On one hand, I do think torture is wrong
But on the other hand, this just feels like more confirmation of Ukraine/US involvement that they're so outraged about it.
The first thing that happened after 9/11 was that a bunch of American men beat a Sihk to death over a thousand miles away in the man’s own gas station because he had a turban. Hate crimes against Sikhs and Muslims skyrocketed and didn’t die down to pre-9/11 levels till 2009.
All projection.
After the Oct 7 raids by Hammas into Israeli occupied territories, a landlord in the USA went into the home of some renters who were Palestinian and started shooting, wounding a mother and killing her child.
I remember reading some articles talking to the family and relatives and it stuck out to me that the general opinion was that the landlord and the family he shot up were friendly towards each other.
He had helped them built a treehouse a couple years earlier, IIRC. I suspect his brain got rotted out by conservative news and conspiracy and Al Aqsa Flood broke it in half.
Lead poisoning, PFAS exposure, asbestos exposure, and other horrific chemicals have set humanity back decades if not over a century at this point, and have fully rotted the minds of the older generations. A lot of the bizarre manifestations of dementia, paranoia, mental illness, aggression, and strange behavior are hallmark signs of lead exposure and the subsequent neural decay.
That and the Western media machine. That has also turned many people into rabid violent removed.
If rumours that the perpetrators are tajik turn out true, I expect a spike in hate crimes as well
They already confessed in court, all four are Tajik. And yeah, not great for central Asian nations.
Another reason torture is bad, period: a confession is a lot less believable when you cut a guy's ear off beforehand
I don’t know if you watch Russian news, but I’ll tune into PT or Первый канал sometimes and there is a bizarre and disgusting trend of being horrifically racist to black people and Muslims. They are legitimately described and referred to as subhuman and in extremely derogatory ways. It worsened EXTREMELY after George Floyd.
If that is anything to go off of, I expect hate crimes to increase and the media to support it or brush it under the rug.
Jesus Christ Russia has fallen since the Union days.
I don’t know if you watch Russian news, but I’ll tune into PT or Первый канал
Nope. Don't really watch TV at all, and specifically avoid these (and other similar) channels in their many forms. They manage to make any topic into an ear-bleeding experience.
there is a bizarre and disgusting trend of being horrifically racist to black people and Muslim
Trust me, I know. Don't go to popular places like pikabu, and especially to the comment sections. Heck, comments are filled with racist reactionary crap even at communist media (such as blogs of Constantin Syomin). There's usually plenty of anti-semitism too, for "good" measure.
Russia has fallen since the Union days.
Yup. The more one learns about the depth of this fall, the more heartbreaking it gets. It is a veritable pit of tartarus. And the worst part is, people don't seem to understand it. Many think it's always been like this. Many, many blame USSR outright for the current state of affairs. Some think it's actually better now and will only get better, either because muh putin, or because "sovoks will dies out and New People (read: businessmen) will take over and lead us to bright liberal capitalist future".
Shit ain't fun, comrade.
If we reminded this guy about torture at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, he would doubtless intone "whataboutism," but would he ever argue that the United States is a terrorist entity?
If anyone has any information about it being "publicly broadcast," send it my way. I can't find anything about it.
it's literally all over Russian (right wing/war adjacent) telegram. Westoids learn to use social media and Google translate challenge https://t.me/dvachannel/134698
They wouldn't be saying this if it was their country that was just attacked. Some of us here are old enough to remember what kind of collective psychopathic blood rage the US went into after 9/11.
Yeah, people are surprised by the US backing Israel's actions, but forget how genocidal the US is on the regular.
I mean, we don't even have to go into hypotheticals. They were loving the videos from the scene earlier.
Some of us here are old enough to remember what kind of collective psychopathic blood rage the US went into after 9/11
And you better believe this is dragging Nord-Ost and Beslan to the surface of collective subconscious in Russia.
Honestly, in situations like these I can't care too much about torture. But I highly doubt Russia publicly broadcast anything like this.
