I dunno man. China is pretty Fascist. I worry about them. I would prefer incrementalism and no collapse. Even if that means I don't get to experience Communism in my lifetime.
They are an authoratarian Socialist state right now. Have you heard their new National Anthem? It has the Fascist mantra of we were once great and we can be great again. It seems obvious to me that they are a Proto-Fascist State.
China was subjugated by the great western powers for over a century, through no fault of their own: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation. The Germans started and lost a war and were humiliated for about 15 years before the Nazis showed up. The twentieth century in China is mostly defined by the struggle for national liberation.
The beginning of the end of Chinese humiliation was the Xinhai revolution in 1911. The CPC and KMT were both children of this national bourgeois revolution against the Qing and both wanted to reverse this humiliation and return China to its rightful role as an independent and important state. The difference between the two visions of China held by the successors of Sun Yat-Sen lead to a civil war in which the communist vision ultimately prevailed. The state-buliding project started by Sun Yat-Sen was continued by the CPC, and has been fruitful despite numerous setbacks and mistakes. While there are good criticisms of the CPC's actions they have ultimately resulted in a great increase in the standard of living for the Chinese people. The Chinese people recognize that whatever its faults, shortcomings and excesses the CPC has helped return their country to its rightful place in the world and created a more prosperous and stable society.
It has the Fascist mantra of we were once great and we can be great again.
Except in China's case it wasn't some imagined national decline it was hell on earth. Civil wars and famines killing millions, infrastructure collapsing, seemingly half the population addicted to opium, and the country divided between warlords and foreign invaders.
A single line in a national anthem is hardly reason to call the entire country fascist. I really don't see how they can be "authoritarian" when its citizens have one of the highest perceptions of its democracy of any country. Take a look at this study. This is a western study by a German polling firm. 73% of Chinese citizens consider their country a democracy. That's 20-30% higher than most Western countries, excluding Scandinavian ones. Everything in that poll affirms that China is one of the most democratic countries in the world. Certainly more than the US, where the president literally got 3 million less votes than his opponent and mass voter suppression is the norm.
Globally, China replacing the US is great for democracy, as well: the US's foreign policy consists mostly of coups and regime changes. When those don't work, you get an Iraq War. China, on the other hand, doesn't coup or overthrow multiple foreign governments every year.
There have been multiple threads and comments in this lemmy, as well as other communist subs that have gone in-depth into the first two, as they are most emphasised by the media, so I'll give the "brief" overview of their refutations.
The situation in Xinjiang is an issue of counter-terrorism. That is not to say that all Uyghurs are terrorists, rather that, due to Xinjiang's proximity to US-destabilised regions, there has been a higher chance of extremist ideology in the area, which has affected some Uyghurs. The evidence of this are reports (that surfaced before the camp allegations arose) of Uyghur militias being trained in Syria, and multiple attacks that include stabbings, car rammings, etc, with casualties in the hundreds. So the response of the government is to open camps, or vocational schools, to provide work training for those who may have been influenced by extremist thought. Note that this is not a blanket repression of Uyghurs or their culture. Evidence of this is abundant. It's just not reported on. Please note that this is not a blanket repression of Muslims either - China has other Muslim minorities, like the Hui, that are completely fine, and if i remember correctly, China have more mosques per capita than the US.
A sidenote that I also find interesting that is usually looked over: Xinjiang contains 20% of China's fossil fuel reserves, has the capacity to produce 10% of China's renewable energy, and serves as an essential gateway to the BRI, a project that has the potential to shift global trade and power dynamics further to Asia. I wonder why the US and the media is so interested in Xinjiang?
With regard to Hong Kong, those colonial apologists got off easy. What happened with Hong Kong was essentially an attempted colour revolution, funded by US money. You really cannot say that China is a proto-fascist state, by 1) trying to have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, which is technically Chinese territory, and already has such extradition treaties with the likes of the US and the UK, and 2) trying to, y'know, not have a successful separatist movement in a key financial hub, and 3) not actually being responsible for the deaths of anyone in Hong Kong, despite the riots going for over a year. With regard to the national security law, it literally is a law that prohibits sedition or rebellion, a law that exists everywhere else in the world. The max sentence for breaking this law is life imprisonment. As opposed to the benevolent US or Japan, where it is the death penalty. More can be said, so I defer to the other megathreads and source compilations.
