I said it before and I'll say it again. A high schooler working part time as a McDonald's cashier is braver than all the troops
Yes, after working as a waiter for a bit, I have massive respect for anyone who works in the service industry/fast food/grocery stores, etc. People are a nightmare to deal with, and that's a fucking understatement. Literally braver than all the troops o7.
I don't entirely agree. I imagine being fucked off to iraq at the age of 18 is an awful experience, especially if they see combat. Also especially if you did it because your other options had dried up - being forced to kill.
The correct take. Most of the military chuds who wear those cringe grunt style shirts probably had a desk job or a cook. The ones who actually trained in combat or were deployed wither turned into complete hippies or stay quiet about and don’t parade around like their owed something . Identify the ones who are broken and willing to see their mistakes and they’ll fairly likely to see our cause.
I browse military subreddits and they were opposing the actions in Portland by police and the feds. They’re not all bad.
It's funny how we have no qualms saying ACAB, with some of the common lines being "they're an occupying force in our own country" (true), "the profession attracts bad people" (also true) and "even if not every individual cop is personally bad, the duties inherent of being a police officer necessitates enforcing systems of violence and oppression" (also true as well). But for some leftists, being an occupying force in someone else's country is just A-OK with them! It doesn't matter if they enforced US-Imperialism in the most literal sense possible, we got to get them on our side guise! The people who bomb villages to get a Camero need to be on our side!
You might say that soldiers flipping allegiance turned the tides in the Russian revolution, but those soldiers were in the same positions as the revolutionaries, only they were conscripted into the army, mistreated, underpaid, and pissed off that they were being forced to fight in a pointless war. Modern day troops chose to kill and imperialize for money, most of them are going to be against us. And don't say a god damn thing about "oh they had to do it so they could acheive a good standard of living", because a) it's not their only option, b) valuing your own self interests over the lives of others is the least socialist thing you could do, and c) the economic incentives also apply to cops, even more so in fact. that doesn't excuse what they do.
TLDR: If ACAB, ATAB, and ACAB.
It's past 10 o clock in the night, putting in a late shift there comrade
Yeah that's fine but if it gets to the point you're deployed as an imperialist tool overseas you have a moral obligation to quit.
Well prison or murder innocent civilians overseas, your choice. Or just don't join in the first place.
Btw I'm not downbearing you, it's interesting to hear other perspectives
I remember reading a thread on old Chapo that actually debunked the claim that most recruits do it for economic reasons
The claim that most troops join for economic reasons is propaganda to try get citizens to emphasize with the military imo
It's also rather regional and historical. It's not an outlandish claim in that it used to be true for some people. For example, for a lot of hilbilly Puerto Ricans who were poor as shit, joining the military WAS one of the only ways to lift your family out of poverty. Lots of lower middle class Puerto Rican families have grandparents that were former military, and they only got there because they kind of had no other option at the time.
Nowadays it's mostly kids who grew up with military family who join and not necessarily to escape abject poverty like back in the day.
There are those who join for economic reasons still, but to claim that the majority of people join for economic reasons while all data shows otherwise is a form of very subtle propoganda imo
I can't speak to the economic status of of the military, but I think it would make more sense from a propo standpoint if you say they did not join for economic reasons. Like, saying it was type of calling, or something.
The US definitely does both. The whole joining for patriotic reasons propoganda is aimed at right leaning folks, and the joining for economic reasons is aimed at left leaning people.
Using Bureau of Labor Statistics data from 1997 to 2008, they found that the services have recruited primarily from the middle class, America’s largest socio-economic demographic.
If we're Marxists, which I hope to fuck some of you are, you know that the term "middle class" is arbitrary as fuck. The "middle class" in this country is not the house with white picket fence and two dogs shit, and it hasn't been that since the 1970s. The "middle class" in this country are not bourgeoisie and the vast vast majority of them are not petite bourgeoisie either. They are employees, they are proles; unless you want to make the MTW argument that there are no proles in the US, which is a completely different conversation.
This article also doesn't differentiate between officers and enlisted, which are two different ballgames. Officers are generally scum and come from higher income backgrounds.
I mean I'm not American so I'm just going to be honest and very blunt here, I don't get this argument for joining at all. The US military complex has literally assisted in the ruining of hundreds of countries, including mine (research about US support for Apartheid South Africa). By joining, even in a non combat or deployment role, these people are directly assisting the US military in the destabilisation of countries worldwide. It's just such a uninformed mindset, "oh I can't find a job so I'm going to directly assist in the destruction of your country". The left in America should absolutely talk to veterans and potential recruits to prevent them joining, but fuck as a non American that has to live with the consequences of America supporting and providing military assistance to the apartheid government (including in covering up nuclear weapons tests) my empathy is really low for shit like this. Even when I was 16 I knew it was wrong to join an imperialist military, my empathy is just really low for shit like this.
