I'm trying to empathise with them... I get why people become radicals of other kinds... but saying no music, no sex, live by the book, behead those who disagree... what part of that makes people think "I want to get into this, this sounds fun"?

The Arab world has valid grievances, which motivated 9-11 for example, but there's more to it than that.

  • Bluegrass_Buddhist [none/use name]
    hexbear
    32
    edit-2
    3 months ago

    When European, at first Christian and then secular colonial powers run rampant over your culture and people for 100+ years, and demonize your local majority religion as barbaric for almost as long, practicing that religion becomes an act of anti-colonial resistance in and of itself. A way of rejecting outsiders' attempts to define "correct" beliefs and morality on their own terms.

    Then there's also the element of practicality. At least in Palestine and Lebanon, a lot of the secular leftist anti-colonial movements have been hollowed out, smothered and/or discredited over the past several decades, leaving more religious groups like Hamas and Hezb Allah as really the only resistance-capable game in town.

    Also also, there's a social element to it. Class differences can sometimes feel abstract, and religion, like race or narionality, offers a way to cut through that abstraction. A clear way of differentiating colonized in-group from colonizer out-group.

  • chickentendrils [any, comrade/them]
    hexbear
    18
    3 months ago

    Step 1 is usually the West fucking a place up, while justifying it with Western moral sensibilities (cynically, they don't actually care and are there to steal resources/get cheap labor, eg British politicians/generals opposing eg women's suffrage at home while banning hijabs etc)

    Violent resistance to that or Western intelligence financing radicals often follows (either organic because of the scale of the violence, or occupiers purposefully seeking to prolong the security crisis/justify further "investment" of military resources).

  • Dolores [love/loves]
    hexbear
    18
    3 months ago

    this is like asking why people get into religion generally, the flavor of religion seems to be fairly irrelevant for it becoming a murder-justification. i won't speculate or pontificate on 'why religion' because i'm irreligious

    materially, Wahhabists are successful in radicalizing people because their preachers & groups are backed by Saudi Arabia & the CIA, but it's not like they invented the concept of murder + martyrdom

  • RNAi [he/him]
    hexbear
    16
    3 months ago

    Why the fuck were there so many euro teens falling for fukcing ISIS groomers in the 2010's?

    • Tabitha ☢️[she/her]
      hexbear
      9
      3 months ago

      IDK if there's really a lot, but many "bad things" are possible now because the internet let's you search for free candy vans in your area or whatever type of predator you're looking for to twilight yourself with.

    • Hurvitz [they/them]
      hexbear
      8
      3 months ago

      there were? If it was the US I'd say FBI entrapment but idk about EU

      • RNAi [he/him]
        hexbear
        10
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        yeah I remember at least 5 different cases of Germany teens escaping their homes and ending up as ISIS fighters/wives

        https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/12/middleeast/german-isis-wife-grm-intl/index.html

        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
          hexbear
          11
          3 months ago

          I don't know if that's a lot; in a country of ~80 million you'll always have a handful of people doing the weirdest shit imaginable.

    • JohnBrownNote [comrade/them, des/pair]
      hexbear
      6
      3 months ago

      been a while since i read about those kids, but wasn't it a combination of the usual teenage angst, the extra ostracization of eu-cool being shit to muslim immigrants, and romanticizing of the most extra version of their religion?

      • RNAi [he/him]
        hexbear
        6
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        It's still fucking stupid from a mile far

        Like, if they were just doing terrorism in euro countries in payback for mega-terrorism and colonization, OK, kinda understandable. But further destabilizing under-western-attack countries while doing civilian massacres, where the fuck do you square the liberation there? Or destroying/looting cool archaelogical shit from pre-Islam millenias?

        • RyanGosling [none/use name]
          hexbear
          6
          3 months ago

          You know how western teenagers have obscure esoteric fascist ideologies that was invented by some guy in the 1950s or a blogger in 2008? Islamic terrorism is basically that put into practice. Some of the sects deviate so far that they become “enlightened” and think everyone must die for a better world. Pol Pot but in a desert

        • JohnBrownNote [comrade/them, des/pair]
          hexbear
          4
          3 months ago

          yeah idk. there are women into that tradwife shit too and those reactionary christians are only separated from terrorism or destroying "pagan" artifacts by the frequency of deeds.