The Great Firewall is actually pretty good, ngl. Ideally ofc, censorship shouldn't occur at all, but given China's main geopolitical and ideological rival has a virtual monopoly on information, I understand why it exists. It helps filter out the bullshit propaganda that we get fed here in the West, and helps develop Chinese internet services, like Weibo, to rival US ones, like Facebook. Additionally, you can bypass it pretty easily. Just get a VPN. Chinese citizens know this, and those who are bothered enough, mainly the younger generations, will get one. I have heard that the analogy that the crime of using a VPN to bypass the Firewall is like the crime of jaywalking - pretty much accepted.
This was an excellent read, thank you so much for putting this together. I've been looking for a good summary to show people of why what we're told about china is wrong.
I love this narrative, the US has been torturing Uyghur muslims from Afghanistan which is neighbouring Xinjiang (and muslims from many other countries) for ages now, but all of a sudden the US loves muslims, and is very concerned about their safety. Also Hong Kong was an obvious US funded color revolution, crawling with CIA assets, US senators advising protestors and had the sole goal of getting the US congress to vote for placing sanctions on Hong Kong. The new security law is an inevitable result of the trump administration overplaying it's hand.
A perspective from an american living in china, deals with a lot of the propaganda, and especially Hong Kong's security law:
That's a cop out. We live in the imperial core, in countries with the most propagandised people in the world, a news media that is completely beholden to western security apparatus, use your critical thinking skill to investigate why western narratives have turned incredibly anti china as the US empire collapses and western capital loses its ability to wage war and coup any country they want.
Right but the point is that "talking about China" from the perspective of the imperial core lends you facts given to you by empire. How can you "talk about China" when you've already been spoonfed a bunch of nonsense about HK, etc?
I had a really long response typed out, but this website glitched and scrolled up to the top and deleted my whole comment. Basically, I don't think that particular study is relevant to this. That study only shows that their Citizens feel like they have a choice.
Something like 86% of US police say that US Law Enforcement is racist. Does that mean it's not racist?
As to that comparison, it's so outrageous I'm not even sure what to say. How do cops saying cops are good refute the experience of Chinese citizens? If your claim is they are authoritarian fascists, it seems like the belief among Chinese citizens that they live in a fair democracy is extremely relevant.
I'm pretty neutral toward China, but I'll say that I definitely don't approve of many of their domestic policies. It's important to keep a few things in mind though:
I'm not a Chinese citizen or CPC member, so it really doesn't matter how I feel about it since they aren't accountable to me in any way.
their policies often grind against what we are used to growing up with the values impressed on us by western liberal society, but that doesn't make them wrong (this definitely doesn't apply to everything they do, some stuff is just shitty)
they are extremely non-interventionist, which is a reason that they are a big step up over the U.S. they don't give a shit about how their trade partners operate internally, though that makes them crappy socialists in my view tbh.
the rise of liberalism in China over the past few decades has allowed some nationalism to flourish, but it's still extremely incorrect to associate them with fascism imo. You can argue that they are no longer socialist, but it doesn't make them fash.
China being numba 1 instead of the US is probably not an end-game state, but there will be infinitely more opportunities for actually good socialism to flourish, particularly in developing nations, as they gain power. Something that's impossible under American hegemony.
China being numba 1 instead of the US is probably not an end-game state, but there will be infinitely more opportunities for actually good socialism to flourish, particularly in developing nations, as they gain power. Something that’s impossible under American hegemony.
Seems like a big assumption right here: is there any good reason to believe that a Chinese prevention and repression "actually good socialism" would not exist? or would be less efficient than the US ones?
EDIT: I guess it relates to your third point about non-interventionism, but wouldn't China change this policy if it became the main global power? Anyway, I still agree on the "probably not an end-game state" point. Even if the CPC was acting like the US government is currently, we all make the assumption that we are not in a end-game state right now. That's the premise of the whole thing: the US collapse and are being "replaced". Could apply to China as well later.