Nice to see that the continuous struggle sessions about US soldiers continued onto the new site. Nobody else, no matter how terrible their material conditions, gets as much leeway from American lefties as the poor little US soldier lmao
"Oh, I was going to be sympathetic towards abolishing homelessness, but you made fun of US imperial forces in a meme, so I have no choice but to support Tom Cotton for president" - the theoretical US troop
I mean I get it, there's a ton of propaganda and incentives to join the military as an American citizen. But at some point you have to pick what side you're on, and the US military is not on the side of the people anywhere on this planet.
Still, at some point you have to pick a side, and if America invades my country or starts CIA ops in the coming future I'm not going to give two shits about what propoganda they were under or how they couldn't get a job and want free college. I'm going to want them the fuck out.
I'm sorry but thinking you're going to get the military on your side is incredibly idealistic. Look at how well that worked with cops or the DHS. This is because, contrary to popular belief in leftist circles, the majority of the military are essentially upper class people volunteering their service out of love for the empire. Chuds essentially. I know this is a bit out of date and from the heritage Foundation, but it's a good read none the less.
https://www.heritage.org/defense/report/who-serves-the-us-military-the-demographics-enlisted-troops-and-officers
Ok how about a source from 2018 from the Undersecretary of defense, I sorry for using the heritage Foundation as a source.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/demographics-us-military
Look at the share of recruits by neighborhood income level graph, the rich are almost absent but the upper middle class and middle class are overrepresented, with those earning less than 40k a year slightly underrepresented.Yeah after closer inspection the heritage Foundation document is pure trash. While the neighborhood analysis is flawed, when combined with other data it paints a picture. Military recruits are more likely to come from the southern states, more likely to have grown up in wealthier neighborhoods, and no more racially diverse than the general population. They aren't exactly ripe for communist radicalisation. That doesn't mean Americans shouldn't try, they should absolutely try to radicalise the troops and get them on their side. But at the same time Americans should not be surprised if the troops turned on them in the same way the police and DHS have, and definitely should have other plans than just radicalising the troops.
I'd argue you that they don't and can easily believe that they're doing the right thing by killing the person who they're being told wants to kill them.
You know, the whole right-wing MO, the thing that all Fascists believe.
What you likely would do if a Fascist came to kill you, kill him first.
Not only has this struggle session followed from the sub, up until this thread I feel like every time it's come up, the people making excuses for the troops seemed to be the only people talking, I thought I was going crazy
I just think there's some stuff that should remain an intra-community discussion. Americans talking to other Americans about how to turn their vets into comrades - ok, whatever, go forth, do your thing. But if chapochat is supposed to be for people from around the world, then it just becomes bizarre to watch one person say that their country is being hurt by US military policy, and then get a whole group of people trying to convince them that akshually, the soldiers carrying out said policy just want college, you have to understand... To put it crudely, there's certainly a lot of worth in discussing the material conditions of Germans in the 1930s, but you don't necessarily have to discuss them while a person from 1940s Belarus is in the room.
They're literally repeating the phrasing in the meme, zero self awareness
Funny how we don't see that sympathy for any other horrible military organisation. Excited to defend the IDF the same way: "Well you don't understand, they're conscripted, they'd go to jail if they refuse to serve, they'd have difficulty finding a good job if it came out that they didn't serve, their propaganda is so intense, most are in a supporting role anyway, how do you think Israeli leftists will fight off fascists if they're the only ones NOT trained, they're just 18 and there's intense social pressure from all their friends joining at the same time..." I'm sure I won't get branded a fash sympathiser or anything :)
Eh, prison would be pretty extreme. There are plenty of ways to be free of the military without too heavy consequences. Probably not a common example, but I was able to barracks lawyer my way into getting booted out to avoid stop-loss and a 2nd deployment, while still keeping my benefits. There are ways, and I think these ways are key to help turn some of them...
One thing you should all be aware of in discussions about "the troops": The GI Rights Hotline. From their website:
Since 1994, the GI Rights Hotline has been providing free, confidential, and accurate information on US military regulations and practices to servicemembers, veterans, potential recruits, and their families.
