I mean I'm not American so I'm just going to be honest and very blunt here, I don't get this argument for joining at all. The US military complex has literally assisted in the ruining of hundreds of countries, including mine (research about US support for Apartheid South Africa). By joining, even in a non combat or deployment role, these people are directly assisting the US military in the destabilisation of countries worldwide. It's just such a uninformed mindset, "oh I can't find a job so I'm going to directly assist in the destruction of your country". The left in America should absolutely talk to veterans and potential recruits to prevent them joining, but fuck as a non American that has to live with the consequences of America supporting
and providing military assistance to the apartheid government (including in covering up nuclear weapons tests) my empathy is really low for shit like this. Even when I was 16 I knew it was wrong to join an imperialist military, my empathy is just really low for shit like this.
Nice to see that the continuous struggle sessions about US soldiers continued onto the new site. Nobody else, no matter how terrible their material conditions, gets as much leeway from American lefties as the poor little US soldier lmao
"Oh, I was going to be sympathetic towards abolishing homelessness, but you made fun of US imperial forces in a meme, so I have no choice but to support Tom Cotton for president" - the theoretical US troop
I mean I get it, there's a ton of propaganda and incentives to join the military as an American citizen. But at some point you have to pick what side you're on, and the US military is not on the side of the people anywhere on this planet.
Still, at some point you have to pick a side, and if America invades my country or starts CIA ops in the coming future I'm not going to give two shits about what propoganda they were under or how they couldn't get a job and want free college. I'm going to want them the fuck out.
Not only has this struggle session followed from the sub, up until this thread I feel like every time it's come up, the people making excuses for the troops seemed to be the only people talking, I thought I was going crazy
I just think there's some stuff that should remain an intra-community discussion. Americans talking to other Americans about how to turn their vets into comrades - ok, whatever, go forth, do your thing. But if chapochat is supposed to be for people from around the world, then it just becomes bizarre to watch one person say that their country is being hurt by US military policy, and then get a whole group of people trying to convince them that akshually, the soldiers carrying out said policy just want college, you have to understand... To put it crudely, there's certainly a lot of worth in discussing the material conditions of Germans in the 1930s, but you don't necessarily have to discuss them while a person from 1940s Belarus is in the room.
Funny how we don't see that sympathy for any other horrible military organisation. Excited to defend the IDF the same way: "Well you don't understand, they're conscripted, they'd go to jail if they refuse to serve, they'd have difficulty finding a good job if it came out that they didn't serve, their propaganda is so intense, most are in a supporting role anyway, how do you think Israeli leftists will fight off fascists if they're the only ones NOT trained, they're just 18 and there's intense social pressure from all their friends joining at the same time..." I'm sure I won't get branded a fash sympathiser or anything :)
Eh, prison would be pretty extreme. There are plenty of ways to be free of the military without too heavy consequences. Probably not a common example, but I was able to barracks lawyer my way into getting booted out to avoid stop-loss and a 2nd deployment, while still keeping my benefits. There are ways, and I think these ways are key to help turn some of them...
One thing you should all be aware of in discussions about "the troops": The GI Rights Hotline. From their website:
Since 1994, the GI Rights Hotline has been providing free, confidential, and accurate information on US military regulations and practices to servicemembers, veterans, potential recruits, and their families.
We are a consortium of nearly twenty non-governmental, non-profit organizations located in eleven states and in Germany. Some of our counselors are veterans, some are lawyers and some have decades of military counseling experience. We are in constant contact with each other to stay up-to-date on the latest military regulations and practices.
We provide resources and counseling options. Many of us are not lawyers and therefore cannot give legal advice, but, in cases in which an attorney might be useful, we may be able to help you find one.
Why is this important? Basically they act as expert advocates for soldiers who generally have no clue about their rights and/or navigating the military legal system. If soldiers are trying to get out, or are in trouble for something else, like failing a piss test, these people can help them break free with the least amount of damage to their record.