Right, my 3rd point leads into the fourth like you said. Their track record has been heavily non-interventionist so far, and they don't seem to be gearing up to build 800 overseas military bases. If those things start to happen, then obviously the conversation changes.
While Deng's reforms have allowed capital to get a significant foothold in their economy, the CCP still has full control, instead of vice-versa like in the US. Of course there's a chance that they slip into full capitalism, but I don't think is a whole lot higher than the chance of the CCP making good on their pinky promise to socialize their economy in the next couple of decades. Remember that they are moving at absolute lightspeed in development compared to the west, so it's difficult to predict what will happen.
Under any revolutionary doctrine, tactic, or method, it is almost a 100% certainty that you will not be able to experience communism in your lifetime. Expect a historical process not an act.
Dunno about you pal, but 1) waiting for some perfect state to replace a global hegemon isn't ever going to happen, 2) yeah, China's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than the US of fuckin A, and 3) if it means less brown people getting drone striked or couped, he'll yeah I'll support China being the next global power
And when there's a better alternative to china down the line (the bar isn't all that high), then we'll throw out support behind whoever those guys are. Unfortunately in 2020, options are a bit limited and we can't afford to wait around.
to quote someone else in this thread, "Yeah, they’re better than America, but so is literally every country that has ever existed"
but im not really the most educated on it. I just don't think anybody should have as much influence as america has right now.
I dunno man. China is pretty Fascist. I worry about them. I would prefer incrementalism and no collapse. Even if that means I don't get to experience Communism in my lifetime.
In what way is China fascist?
They are an authoratarian Socialist state right now. Have you heard their new National Anthem? It has the Fascist mantra of we were once great and we can be great again. It seems obvious to me that they are a Proto-Fascist State.
China is fascist because checks notes they have a national anthem about the Chinese people's resistance to Japanese invasion.
EDIT: did you also do a horseshoe theory wtf
China was subjugated by the great western powers for over a century, through no fault of their own: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation. The Germans started and lost a war and were humiliated for about 15 years before the Nazis showed up. The twentieth century in China is mostly defined by the struggle for national liberation.
The beginning of the end of Chinese humiliation was the Xinhai revolution in 1911. The CPC and KMT were both children of this national bourgeois revolution against the Qing and both wanted to reverse this humiliation and return China to its rightful role as an independent and important state. The difference between the two visions of China held by the successors of Sun Yat-Sen lead to a civil war in which the communist vision ultimately prevailed. The state-buliding project started by Sun Yat-Sen was continued by the CPC, and has been fruitful despite numerous setbacks and mistakes. While there are good criticisms of the CPC's actions they have ultimately resulted in a great increase in the standard of living for the Chinese people. The Chinese people recognize that whatever its faults, shortcomings and excesses the CPC has helped return their country to its rightful place in the world and created a more prosperous and stable society.
Except in China's case it wasn't some imagined national decline it was hell on earth. Civil wars and famines killing millions, infrastructure collapsing, seemingly half the population addicted to opium, and the country divided between warlords and foreign invaders.
A single line in a national anthem is hardly reason to call the entire country fascist. I really don't see how they can be "authoritarian" when its citizens have one of the highest perceptions of its democracy of any country. Take a look at this study. This is a western study by a German polling firm. 73% of Chinese citizens consider their country a democracy. That's 20-30% higher than most Western countries, excluding Scandinavian ones. Everything in that poll affirms that China is one of the most democratic countries in the world. Certainly more than the US, where the president literally got 3 million less votes than his opponent and mass voter suppression is the norm.
Globally, China replacing the US is great for democracy, as well: the US's foreign policy consists mostly of coups and regime changes. When those don't work, you get an Iraq War. China, on the other hand, doesn't coup or overthrow multiple foreign governments every year.
What about the Muslim reeducation-camps though? What about Hong Kong? What about the great-firewall?