We are a consortium of nearly twenty non-governmental, non-profit organizations located in eleven states and in Germany. Some of our counselors are veterans, some are lawyers and some have decades of military counseling experience. We are in constant contact with each other to stay up-to-date on the latest military regulations and practices.
We provide resources and counseling options. Many of us are not lawyers and therefore cannot give legal advice, but, in cases in which an attorney might be useful, we may be able to help you find one.
Why is this important? Basically they act as expert advocates for soldiers who generally have no clue about their rights and/or navigating the military legal system. If soldiers are trying to get out, or are in trouble for something else, like failing a piss test, these people can help them break free with the least amount of damage to their record.
In addition to the GI Rights Hotline, there are some veteran's antiwar groups like About Face and Iraq Veterans Against the War who are also extremely helpful in this regard.
It is important to understand this as you are going to want soldiers on our side if things go bad.
We can work on the getting rid of their imperial mindset in the process or later. Right now we gotta survive.
I had a Maoist friend who refused self defense training because it was from a troop.
I mean, it fell through due to COVID, but Jesus, I want to know how Troops fight. Know your enemy.
I would say performative leftism needs to be nipped in the bud but at this point it's a full blown crabgrass. You're not going to find a dojo, training center, or boxing gym that isn't going to have cops, troops or general chuds. My last bjj/judo instructor was a cop and his purple belt is a marine.
Same thing with going to the firing range. People refusing to go cause chuds are there is lol worthy. Refusing vital training for potential violence and revolution to own the fash.
I have no idea. Maybe someone who reads Mao extensively can tell why.
The Soviets took American freestyle wrestling, judo and Russian folk wrestling and combined it to create an absolutely baller martial art called Sambo/Sombo. Did they care that it had an American martial art in it? No. Why are we sabotaging ourselves for woke points?
Not to mention that recruiters lie. They will tell kids, literal 17 year old children, shit like "oh, you won't see combat, most roles are support roles." That, combined with American indoctrination that what we do oversees is good, makes me a little more willing to accept troops as members of the working class.
It's really easy for leftists to get woke about shit like this instead of thinking materially.
It’s really easy for leftists to get woke about shit like this instead of thinking materially.
Or we're not American and sick and tired of American aggression in our countries
If you're not american then you have no idea how aggressively recruiters pursue impressionable and vulnerable youths. I had one I had never spoken to before literally try to get me to let him come to my house (he had my address though i did not give it to him), pick me up, and take a aptitude test simply by not immediately rejecting him. They called me constantly during my senior year of high school, at least once a week, frequently more. They lied to me blatantly and casually. Promised me everything and told me I'd never see combat. This was during a time when the military was actively preventing people from leaving when their contracts expired.
My parents and grandparents even tried hard to push me into the armed forces when I didn't go to college. When i told them i didn't want to kill people for money they countered "you probably won't be on the front lines, you're too smart for that!". All this on top of an education system which glorifies American imperialism and exceptionalism.
Even knowing then that the war in Iraq was just a smokescreen to steal oil I was still a little tempted because my prospects after high school were bad enough and my family was in a constant cycle of drug abuse and poverty.
I know it's really bad out there for you Americans, and now I'm going to be very fucking rude but I'm not going to give a shit about all that if/when they try to destabilise my country for fucks sake
If they fuck with your country, by all means, fucking fight back. All I'm suggesting is to save your hate for the architects of this system and the chuds who join to rack up brown-people bodycounts. Don't dismiss an entire class of people who, through their experiences, may have become just as disillusioned with the American government as any leftist.
Yeah I hate the architects of the system way more than some troop. I'm sorry for coming across as rude but I'm actually very surprised at the leeway troops are given here.
You have every right to be rude, no need to apologize. My country is a monstrous hellhole bent on exporting all its worst qualities by force, and I'm here asking you to have sympathy for the devil.
Fuck the troops, absolutely, but also realize that many are ripe for conversion to our cause. We need all the help we can get.
It’s really easy for leftists to get woke about shit like this instead of thinking materially.
i'm Arab. I know Iraqis who got injured and fled due to the US invasion. One was only a child when it happened, he didn't deserve to struggle with PTSD for the rest of his life. He didn't deserve all that horror. I heard all the explanations and justifications there is about why lefties should judge your made-for-exports serial killers less harshly.
They're still bullshit. Like, who lives in a rock and doesn't know the US is invading multiple countries? What are they ignorant of exactly? No, college money or poverty does not make assisting in carnage justifiable. that's not "wokeness".
the moment you set foot on foreign land with an invading army you lose your right to life and there's no taking that action back.