        • Hello_Kitty_enjoyer [none/use name]
          hexbear
          3
          edit-2
          3 months ago

          Like, if they were just doing terrorism in euro countries in payback for mega-terrorism and colonization, OK, kinda understandable.

          Nobody does this. Attacking your "oppressors" out of a desire for payback is an almost non-existent phenomenon. I know it makes sense to the people here but IRLs have different minds

          Almost every act of terroristic violence is powered by delusion, not some kind of rational revenge

    • RyanGosling [none/use name]
      hexbear
      2
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      I imagine the proximity of the Arab world to Europe had something to do with it. It’s much easier to talk about your “adventures” and mentorship abilities when you can travel back and forth and get the reputation for being “real.”

      And just like most gangs in the world, it’s usually formed of initially oppressed diaspora - migrants and immigrants - to form community and protection but without any recognition of class warfare, you’re prone to just criminal behavior regardless of what the purported beliefs and code of conduct are.

      Europe is also one of the US’ closest allies and has the most direct history with the Islamic world compared to the US.

      So location + proxy enemy + real enemy + class

  • somename [she/her]
    hexbear
    16
    3 months ago

    Blowback season 4 has great coverage on how the US propped up far right Islamic movements, leading to the Taliban among other groups. These movements aren’t often organic in origin. People aren’t naturally predisposed toward this path. So much of it has been directed and supported by foreign powers for their ambitions.

  • impartial_fanboy [he/him]
    hexbear
    14
    3 months ago

    I'd recommend the book Engineers of Jihad. It's precisely the people who wish to change the world and then are denied by external forces (largely the U.S. in this case) that are primed for radicalization.

    Also iirc, Bashar al-Assad's father was the one who actually developed the tactic/justification but I'm having trouble finding a source, it's early.

    • DragonBallZinn [he/him]
      hexbear
      12
      3 months ago

      "they find that a disproportionate share of Islamist radicals come from an engineering background, and that Islamist and right-wing extremism have more in common than either does with left-wing extremism, in which engineers are absent while social scientists and humanities students are prominent."

      Sure, we get told that we don't understand muh basic economics, but we sure as hell better understand economics than fascists.

      • SpiderFarmer [he/him]
        hexbear
        8
        3 months ago

        Given the engineers I've known, that feels harsh on Fundamentalists as a whole.

        • DragonBallZinn [he/him]
          hexbear
          3
          3 months ago

          I never would have expected CHUDs to be pulled to engineering TBH. Maybe coding, but not the rest of the engineering discipline.

          That being said, I'm pretty sure the CHUDs in civil engineering are more rare.

          • Xx_Aru_xX [she/her]
            hexbear
            4
            3 months ago

            That being said, I'm pretty sure the CHUDs in civil engineering are more rare.

            Don't google what degree Oussama Bin Laden has

          • D61 [any]
            hexbear
            1
            3 months ago

            Makes sense to me, engineering gets your blue collar salt of the earth types to turn a wrench and the white collar middle/upper management types who want to write out instructions that other people get dirty actually doing.

          • NoYouLogOff [he/him]
            hexbear
            1
            edit-2
            3 months ago

            This is purely an American perspective, but I failed out of an engineering university, it was a graduate-to-Boeing pipeline.

    • Vampire [any]
      hexagon
      hexbear
      4
      3 months ago

      thanks for the recommendation

      Hafez al-Assad pioneered suicide-bombings iirc

  • oregoncom [he/him]
    hexbear
    11
    3 months ago

    no sex, live by the book (Das Kapital), behead guillotine those who disagree

    Checkmate Tankies

  • @SSJ2Marx
    hexbear
    10
    edit-2
    3 months ago

    One big reason is that the Saudis fund it. They're not the only ones - a plurality of the weapons that have flowed into the middle east have specifically gone to the most radical religious extremists because those groups tend to also attack socialists, arab nationalists, African unity types, and others that oppose the global economic order.

  • Hello_Kitty_enjoyer [none/use name]
    hexbear
    10
    3 months ago

    I get why people become radicals of other kinds...

    So you can understand Hindutva radicals, nazi radicals, Tamil tigers, but not Islamic fundamentalism?

