In the lib brain - American civil religion is the most important thing in the universe and voting is a sacred covenant. The typical r/politics redditor the night of election day will unironically say...
Look, if people had turned out - Biden would have won and our democracy would have saved. But they didn't so we fucking get Trump again.
I'll want to say - I dunno - isn't the super-low turnout Biden's fault?
It's wild how there's so much entitlement inherent to that attitude:
"Um Sweaty, don't you realise that you're morally obligated to vote or else you will get my disapproval?"
"Um Sweaty, don't you realise that you're morally obligated to vote for Our Guy™ or else you will get my disapproval?"
"...gosh, why are all these people so out of touch??"
There's a non-insignificant chance that if they managed to scold everyone into voting that people might actually vote Trump in protest and they'd need to reckon with that instead of, you know, chastising people even more. I don't think it would be likely enough to happen but the fact is that it's not completely off the cards. It's more likely that you'd see a swing towards third party candidates and spoilt votes that they'd get infuriated over people "ruining democracy" by not adhering to the demands that these voters play by their arbitrary rules and they'd lament how the Dems "could have" won that swing state if only that 0.5% of spoilt votes had actually gone to Biden.
In a broader sense this is why countries like Israel play with shorter sentences for refusing conscription and why there's a lot of leniency built into how long you are imprisoned for and why imprisoning conscientious objectors for short-ish periods serves a structural function that supports the state; if you jail conscientious objectors for like 10+ years then you turn those very disaffected non-participants mostly into bitterly disaffected recruits who then start resorting to becoming Chelsea Manning figures or they start a culture of the ol' classic Vietnam War fragging of commanding officers (tyfys to those brave Vietnam War veterans unironically btw) , either of which is far more disruptive than having the government put a tiny percentage of resistors into a temporary time-out.
(Not shitting on any conscientious objectors here tho. I have nothing but love and support for them and I support their committment and personal sacrifices they make on ethical and political grounds. Just speaking about how the government structures and mitigates the threat these people are capable of posing.)
In a similar sense, if you're "conscripting" people into being compelled to vote then you risk blowback from that. And I'm not talking like countries that have "compulsory" voting where the government sends you stern letters or they make you pay small fines for not voting here.
Who should I vote for if I want to protect women's bodily autonomy? The party that is limiting it, or the party that shrugged and said they won't do anything to protect it?
Yeah this is where I'm at. Why exactly is abortion on the ballot during Biden's term? Shouldn't we blame this problem on him then? Biden has very clear steps he could take to protect abortion. He could put clinics on federal land, or pack the supreme court with 10 pro-choice judges. He could do anything other than absolutely nothing.
Until Texas starts doing ballot initiatives (don't hold your breath) I won't be stepping into a voting booth. Can't even do fucking write-ins in this backwards-ass state.
Bidens gonna win mainly because abortion is on the ballet,
Roe v Wade was lost under Biden's administration.
Biden had control of the house and senate when he was elected and did nothing to protect the right to abortion.
Democrats have been running on promises to codify Roe v Wade into law for decades. Curiously, they never actually try to make good on it when they get into office on that promise.
You have to be a grade-A sucker to believe Biden is going to do fuck-all about women's rights if he gets re-elected.
I think I failed to convey my original point. The comment I responded to said this will be the lowest-turnout election in history and Biden will lose.
Because abortion is actually going to be on the ballot in numerous states I think this may be one of the highest turnouts ever, and I think the people turning up to vote yes on protecting abortion will also vote for Biden, regardless of what he actually does for abortion.
Fingers crossed if he wins they will actually make it federal law, but that's not what I meant when I said abortion is on the ballot.
When you are wrong, when it turns out you've been a fool and are more wrong with this prediction than you can currently imagine, will you remember this?
Will you take a single solitary moment to reflect about the foolishl reasoning that brought you here?
When I'm likely right, or maybe wrong I will return. Just recently I went back to a 3-month-old comment that I promised to return to to prove myself right when something happened, and I did.
Biden is losing in polls at around the margin of voters who are deeply invested in what's going on with Gaza. He's lost the support of virtually every Muslim in America, and that's important in states with a lot of Muslims like Michigan and Minnesota. He's rapidly losing support among younger people, who are also the ones most interested in abortion rights.
I actually do think Biden may win, but my gut says it'll be a very funny situation where he wins the electoral college while losing the popular vote.
I get my dissenting opinions simply by existing in the society in which I exist. The hexbear "echo chamber" as you put it is small and powerless. This place is a tiny refuge, a brief respite from all the shitiness I see in my day to day life.