It is wokeness, if you lived in the same shoes as any of these dipshits who join the military, you would make the same fucking choice. You're not inherently better than these people, you would of absolutely made the same decisions and you're walking a very similar line as the fucking fascists by thinking this way. Also by themselves, a bunch of crybaby, vegan leftists who never held a gun or had anything resembling military training aren't going to be able to do much to a bunch of fascists who eat, sleep, shit military and killing people. You dig your own fucking grave.
I could've joined ISIS at some point for the money too. i've seen how their propaganda paints it. hell one of my teachers strongly suspected i would but i see i'm not a fucking monster. it's insanely obvious invading others and killing are bad.
aren’t going to be able to do much to a bunch of fascists who eat, sleep, shit military and killing people.
You overestimate the "military training" of fascists. They're dangerous but are no state military. Also you can train to use guns and guerilla tactics without having to join the damn US military.
The US doesn't paint it as invading, the fact that we've been in Iraq and Afghanistan for 20 years wasn't imperialism or invasion, they just simply can't leave the country in the state it is in! And we don't kill with impunity, we only kill terrorists. Also, you kill people who are going to kill you, and that's what we're told over here. Terrorists want to kill us.
I could’ve joined ISIS at some point for the money too.
Does ISIS let women or trans people join ISIS in any meaningful combat role?
The US doesn’t paint it as invading
neither does ISIS. hell ISIS has a better argument for being there in the first place.
Does ISIS let women or trans people join ISIS in any meaningful combat role?
i'm not sure how "meaningful" but there was a women-only police force and several terrorist attacks and shootings were done by women. but even if one isn't combat inclined partaking in propaganda and recruitment alone is dangerous.
What about people who just work in the military supply chain and stuff? I almost signed up because I figured if I don't do the job then someone else will, and that someone else might have plans to progress up the military ranks.
Also, what about the kids who are blatantly indoctrinated?
Here's a massive difference between being a cop and being a troop:
Want to quit your job as a cop because it's not what you thought it would be? Cool. Give your notice and quit.
Want to quit the Army because it's not what you thought it would be? Tough titties, finish out your 6 years, either working for the Army or sitting in a prison.
I'm not saying that the troops are good, or that most aren't bad, but it's an entirely different thing from being a cop.
no you're right, looking at the data the middle and upper class enlist the most, huh. I still hate working at walmart though
I'm just tired of equally privileged white middle class lefties, blowing off a sizable amount of poor people or middle class people who did join to escape poverty or downward movement for idiotic idealistic purity reasons- rather than showing nuance and understanding for complex problems, which should be something attributable to the left.
And it's not like poor people don't try to join the military, it's not like poor people are like "Oh hell yeah solidarity fight the power brother, i care about brown people in other countries" they just usually have something like a record that keeps them from joining the military, an injury, maybe they're overweight from poor American 50c Ruffles bags for breakfast diet or flat out-- they're scared of getting hurt/dying/leaving family. There are so many reasons that are not *what lefties want them to be * or why poor people don't join the military.
The reason why "they were propagandized," usually gets brought up is because Lefties like to paint with broad strokes and condemn all vets, even though there are leftists vets and potentially sympathetic leftist vets. You're already creating problems for yourself and potential movement you're interested in by trying to keep these people out with moronic privileged purity politics.
And even if they are middle class, white, you can still be propagandized by US propaganda, you can grow up in a right-wing household and you can also come to see see why it's wrong. When these people join, "murdering brown people" is exaggeration and leftist propaganda. I know you can't imagine that but you've been privileged enough to not have right-winger family or the option to see a different political perspective. Why the fuck do you think there are so many liberals in this country, but not leftists, when being left is the logical conclusion to being a liberal? I just find it hard to believe, that if you lived the same life of these people who join the military, you would make any different choices.
There's nothing special about you personally that makes you a leftist. You are not inherently a better person. You have different lived experiences. That's the big tragedy of Nazism in Germany and Fascism.
But it happens enough that when these people go overseas feeling already milquetoast about the military, they often see what the military does overseas and their views change drastically. Lefties do the rights job by playing the stupid purity game.
If an armed conflict ever arrived in the US, I'm guessing the right wingers who aren't gun shy, that supposedly take pride in eating shit, being dirty and don't see problems joining the military are going to be plenty more useful than the plethora of diet restricted, colorful haired, brainy bookworm, gamer redditor leftists.