There have been multiple threads and comments in this lemmy, as well as other communist subs that have gone in-depth into the first two, as they are most emphasised by the media, so I'll give the "brief" overview of their refutations.
The situation in Xinjiang is an issue of counter-terrorism. That is not to say that all Uyghurs are terrorists, rather that, due to Xinjiang's proximity to US-destabilised regions, there has been a higher chance of extremist ideology in the area, which has affected some Uyghurs. The evidence of this are reports (that surfaced before the camp allegations arose) of Uyghur militias being trained in Syria, and multiple attacks that include stabbings, car rammings, etc, with casualties in the hundreds. So the response of the government is to open camps, or vocational schools, to provide work training for those who may have been influenced by extremist thought. Note that this is not a blanket repression of Uyghurs or their culture. Evidence of this is abundant. It's just not reported on. Please note that this is not a blanket repression of Muslims either - China has other Muslim minorities, like the Hui, that are completely fine, and if i remember correctly, China have more mosques per capita than the US.
A sidenote that I also find interesting that is usually looked over: Xinjiang contains 20% of China's fossil fuel reserves, has the capacity to produce 10% of China's renewable energy, and serves as an essential gateway to the BRI, a project that has the potential to shift global trade and power dynamics further to Asia. I wonder why the US and the media is so interested in Xinjiang?
With regard to Hong Kong, those colonial apologists got off easy. What happened with Hong Kong was essentially an attempted colour revolution, funded by US money. You really cannot say that China is a proto-fascist state, by 1) trying to have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, which is technically Chinese territory, and already has such extradition treaties with the likes of the US and the UK, and 2) trying to, y'know, not have a successful separatist movement in a key financial hub, and 3) not actually being responsible for the deaths of anyone in Hong Kong, despite the riots going for over a year. With regard to the national security law, it literally is a law that prohibits sedition or rebellion, a law that exists everywhere else in the world. The max sentence for breaking this law is life imprisonment. As opposed to the benevolent US or Japan, where it is the death penalty. More can be said, so I defer to the other megathreads and source compilations.
The Great Firewall is actually pretty good, ngl. Ideally ofc, censorship shouldn't occur at all, but given China's main geopolitical and ideological rival has a virtual monopoly on information, I understand why it exists. It helps filter out the bullshit propaganda that we get fed here in the West, and helps develop Chinese internet services, like Weibo, to rival US ones, like Facebook. Additionally, you can bypass it pretty easily. Just get a VPN. Chinese citizens know this, and those who are bothered enough, mainly the younger generations, will get one. I have heard that the analogy that the crime of using a VPN to bypass the Firewall is like the crime of jaywalking - pretty much accepted.
This was an excellent read, thank you so much for putting this together. I've been looking for a good summary to show people of why what we're told about china is wrong.
Yeah, it's really easy and nobody really cares if you use a VPN. I download shitloads of hentai on the regular.
Never thought I'd say that I miss the volcel police
I love this narrative, the US has been torturing Uyghur muslims from Afghanistan which is neighbouring Xinjiang (and muslims from many other countries) for ages now, but all of a sudden the US loves muslims, and is very concerned about their safety. Also Hong Kong was an obvious US funded color revolution, crawling with CIA assets, US senators advising protestors and had the sole goal of getting the US congress to vote for placing sanctions on Hong Kong. The new security law is an inevitable result of the trump administration overplaying it's hand.
A perspective from an american living in china, deals with a lot of the propaganda, and especially Hong Kong's security law:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgxPKJF7EwM
I'm not here to try to Defend America. We're talking about China.
That's a cop out. We live in the imperial core, in countries with the most propagandised people in the world, a news media that is completely beholden to western security apparatus, use your critical thinking skill to investigate why western narratives have turned incredibly anti china as the US empire collapses and western capital loses its ability to wage war and coup any country they want.
Right but the point is that "talking about China" from the perspective of the imperial core lends you facts given to you by empire. How can you "talk about China" when you've already been spoonfed a bunch of nonsense about HK, etc?
Well hold on, are you dodging everything I just said? I'd be happy to discuss those three topics but you really need to address that survey.