Hexbear isn't an "echo chamber" in the same way the republican media circuit is, because we have to leave it. Republicans never do. They can read articles and watch talking heads and never once be challenged on their beliefs. As a communist, I'm challenged on my beliefs every single day. Most articles I read and most talking heads I watch disagree with me.
We respond to lost libs like you for a few reasons. One is maybe we'll change a mind, not necessarily yours but perhaps a lurker reading the conversation. Another is entertainment. It's really funny when someone wanders in here and is the living embodiment of the memeing we do. Sometimes we want an argument, usually because we're having a shitty day and just want to be an asshole on the Internet. This isn't a good motivation and I wish it didn't happen, but it does. None of us is immune.
You're getting responses not because we're unused to being challenged, but because we want to respond to you for whatever reason. My response here is explaining our inner workings so hopefully you can come away from this thread seeing us as people with ideas that we believe. We haven't been tricked into thinking as we do, most of us go against the grain of our societies to come to our beliefs. I want to change a mind today, ideally yours, and I've chosen a gentle tone full of candor to try to do so. Will it be effective? I have no way of knowing, but I hope so. Please realize we're not bots or russian agents or trapped in a cult or whatever, we're humans with thoughts and experiences that have led us to our beliefs.
Hey, I enjoyed your response and am thankful you took the time to write it out. I agree with your evaluation on hexbear not truly being an echo chamber after you compared it to Republicans.
It's funny you list potential reasons for responding to me because your reasons are just about in line with mine, maybe not in regards to changing your mind because I really don't think anyone could change any of your minds ever haha, but for entertainment and sometimes just to be an ass.
Mainly the reason I interact with hexbear sometimes is because you all fascinate me, our opinions differ so much but in quite a different way vs how mine differ from a maga Republican.
I can be a petty person and come off as a dick when I'm speaking with someone who has a different opinion than me on something I'm passionate about, but I truly don't hold any hostility/hate to y'all. It's just interesting and amusing to see hexbears responses to things I say, and sometimes enlightening like yours!
I'm going to push back on just one thing you've said, which is that you don't think anyone could change any minds here. That's blatantly false. I have my mind changed all the time, and I've seen it happen with other people on here too. We're willing to have our minds changed and we understand that we're fallible and other people know more than we do about various things.
I think maybe what you meant to say is that you understand that hexbears can't be convinced to go back to being libs. And that's true. I'll never again think that the Democrats are anything other than my enemies. I used to think they were my allies, but I've changed my mind and I see now that they never were and never will be. So in that sense I guess you're right, but politics is so much bigger and more complicated than just red vs blue, elephant vs donkey.
Free yourself from the two-party bourgeois democracy you were born into. You're young, you have so much learning to do and so much time in which to do it! Lurk here and actually read the things people post. I've learned so much from my fellow hexbears and I hope you will too.
Ah. My bad, I shouldn't have mentioned "two-party" at all. The issue with our electoral system is that it's a bourgeois electoral system, not that it happens to have two parties.
I learned a new word, this also probably explains our opinion differences quite well. I grew up in the middle class and as an adult continue to reside at that level.
All in all the system has treated me well, which I'm well aware is not how most people experience it.
Actually achieving that in the US is impossible via purely peaceful "within the system" means. It would require a social upheaval, maybe not a blood revolution but at least a long period of nasty civil unrest.
Mainly the reason I interact with hexbear sometimes is because you all fascinate me, our opinions differ so much but in quite a different way vs how mine differ from a maga Republican.
you should start lurking the news megathreads. not the shitposting ones tho the bodies of those megathreads are always full of useful, interesting content. there's still shitposting in the news mega but it's very different. the news mega is where people do a lot of geopolitical analysis; there're lots of dense posts in those threads that you might enjoy for one reason or another.
We don't have downvotes because it's a dog-brained way to do discussion. As a result, when somebody posts something really stupid we can't just downvote you, we have to reply if we want to let you know we think you're a clown.
There are numerous instances still federated with hexbear, there are actual arguments here where people are actually trying to learn. It's one of the further things from an echo chamber, you can't even downvote!
Yes I agree with you now, someone else sent me a good message on why this isn't an echo chamber. I was also wondering why I didn't have any dislikes, that explains it!
I responded to somebody else in regards to my echo chamber comment, so I'll just say I have no issue with you not voting for Joe Biden and I never said I did. I just think he's going to win
Honestly this is rich considering that the other instances defederderated because they don't want to hear a dissenting opinion, not the other way around.
I think you'll find that people on here generally love when someone from another instance wanders in lol.
if i was a single issue voter for abortion, I wouldn't vote for a lifelong anti-choice democrat who allowed abortion rights to be revoked under his presidency.