I’m just tired of equally privileged white middle class lefties,
Or we're not American and want the US to stop being aggressive towards our countries. Seriously why is so much leeway given to the direct enforcers of US imperialism here, I just don't understand it, at all. Literally everything you said in your posts applies to cops, yet ACAB is common here. This whole argument makes me feel my life is less valuable than an Americans and it's seriously starting to piss me the fuck off.
restricted, colorful haired, brainy bookworm, gamer redditor leftists.
Nice strawman, refering to comrades from the global south like this. Very cool and normal.
People are disagreeing with you because your criticism is so un-nuanced, inconsistent with materialism and most importantly, self-harming. Even the discussion of ACAB has nuance, ie. you may be a good person yourself but if you support bad systems, you're a bad person. This is not the kind of discussion that happens in these spaces and is regularly pushed back. Which is why we're having this conversation now.
The difference with the military and the cops is that people are either trying to leave the military or are already out and lefties want to harangue them for making a mistake rather than acknowledge an ally. That same situation just simply doesn't exist for the police (atleast in the US) on any meaningful scale. It's unfortunately more difficult to become a Police than a Soldier in the US. But even then, there's nuance to the discussion.
Your life obviously isn't worth less than an Americans, but overall you're only making your situation worse by not choosing to use a critical lense. And of course, you're safe here, we agree with you, imperialism is bad. No one is fundamentally disagreeing with you here. But you need to be backed up when you start saying dumb shit. You wouldn't of made a different decisions if you were born another person and later became a soldier, there's nothing inherently special about you that made you a leftie. Some of you guys genuinely believe that you are just good people and the decision was obvious, when that's not true and fundamentally not materialism.
Nice strawman, refering to comrades from the global south like this. Very cool and normal.
But stuff like this is my point, I didn't even know you weren't American and you want to act irrationally like this rather than simply accept a misunderstanding. It reeks of melodramatic lefty posting.
Oviously if a troop wants to leave the military that's good and they should be supported as long as they acknowledge the mistakes made, no problems there. Also you don't know me personally at all, how can you even say what decisions I would make. That's just a hypothetical with no value to what is being discussed here. How is my critique inconsistent with materialistic thought, most of the US military is made up of middle upper class chuds whose class interests align with those in power more often than not. While there are people that join the military for economic reasons, they are no where near the majority according to almost all studies done on the makeup of the US military. While someone that joins the military may be a good person outside of the military itself, they are still directly enabling US imperialism and are thus bad until they leave. I'm being rude and melodramatic because I have to live in the ruins of an ex apartheid state supported by the US government (they even covered up the nuclear tests, research the Vela incident, support in the Angola border wars, etc) that faces constant capitalist aggression (we just took another IMF loan ffs) and tons of people here want to go out of their way to defend US troops that engage in this around the globe. I never see the same discussion around cops here, and I'm going to guess it's because the website is America centric and have had bad experiences with cops personally so they don't go out of their way to point out every single nuance in the police force. Yet with the troops half the website wants to discuss every single little nuance and potential factor. I'm just surprised be the leeway troops get on here when compared to other groups.
I'm seeing myself out, because we don't agree on a fundamental issue. Either way, solidarity, fuck US imperialism.
If you were born someone else- you had a different family, different friends, in a different country, a different environment- you would be a different person. With your beliefs, I can deduce that all American gang members are bad people because they commit crime and kill people. But obviously and extremely commonly championed in these spaces, that is dumb. We can separate the negative actions from the material conditions, we can provide nuance and we can understand why GENERALLY people would make a decision to join a gang.
"Yeah I signed up for a 2nd tour since there were no good job opportunities in my state, and you got a $20.000 signing bonus."
I mean the flight crew of a B1 are not enlisted men straight out of high school.
Oviously, it's a meme trying to make a point by using exaggeration
Oviously try radicalise the troops but please have another plan in place as well as there's a large chance the military won't be on your side in the US
All I can say is I wish you the best for the future and full support from me. I know I've come across as a bit rude here sometimes but when you have to live in the aftermath of an apartheid state supported by the US government it hits different
I think this perspective is more of a dialectical analysis. If you propagandize about a job and make it not seem as immoral as it is, and keep poor people from having other options, then inevitably a lot of brainwashed poor people are going to sign up. That's just how it's gonna be. ISIS arose because of local instability that we caused, that doesn't justify their actions, but it does explain how it happened. If you want to lower military recruitment, giving people better alternatives helps immensely. Areas with high minimum wage in this country is exactly where recruiters have a hard time.