    Seems like a very weird non sequitir

    • Xx_Aru_xX [she/her]
      hexbear
      7
      3 months ago

      Islamophobia is so hard coded into people's minds they don't realize when they're being that, also how is Yahia from Iraq joining ISIS to "liberate" the Middle East from U.S. imperialism and to establish a "Khilafa" and give freedom to "Muslims" to practice any different to Corey from Iowa joining the U.S. army to "liberate" Middle-Easterners from dictatorships and to establish "democracy" and to give "freedom" to women.

      • Hello_Kitty_enjoyer [none/use name]
        hexbear
        5
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        Islamophobia is so hard coded into people's minds they don't realize when they're being that

        oh yea I know. Also when OP said "I get why people become radicals of other kinds" I'm 99% sure they were only talking about white radicals, which is why I included Hindutva

        your examples are different only in the sense that Jimbob from Paris, Iowa is getting paid 20x more than Yahia

        • Xx_Aru_xX [she/her]
          hexbear
          5
          3 months ago

          your examples are different only in the sense that Jimbob from Paris, Iowa is getting paid 20x more than Yahia

          "I'm sorry Iraqi kids, but I really want that new Ford Ranger, you won't understand my struggle"

        • D61 [any]
          hexbear
          3
          3 months ago

          Unless Corey is gay, or doesn't align with a worldview of a Binary Gender, or wants to do coke and heroin openly on the weekends, or wants to listen to non-white rap, etc ,etc.

      • RyanGosling [none/use name]
        hexbear
        9
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        Broke, no support circles, mentally ill, lonely, reactionary environment, sense of superiority, poor education, already a reactionary. Other times it’s just the game you gotta play to be part of a community

  • Xx_Aru_xX [she/her]
    hexbear
    9
    3 months ago

    Depends on the region, but mostly it's a combination of imperialism and Saudi funded madrassas, one gives you reactionary ideas and the other makes you believe the ideas are true, also it's used a tool for western imperialism directly or indirectly. For example when you look at ISIS, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi was in Abu Gharib at some point, and a lot of the ISIS recruits were from poor parts of the world that had a lot of Saudi "schools" built in them, with the recent attack in Moscow the guys were Tajiks which was formerly a USSR state.

    but saying no music, no sex, live by the book, behead those who disagree... what part of that makes people think "I want to get into this, this sounds fun"?

    The promise that they'll be rewarded for their efforts in the end goal of a khilafa or in the afterlife... and who told you they don't have sex? you think they kidnap women just to play minecraft with them or something?

  • Mardoniush [she/her]
    hexbear
    4
    edit-2
    3 months ago

    Others have given good reasons, but many people join very strict religious orders in other religions. And some of those have been very militant.

    It's easy to get people to hate The West, and their own governments, and the increasing alienation of their lives as capitalism elides all cultural social bonds. That's the same thing that leads to what Marx called "reactionary socialism", the urge to retvrn to a rural ideal that is no longer materially possible.

    It's also easy to get people to accept an ascetic religious life. Regular rituals, fellowship of others and discussion, a simple life, without the distractions and mistakes and disappointments of real life. Its just the more systemised version of the urge to go live in a yurt in Mongolia after a bad breakup or when you've fucked up particularly hard.

    Combine them. Have the material fire of reactionary/agrarian social tendencies, and feed it with the superstructure of monastic mysticism, but without the disengagement with the world. And you have a radical.

    All the book burning and misogyny is (mostly) either bolt-ons or hold outs of the collapsed reactionary ideology

  • JustSo [she/her, any]
    hexbear
    3
    3 months ago

    I get why people become radicals of other kinds... but saying no music, no sex, live by the book, behead those who disagree... what part of that makes people think "I want to get into this, this sounds fun"?

    I don't think many true radicals do it because it "sounds fun" perhaps you're confusing your ability to empathise with non-muslim radicals with actually understanding them?

  • Gorillatactics [none/use name]
    hexbear
    2
    3 months ago

    There's a book, engineers of Jihad, that noticed that engineers are statistically more likely to join islamic terrorists orgs than other people.

    • Vampire [any]
      hexagon
      hexbear
      1
      3 months ago

      That could be a reverse-causation: people with jihadist ambitions go and study engineering.