Either way the least "civilized," most monstrous, exploitative, bigoted, arrogant nations and states IMO are that of the west, and the Anglosphere in particular. Some NAFO troll knows nothing about civilization, or humanity, rather they're a perfect example of everything one shouldn't be.
Those outraged crackers are the very same people who pushed Taiwanese BDSM club video as proof of Uyghur genocide.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure that was just Jordan Peterson on a benzo binge.
Yeah he started it, but i seen that on lemmy world news and in few reddit excursions few times, meaning that in dedicated "China bad" spaces there had to be a lot of it floating around.
That is shocking. Maybe it shouldn't be.
Have any links or images of them?
Don't forget that it's pretty much universally agreed that terrorists who target civillians are at the bottom of the totem pole as far human rights violations go.
Does that mean that Pax Americana and Israel are the most sub-human since they justify terrorism against community of people of color under the pretense that they are murdering terrorist suspect within a crowd of civilian in their anti-terrorist operations? The US did conduct the 1989 Tiananmen Square false flag terrorism, deny false flag terrorism when actual evidences expose the real culprit, and murder a group of peaceful protester in cold war America for demanding meritocracy and accountability.
I especially love Israelis who are acting outraged. Motherfucker, it's legal in your country to torture terrorists, give it a rest.
Gonna be honest, I'm pretty disappointed by some of the comments some comrades are making excusing torture right now.
Condemning reactionaries for only selectively being outraged by torture and then going on to say that torture is alright in this case is pretty jarring.
"God, torture is so cool. I love it. It's the best. I am rock fucking hard right now thinking about terrorists getting tortured."
- this thread's comments
Yeah it's fucking gross, seeing people with hexbear and .ml usernames posting comments on the level of American patriots post 9/11
Oh no, you're actually a hypocrite if you say it's fucked up now because there were American patriots post 9/11 who supported torture.
It's so easy to say "I support this country's actions here, where they are defensible, but not here, where they are obviously bad." And we're fucking it up!
What do people think critical support means?
The vast majority of comments in this thread are about how this is a common opinion in this thread and how that opinion is bad. Did comments get deleted???
the meta of posting this thread to shitreactionariessay 😵💫
My comment isn't about the post itself. My comment is about the comments section, where many comrades, some of whom whose opinion I held in regard, are making excuses for, or in a few cases outright supporting, torture.
These aren't even the emotional one off rant/rage comments type of thing either, where it can be excused as simply being angry. People are getting pretty defensive and trying pretty damn hard.
Obviously, I don't condone torture either.
But to all the libs getting "outraged" by this: I remember when you were vociferously defending waterboarding and other "expedited interrogation methods." So shut up, fuck off, and go Abu Ghraib yourself.
As always, there are no actions that the western left can take to oppose what's wrong with the Russian state that wouldn't help advance the cause of imperialists.
This is actually true. The problems Russia has today are for the Russian people to solve. Any criticism we westerners make is bound to swell the tide of anti-Russian propaganda. Plus, after the 90s we have absolutely no moral high ground.
I've seen libs literally defend their hypocrisy by saying 'Yea, but that wasn't on US soil' as if it's some kind of huge gotchya.
torture bad of course, but some guys getting roughed up after getting caught doing mass murder of civilians is at least understandable
imagine if they made a whole international torture industry pipeline, with hundreds of people getting kidnapped on spurious charges and moved around blacksite torture prisons and being tortured with methods designed to generate false confessions
They were repeatedly shoving guys own severed ear into his mouth, trying to make him eat it. That's not "roughing up after catching", that's proper torture.
The proper response to a state torturing a suspect is not "I'm sure he deserved it"
There is no excuse for a state torturing anyone, so there is no room for "he deserved it" in this conversation. It should be the easiest thing in the world to look at Russians torturing this guy and say that's wrong. This is the difference between critical support and unconditional support.
You are also assuming he is guilty based on what, news reports in the immediate aftermath? That we all know are just press releases straight from the cops? You can't look at stuff like mundane drug arrests in the U.S. and be hypersuspicious of every allegation then uncritically accept the first story the cops put out on a high-profile terrorist attack.