A lifelong anti-choice democrat who allowed abortion rights to be revoked under his presidency AND THEN, in the run-up to his re-election campaign, had the fucking brain genius idea to say in the past year:
Democrats: If you don't vote for our antique candidate who literally opposes women's bodily autonomy, the other antique guy who also opposes women's bodily autonomy might get in!
JFC it would be so easy to be a GOP campaign consultant this year... just send these quotes to every Democratic female voter and watch the race turn (the wrong kind of) red.
Why are you pretending that Biden isn't currently in power and hasn't been in power for the past 4 fucking years? Why has he done jackshit about abortion as of yet, and why do you think he'll do something once reelected?
Legitimate question: is abortion on the ballot in Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, or Georgia?
Because if not, then it’s entirely irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. As much as everyone talks about voting (or not voting} for Biden or Trump, for the overwhelming majority of Americans who don’t live in a swing state their voting for president is pointless. So unless abortion is on the ballot in swing states it’s a non-factor.
Abortion does motivate people, and that factors into it if it’s on the ballot in swing states. But when you look at presidential candidates you would be hard pressed to find a candidate with as bad of numbers that Biden has inside and outside of his party. Not even LBJ had as bad of numbers and he dropped out of the race because he knew how unpopular he was.
Edit: According to this map, the only swing state where abortion might be on the ballot is Arizona; and Nevada if you count that as a swing state.
Maybe the Dems should get on that then if Democracy is on the line.
How seriously are you taking this election if youre putting up Biden of all people as the candidate against Trump again and especially now when he is historically extremely unpopular and has a legacy of horrible policies to drag him down further
Right, so it’s only a factor in one of the six states that determine the election. I would not call that particularly determinative for the final result. Abortion will not determine the outcome of the election, but Gaza very likely will. Or said another way, it would be incredibly bad campaign strategy for Biden to rely on abortion to carry him to victory while continuing to help genocide Palestinians.
Lmao bidens going to win because abortion is on the ballot
You're an absurd person, do you know that?
Do you know that Biden is personally responsible for helping block enshrinning abortion rights into law at least twice?
Do you even pay the slightest attention to the actions these people take, or do you just cheer and clap while reading press statements and Twitter posts
When I come back to brag it's not because I support Joe sending aid to Israel to commit genocide, it's because y'all are so deep in your echo chamber you are basically MAGA but opposite and it will amuse me when you're wrong.
Sorry an outsider has spoken in the sacred echo chamber, dissenting opinions do not belong here
If Biden wins it will be because he convinced morons like you that "Abortion is on the ballot". It must be nice to have no thoughts and just repeat advertising slogans. Do you just have "Eat Fresh" playing on loop in your head as well?
If abortion is on the ballot, then go vote for that actual policy in your state. There is no way to guarantee that Democrats protect abortion rights even if elected, and their track record is piss poor. Electing Biden will do nothing about abortion in individual states, and we know that because he isn't doing shit about those restrictions now.
I mean I'll be voting for Biden mainly because Trump's a dictator wannabe (you guys like that right?) and Biden has sorta done an okay job supporting Ukraine with military aid, which I also support. Abortion is on the ballot in my state so I will be voting to support that as well.
Lol well me interacting here is partially because I find hexbear interesting and I want to know more. I deleted my reddit account the day they disabled 3rd party apps :'(. I like Lemmy
If you really felt this way you could try, I dunno, asking fucking questions?
Waltzing into a leftist space and flaunting how politically illiterate you are while being inflammatory and without asking earnest questions is such a ridiculous move to make and then complain when people got mad
I didn't say I liked hexbear, I like Lemmy. I know it was originally made by communists or whatever but sadly for y'all it's grown well beyond that origin story.
Well once you scroll for a while on Lemmy past all the higher like count posts it's mostly hexbear and porn on my feed, so ya I interact here on occasion because y'all are interesting and amusing.
I love to make unfounded claims about the politics of the people I'm talking to, and let them know how much I'm going to gloat about me being right and then being wrong, even though I admittedly don't understand anything they're saying.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't believe Ukraine is a fascist coup regime, in fact I think that's a better description of Russia except the coup part, Putin just has total control anyway.
Either way since you seem to support Russia I will just state how much I love seeing the significant material and personnel loss Russia is suffering in the invasion. It is astonishing how significantly Ukraine has degraded their capabilities and displaced their status as one of the best armies in the world, and I honestly cannot wait to see what Ukraine does next.
