The most basic, seemingly reliable facts about what’s happening:
schools in Xinxiang don’t teach the Uighur’s language
the camps and a lot of the development are focussed on sinicizing the Uighurs, explicitly
the main form of assimilation is making the Uighur’s ‘fit into the economy’, as if they’re not fine just how they are thank you very much haha
the Chinese government had consistently claimed the camps were about ‘combatting terrorism’, before pivoting to ‘it’s all about skills training and cultural assimilation etc.’
This is all pretty basic stuff that I think all ‘sides’ agree upon. And different people will read this differently, but to me it absolutely screams cultural genocide.
the Chinese government had consistently claimed the camps were about ‘combatting terrorism’, before pivoting to ‘it’s all about skills training and cultural assimilation etc.’
I don't think that's accurate though, according to what I've seen the schools are teaching Uyghur in schools still, and the camps are focused on jobs training. The whole combating of terrorism and skills training fit hand in hand with it there. You can see more here: https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/breaking-down-the-bbcs-visit-to-hotan-xinjiang-e284934a7aab
I read that piece a while ago, thanks hahaha. No one is certain if the camps are voluntary, there’s no way to know that. And there’s a lot of evidence they aren’t.
Frankly, I see no reason to give the Chinese state the benefit of the doubt on this, just as many here see no reason not to.
Ultimately, there is too much we don’t know, which is damning in its own right imo.
I mean I'd assume that the streets aren't empty should prove that Zenz is a fucking liar and to err on the side of believing that the Chinese government isn't doing something heinous since they never have before to other minority populations at least as far as I'm aware
Zenz isn’t the only human on earth saying there’s something not quite right happening in XinJiang, despite what a lot of people seem to believe. He’s a major source, and one to be ignored, but he’s not literally the only source haha. And I knew he would come up, which is why in my list comment here I tried to stick to things that the Chinese government had explicitly stated themselves.
He isn't, but they lean on him very heavily, and I haven't seen many other prevailing anti-Chinese sources on Xinjiang in Western media. All the ones I've seen are anti-Communist.
On what? That the Chinese government claims the camps are to combat terrorism and offer skills training? That the main goal is to make the Uighurs fit into the Chinese economy? Which is a form of sinicization, along with Mandarin and probably other tacit cultural knowledge taught in the camps? That's all pretty open imo I'm not gonna bother googling that for you haha that’s pretty much the list I posted
The only thing is ‘to what extent is Uighur-language education available?’ And it’s complex, and there’s very little information about it. But my reading doesn’t fundamentally change in either context, tbh
I won’t lie tho, I don’t particularly have the capacity for a struggle session right now. This is a famously frustrating one, too haha. No one really has much information (which is suspicious to me), and lots of people have strong feelings about whether it’s good or bad to criticize the camps, usually for broader reasons not necessarily specifically to do with XinJiang. It’s... a lot haha o7
I actually don't have a super firm opinion on this stuff. If you look at the top comment here right now, it's me saying what a shitty equivocation this is to the holocaust. It's nothing like that. But on the other hand, there is very little room to be critical of the camps on here which is frustrating. It's scary haha you don't want to say your thoughts cuz people are very quick to anger on the issue, for probably good reason I guess.
But they could have done day schools in communities, like every other 'skills training program' on earth, right? But they did something very different. Idk, I'm fine with being critical until we learn more. That's, like, a fine thing to do hahaha
I don't know anything about murder. I definitely never claimed people are being murdered, I've never seen evidence of that happening. 21 million is ironically most commonly discussed as the total number of ppl who live in XinJiang haha so that's kinda... sus? Not entirely sure what you're getting at tbh
Yeah this is more or less the case with specific regional dialects of Mandarin. It fuckin sucks but you're correct in saying that those dialects are still taught and learned at home. With regard to other languages, as opposed to dialects, I'm pretty sure that autonomous regions and historically minority-inhabited areas teach in both the minority language and Mandarin.
There's no cultural genocide happening, though, and the BBC tried really hard to make you think otherwise.