You're the one going to bat for torture here. Torture that is inexcusable no matter what these guys did.
But I'm sure you've done a deep, sober dive into the evidence and are not simply repeating (other) things the cops told you. I'm sure we have the full story about what exactly happened and who exactly was involved 48 hours after the fact.
What does it fucking matter if he's guilty, it's not the police's job or the state's job to enact revenge.
Either put him on trial or put a bullet in his head. Torture achieves nothing, it's just petty revenge.
It's not, but too many of the responses in this thread verge dangerously close to "all states bad," "all cops are bastards," "be a fucking decent human being," and other nuance-less liberal platitudes. If I wanted that sort of thing I could go over to r/tankiejerk or some other anarchist-infested hellhole.
"all cops are bastards,"
liberal platitudes
I want to live in the reality where libs are saying ACAB
nuance-less liberal platitudes
Torture isn't a very nuanced subject. There just aren't any excuses for it, especially not here, where it's purely retributive and the act in question is clearly torture.
I'm not sure what any of the things you wrote have to do with my comment, maybe you replied to a wrong comment.
The US already create the torture institutions with the Indian Residential fake School death camps from 1850s to 1998 that later became the Nazi death camps. The Pax Americana justice system also use coerced confession as absolute prove of guilt under the excuse that a person will never confess to crimes that they did not commit regardless of the circumstances or level coercion. It is suspicious that Pax Americana condemn the very coercion that they readily practiced daily.
The Pax Americana justice system also use coerced confession as absolute prove of guilt under the excuse that a person will never confess to crimes that they did not commit regardless of the circumstances or level coercion.
You're right about plenty, but not here. If you cut a guy's ear off and he confesses afterwards you're actually going to have a hell of a time getting that confession admitted in court. You very likely won't even get in a confession if a person was not read their Miranda rights.
not forget that a chilean journalist was tortured and died on an ukranian prison.
Gonzalo Lira was also American, not like they care though, that granted him no special favors, they'll say American traitors deserve it etc. Westerners are only "special" if they also on the "correct" side.
Reminder: the Israeli state is doing all this and worse behind closed doors to innocent people. Big CW for descriptions of torture and SA behind this link
Torture is an inexcusable evil, but the the Great Satan and its vassals still hold the overwhelming monopoly on it. Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, etc.
Fuck Russia, but if you only care now they're doing it, rethink your priorities.
Fuck torture, fuck Russia, we do not have to like torture to point out the blatant hypocrisy of all of the libs who supported the War on Terror and are only handwringing about it now, just like we don't have to like the government currently occupying the USSR's corpse to be in favor of them opposing the United States.
I am guessing crickets about the treatment of women and children in and around al-shifa hospital by the IOF?
The fact that you can find the videos at all is being "publicy broadcast" I guess
Folx, I don't think "critical support" includes defending torture
Here's another weird response.
Show
Do they even know what side they're on anymore?
Yeah, fuckers filmed all the thing on their phones with their faces of half of the frames, but they're innocent victims of Putin's evil regime, trust me
Yeah, I love how they're desperately clinging to them being technically suspects. And never mind ukros - it's a given with them - but I love that our relocated libruls are doing it. Just nailing that coffin by dehumanizing themselves.
As if they weren't caught in hot enough pursuit to exclude mistakes and swiftly identified using videos from the crime scene. I mean, was it another car full people that look and are dressed like those terrorists and have weapons for some reason?
As if they weren't caught in hot enough pursuit to exclude mistakes and swiftly identified using videos from the crime scene.
Where are you getting this? The cops, or the media reprinting a police press release?
What are you linking to here? I'm not going to watch a snuff film in the middle of the day.
Get the fuck out of here -- I asked if it was a snuff film. Are you sending people snuff films and not even telling them what they are?
More directly, I asked where you obtained your evidence. Are you just taking the police at their word? How do you know what you have is reliable and authentic?
Meanwhile the US does similar shit in gitmo to innocent people. And they probably just do it for fun.