I don't know what my favorite part is, Ukraine destroying/disabling Russia's entire black sea fleet (they are too scared to use their remaining ships since they have lost so many) or that Ukraine has removed 10% (maybe up to 15% so far https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-strikes-may-have-hit-15-russian-refinery-capacity-nato-official-2024-04-04/) of Russia's refinery capacity with drone strikes, and that number will continue to grow.
I doubt you will since you probably dislike me but check out the song Vicarious by Tool, read the lyrics.
It's funny you highlight Ukraine's losses when Russia's are significantly higher. Ukraine gets to fight for their land as long as Ukraine wants to, you don't get to say "oh think of the Ukrainian children" like you care for them.
The only thing a Ukrainian child is good to you for is cannon fodder in your insane war against Russia which for you has nothing to do with Russia as a country and everything to with your conspiracy theories about the 2016 election that you still haven't gotten over
is more fascist than and no amount of your ignorance will change that any more than your ignorance will change the outcome for those nazi fucks you support
Lmao, it's funny you call Ukrainians Nazis. Did you see how Russian security services cut the ear off one of the suspects from the terrorist attack in Russia, forced the ear into the man's mouth, then took a selfie with the knife he used to remove the ear next to his Nazi patch on his arm. The dude then proceeded to auction the knife off.
Every country has Nazis, Russia certainly has significantly more than Ukraine.
Every country has Nazis, Russia certainly has significantly more than Ukraine.
Woof. Buddy. If we've built any rapport, you and I, I'd like to cash it in here. Please, for me, spend some time and energy trying to back up this specific claim, that Russia has more actual Nazis than Ukraine. I don't think this is true, but if you, who I've had positive interactions with, can come up with some evidence for its truth, I'll consider it, truly. For real, I'm not doing propaganda, I'm not trying to lead you into a trap, I'm asking you to please, spend some time looking into this claim to see if you actually agree with it upon closer inspection. And if you do, well then I promise I'll truly think about the evidence you present, I'll come at it with no preconceived notions, honestly believing that my friend Zetta might be correct.
Every country has Nazis, Russia certainly has significantly more than Ukraine.
This "every country has Nazis" point is an extreme cop-out. It's technically true, but it minimizes the extent that Nazism plays a role in the Ukrainian government and nation, and downplays the prevalence of Nazism.
As for the problem of Nazism in general society, it's not comparable to the average in other nations. I'll specifically use Western sources for this to avoid claims of "Russian propaganda":
You misunderstood the song, the point of the song is that everyone feeds on someone else's misfortune. Humans have an intrinsic need for violence and horror, just watch the news and that's all that they have on because that's what people want to see.
The very first line in the song is more inline with how I feel it relates to me and all other humans "Eye on the TV, 'cause tragedy thrills me"
The only lyric that mentions angels is mocking people for believing mankind intrinsically has a good heart.
"Credulous at best, your desire to believe in Angels in the hearts of men Pull your head on out your hippy haze and give a listen"
Actually I just realized I was thinking of Right In Two
Regardless, you've just confirmed that you are disgusting. No, I do not take any thrills from watching the slaughter in Ukraine. You've told on yourself.
Well I do appreciate some of the insight in this comment, I was under the impression hexbear supported Russia and I was confused about that given the state of LGBT rights there. I even considered making a post here asking that exact question!
I'll do some more reading on Ukraine's current government but doubt my overall opinion on supporting them will change.
Reality is not a Marvel movie, you bloodthirsty piece of shit. An entire generation of people is being slaughtered on both sides of this war and your reaction is that you love seeing the "personnel loss" which is just a liberal way of saying murdered people. This is why we hate liberals, you view human misery as entertainment.
Of course you would support continuing the wars, it's your favorite past-time, liberal. You claim people don't care about foreign policy, and yet here you are, making a vote based on foreign policy.
My understanding of what a liberal is is just the first paragraph on Wikipedia and I assume that's not exactly what you think of as a liberal?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
I'm not sure what I am politically, I've never given it much thought. I just vote based on who's available to vote for and what they support specifically.
On here we use global definition of liberal. This mean that they support private property, capitalism, current world system, and the bourgeois rule. They can want anything from the strict austerity to the social democracy. Liberalism is the official ideology of the United States Constitution. Every politician in the United States is a liberal. Two party system do not allow anyone who is not a liberal to run.
Definitely, unlike you who loves freedom and democracy, we hate all people and think they should be lorded over by an unaccountable dictator who society has no influence on the decision of, no matter how unpopular that person is, we just want to force them through!
Our foriegn policy has direct effects on global markets. Our excessive sanctions squeeze supply and drive up prices. Our overt and covert meddling in the Global South effect prices and eventually mass migrants. They'll get mad at the "invasion at the border" but they refuse to take that next logical past the nose leap and ask what is the root cause of this? They'll move armies of trucks and tractors for symptoms, but refuse to see America for the damned monster it is despite people through the generations pointing to exactly the problem
Fascists that control the finacial class in this country.
