lib. I consider it the online left equivalent of an EGOT
opposing imperialism, colonialism, racism, capitalism, patriarchy, animal abuse, domestic violence, or pollution in a way that is not utterly ineffectual or pacifistic
spoiler
even pacifists get called tankie for having rhetoric that's too "mean"
even pacifists get called tankie for having rhetoric that's too "mean"
See: Roger Waters
Tankie is just the lib version of woke
It basically means 'leftist'
Eventually it drifted from it's original meaning to instead mean "Marxist-Leninist, or an adjacent Marxist ideology (anything from Trots to MLM or MTW, but mostly ML) which is an ideology I hate due to American propaganda," and I think it was basically used that way for a long time; then more recently it's become a term for "Anyone who doesn't unequivocally condemn designated enemies of the US state." This more recent drift means an anarchist or even a social democrat who doesn't support Azov Battalion, the IOF or Syrian "moderate rebels" can be labeled a tankie, making it essentially a meaningless term.
The nice thing is that if someone calls someone else a tankie you can basically immediately know that the first person is some disgusting globe emoji ghoul.
EDIT: Of course, you sound like you already know this, but for anyone who doesn't, the original meaning was "ML who didn't support the fascist counterrevolution in Hungary."
its the new "commie" or "red"
all you need to know really
it's a term used only to signify ingroup versus outgroup in the context of right wing debate nerd circles.
it's the political equivalent of 'slut' or 'hipster' in the way those terms functionally mean 'person who is having more sex than me' and 'person who is cooler than me'
I've yet to see a conservative call anyone a tankie. They're content to just say communist as a pejorative.
Maybe not online MAGA types but I've seen "regular" conservatives in real life use it to refer to communists
iirc Boris Johnson called Corbyn a Tankie back in like 2017 or so and it sees occasional use by other british conservatives
Edit: found an article about it https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/05/boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn-labour-left-tankies-trots-conservative-conference