The most basic, seemingly reliable facts about what’s happening:
This is all pretty basic stuff that I think all ‘sides’ agree upon. And different people will read this differently, but to me it absolutely screams cultural genocide.
this isn't contradictory
In fact, teaching people skills that will help them better integrate into society is a very good deterrent of terrorism
I don't think that's accurate though, according to what I've seen the schools are teaching Uyghur in schools still, and the camps are focused on jobs training. The whole combating of terrorism and skills training fit hand in hand with it there. You can see more here: https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/breaking-down-the-bbcs-visit-to-hotan-xinjiang-e284934a7aab
I read that piece a while ago, thanks hahaha. No one is certain if the camps are voluntary, there’s no way to know that. And there’s a lot of evidence they aren’t.
Frankly, I see no reason to give the Chinese state the benefit of the doubt on this, just as many here see no reason not to.
Ultimately, there is too much we don’t know, which is damning in its own right imo.
I mean I'd assume that the streets aren't empty should prove that Zenz is a fucking liar and to err on the side of believing that the Chinese government isn't doing something heinous since they never have before to other minority populations at least as far as I'm aware
Zenz isn’t the only human on earth saying there’s something not quite right happening in XinJiang, despite what a lot of people seem to believe. He’s a major source, and one to be ignored, but he’s not literally the only source haha. And I knew he would come up, which is why in my list comment here I tried to stick to things that the Chinese government had explicitly stated themselves.
He isn't, but they lean on him very heavily, and I haven't seen many other prevailing anti-Chinese sources on Xinjiang in Western media. All the ones I've seen are anti-Communist.
I mean, I know that just as much as you do. I just have a different interpretation, I suppose. Nothing wrong with that.
I mean, how do you prove something you're not doing?
hey your interpretation seems lo line up more with the CIA narrative than the social and material reality.. haha kinda weird lol
I mean, it's either Zenz or someone affiliated with NED, Turkey or the US.
You don't by chance have a source on that handy?
On what? That the Chinese government claims the camps are to combat terrorism and offer skills training? That the main goal is to make the Uighurs fit into the Chinese economy? Which is a form of sinicization, along with Mandarin and probably other tacit cultural knowledge taught in the camps? That's all pretty open imo I'm not gonna bother googling that for you haha that’s pretty much the list I posted
The only thing is ‘to what extent is Uighur-language education available?’ And it’s complex, and there’s very little information about it. But my reading doesn’t fundamentally change in either context, tbh
I won’t lie tho, I don’t particularly have the capacity for a struggle session right now. This is a famously frustrating one, too haha. No one really has much information (which is suspicious to me), and lots of people have strong feelings about whether it’s good or bad to criticize the camps, usually for broader reasons not necessarily specifically to do with XinJiang. It’s... a lot haha o7
I actually don't have a super firm opinion on this stuff. If you look at the top comment here right now, it's me saying what a shitty equivocation this is to the holocaust. It's nothing like that. But on the other hand, there is very little room to be critical of the camps on here which is frustrating. It's scary haha you don't want to say your thoughts cuz people are very quick to anger on the issue, for probably good reason I guess.
But they could have done day schools in communities, like every other 'skills training program' on earth, right? But they did something very different. Idk, I'm fine with being critical until we learn more. That's, like, a fine thing to do hahaha
He seems to be the only one claiming 21 million people have been murdered though, which seems pretty easy to veryify either way.
I don't know anything about murder. I definitely never claimed people are being murdered, I've never seen evidence of that happening. 21 million is ironically most commonly discussed as the total number of ppl who live in XinJiang haha so that's kinda... sus? Not entirely sure what you're getting at tbh
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Yeah this is more or less the case with specific regional dialects of Mandarin. It fuckin sucks but you're correct in saying that those dialects are still taught and learned at home. With regard to other languages, as opposed to dialects, I'm pretty sure that autonomous regions and historically minority-inhabited areas teach in both the minority language and Mandarin.