I had a really long response typed out, but this website glitched and scrolled up to the top and deleted my whole comment. Basically, I don't think that particular study is relevant to this. That study only shows that their Citizens feel like they have a choice.
Something like 86% of US police say that US Law Enforcement is racist. Does that mean it's not racist?
I just had the same glitch. Very frustrating.
As to that comparison, it's so outrageous I'm not even sure what to say. How do cops saying cops are good refute the experience of Chinese citizens? If your claim is they are authoritarian fascists, it seems like the belief among Chinese citizens that they live in a fair democracy is extremely relevant.
I'm saying they are Proto-Fascist. Meaning the way has been paved for Fascism.
Another example of Proto-Fascism I would use is Donald Trump's Presidency.
You can call them bad policies, and open up that discussion, but being arguably bad communists doesn't make them fascist.
I'm pretty firmly anti China but this is just over the top. Not all things you don't like are fascism
deleted by creator
I'm pretty neutral toward China, but I'll say that I definitely don't approve of many of their domestic policies. It's important to keep a few things in mind though:
I'm not a Chinese citizen or CPC member, so it really doesn't matter how I feel about it since they aren't accountable to me in any way.
their policies often grind against what we are used to growing up with the values impressed on us by western liberal society, but that doesn't make them wrong (this definitely doesn't apply to everything they do, some stuff is just shitty)
they are extremely non-interventionist, which is a reason that they are a big step up over the U.S. they don't give a shit about how their trade partners operate internally, though that makes them crappy socialists in my view tbh.
the rise of liberalism in China over the past few decades has allowed some nationalism to flourish, but it's still extremely incorrect to associate them with fascism imo. You can argue that they are no longer socialist, but it doesn't make them fash.
China being numba 1 instead of the US is probably not an end-game state, but there will be infinitely more opportunities for actually good socialism to flourish, particularly in developing nations, as they gain power. Something that's impossible under American hegemony.
Seems like a big assumption right here: is there any good reason to believe that a Chinese prevention and repression "actually good socialism" would not exist? or would be less efficient than the US ones?
EDIT: I guess it relates to your third point about non-interventionism, but wouldn't China change this policy if it became the main global power? Anyway, I still agree on the "probably not an end-game state" point. Even if the CPC was acting like the US government is currently, we all make the assumption that we are not in a end-game state right now. That's the premise of the whole thing: the US collapse and are being "replaced". Could apply to China as well later.
deleted by creator
Right, my 3rd point leads into the fourth like you said. Their track record has been heavily non-interventionist so far, and they don't seem to be gearing up to build 800 overseas military bases. If those things start to happen, then obviously the conversation changes.
While Deng's reforms have allowed capital to get a significant foothold in their economy, the CCP still has full control, instead of vice-versa like in the US. Of course there's a chance that they slip into full capitalism, but I don't think is a whole lot higher than the chance of the CCP making good on their pinky promise to socialize their economy in the next couple of decades. Remember that they are moving at absolute lightspeed in development compared to the west, so it's difficult to predict what will happen.
Under any revolutionary doctrine, tactic, or method, it is almost a 100% certainty that you will not be able to experience communism in your lifetime. Expect a historical process not an act.
Some people are gonna call us libs but I'm on the same boat. China isn't perfect
Dunno about you pal, but 1) waiting for some perfect state to replace a global hegemon isn't ever going to happen, 2) yeah, China's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than the US of fuckin A, and 3) if it means less brown people getting drone striked or couped, he'll yeah I'll support China being the next global power
And when there's a better alternative to china down the line (the bar isn't all that high), then we'll throw out support behind whoever those guys are. Unfortunately in 2020, options are a bit limited and we can't afford to wait around.
Dithmarschen Peasant Republic part 2?
What are your criticisms? Nobody's saying China's perfect. I'm just saying it will be better as the world leader than the US.
to quote someone else in this thread, "Yeah, they’re better than America, but so is literally every country that has ever existed" but im not really the most educated on it. I just don't think anybody should have as much influence as america has right now.