In addition to the GI Rights Hotline, there are some veteran's antiwar groups like About Face and Iraq Veterans Against the War who are also extremely helpful in this regard.
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Well prison or murder innocent civilians overseas, your choice. Or just don't join in the first place.
Btw I'm not downbearing you, it's interesting to hear other perspectives
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I remember reading a thread on old Chapo that actually debunked the claim that most recruits do it for economic reasons
I mean I'm not American so I'm just going to be honest and very blunt here, I don't get this argument for joining at all. The US military complex has literally assisted in the ruining of hundreds of countries, including mine (research about US support for Apartheid South Africa). By joining, even in a non combat or deployment role, these people are directly assisting the US military in the destabilisation of countries worldwide. It's just such a uninformed mindset, "oh I can't find a job so I'm going to directly assist in the destruction of your country". The left in America should absolutely talk to veterans and potential recruits to prevent them joining, but fuck as a non American that has to live with the consequences of America supporting and providing military assistance to the apartheid government (including in covering up nuclear weapons tests) my empathy is really low for shit like this. Even when I was 16 I knew it was wrong to join an imperialist military, my empathy is just really low for shit like this.
Nice to see that the continuous struggle sessions about US soldiers continued onto the new site. Nobody else, no matter how terrible their material conditions, gets as much leeway from American lefties as the poor little US soldier lmao
"Oh, I was going to be sympathetic towards abolishing homelessness, but you made fun of US imperial forces in a meme, so I have no choice but to support Tom Cotton for president" - the theoretical US troop
I mean I get it, there's a ton of propaganda and incentives to join the military as an American citizen. But at some point you have to pick what side you're on, and the US military is not on the side of the people anywhere on this planet.
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Still, at some point you have to pick a side, and if America invades my country or starts CIA ops in the coming future I'm not going to give two shits about what propoganda they were under or how they couldn't get a job and want free college. I'm going to want them the fuck out.
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Not only has this struggle session followed from the sub, up until this thread I feel like every time it's come up, the people making excuses for the troops seemed to be the only people talking, I thought I was going crazy
I just think there's some stuff that should remain an intra-community discussion. Americans talking to other Americans about how to turn their vets into comrades - ok, whatever, go forth, do your thing. But if chapochat is supposed to be for people from around the world, then it just becomes bizarre to watch one person say that their country is being hurt by US military policy, and then get a whole group of people trying to convince them that akshually, the soldiers carrying out said policy just want college, you have to understand... To put it crudely, there's certainly a lot of worth in discussing the material conditions of Germans in the 1930s, but you don't necessarily have to discuss them while a person from 1940s Belarus is in the room.
They're literally repeating the phrasing in the meme, zero self awareness
Funny how we don't see that sympathy for any other horrible military organisation. Excited to defend the IDF the same way: "Well you don't understand, they're conscripted, they'd go to jail if they refuse to serve, they'd have difficulty finding a good job if it came out that they didn't serve, their propaganda is so intense, most are in a supporting role anyway, how do you think Israeli leftists will fight off fascists if they're the only ones NOT trained, they're just 18 and there's intense social pressure from all their friends joining at the same time..." I'm sure I won't get branded a fash sympathiser or anything :)
Yes.
Eh, prison would be pretty extreme. There are plenty of ways to be free of the military without too heavy consequences. Probably not a common example, but I was able to barracks lawyer my way into getting booted out to avoid stop-loss and a 2nd deployment, while still keeping my benefits. There are ways, and I think these ways are key to help turn some of them...
One thing you should all be aware of in discussions about "the troops": The GI Rights Hotline. From their website:
Why is this important? Basically they act as expert advocates for soldiers who generally have no clue about their rights and/or navigating the military legal system. If soldiers are trying to get out, or are in trouble for something else, like failing a piss test, these people can help them break free with the least amount of damage to their record.
In addition to the GI Rights Hotline, there are some veteran's antiwar groups like About Face and Iraq Veterans Against the War who are also extremely helpful in this regard.