Smedley Butler warned us they wanted to do a fascist coup. Eisenhower warned us of the investor-defense Military Industrial Complex. Kennedy warned us that those who are unable to protest in their nations for peaceful change will result in violent overthrows. Wesley Clark said we were taken over by a Policy Coup by the Project for a New American Century
It takes maaybe a few hours of cursory education to see finance corrupt politicians and finance manipulating foreign policy and how that directly effects prices at home.
The knock on effects of this war and subsequent consequences in the Middle East, Africa, and Europe will directly be felt in American pocketbooks forever. Once it inflates, capital wants to lock in those inflated prices. That is the nature. Every dollar they earn, have earned, will earn is now worth less because they didn't give a shit about some brown people being genocided.
You guys are weird, abortion is on the ballot in many states
Yeah in specific state ballots you dumb fuck lmao, that doesn't magically translate into turnout for the general election, especially considering Roe vs Wade was lost under Biden's watch and he doesn't support "abortion on demand" as he calls it
Do you even support abortion, feels like you just picked an issue at random to try and engineer a gotcha, despite the fact you clearly had no idea about Biden's stated position lmao try again
I do support abortion, it's on the ballot in my state and I'll be voting yes!
I picked abortion to comment on because it's the biggest issue amongst most American voters (in my eyes), abortion will get people to vote in general and that likely includes voting for a president.
he's gonna get blown out in the lowest-turnout election in modern American history
In the lib brain - American civil religion is the most important thing in the universe and voting is a sacred covenant. The typical r/politics redditor the night of election day will unironically say...
I'll want to say - I dunno - isn't the super-low turnout Biden's fault?
And then we'll see these same types salivating at the thought of Trump's policies hurting minorities because "They should've voted for Biden."
It's wild how there's so much entitlement inherent to that attitude:
"Um Sweaty, don't you realise that you're morally obligated to vote or else you will get my disapproval?"
"Um Sweaty, don't you realise that you're morally obligated to vote for Our Guy™ or else you will get my disapproval?"
"...gosh, why are all these people so out of touch??"
There's a non-insignificant chance that if they managed to scold everyone into voting that people might actually vote Trump in protest and they'd need to reckon with that instead of, you know, chastising people even more. I don't think it would be likely enough to happen but the fact is that it's not completely off the cards. It's more likely that you'd see a swing towards third party candidates and spoilt votes that they'd get infuriated over people "ruining democracy" by not adhering to the demands that these voters play by their arbitrary rules and they'd lament how the Dems "could have" won that swing state if only that 0.5% of spoilt votes had actually gone to Biden.
In a broader sense this is why countries like Israel play with shorter sentences for refusing conscription and why there's a lot of leniency built into how long you are imprisoned for and why imprisoning conscientious objectors for short-ish periods serves a structural function that supports the state; if you jail conscientious objectors for like 10+ years then you turn those very disaffected non-participants mostly into bitterly disaffected recruits who then start resorting to becoming Chelsea Manning figures or they start a culture of the ol' classic Vietnam War fragging of commanding officers (tyfys to those brave Vietnam War veterans unironically btw) , either of which is far more disruptive than having the government put a tiny percentage of resistors into a temporary time-out.
(Not shitting on any conscientious objectors here tho. I have nothing but love and support for them and I support their committment and personal sacrifices they make on ethical and political grounds. Just speaking about how the government structures and mitigates the threat these people are capable of posing.)
In a similar sense, if you're "conscripting" people into being compelled to vote then you risk blowback from that. And I'm not talking like countries that have "compulsory" voting where the government sends you stern letters or they make you pay small fines for not voting here.
Matt Christman with those sage predictions again...
5 dudes show up to vote for trump
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Who should I vote for if I want to protect women's bodily autonomy? The party that is limiting it, or the party that shrugged and said they won't do anything to protect it?
Yeah this is where I'm at. Why exactly is abortion on the ballot during Biden's term? Shouldn't we blame this problem on him then? Biden has very clear steps he could take to protect abortion. He could put clinics on federal land, or pack the supreme court with 10 pro-choice judges. He could do anything other than absolutely nothing.
It's also not on the ballot in my state of Texas.
Until Texas starts doing ballot initiatives (don't hold your breath) I won't be stepping into a voting booth. Can't even do fucking write-ins in this backwards-ass state.
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GOOD POST
Roe v Wade was lost under Biden's administration.
Biden had control of the house and senate when he was elected and did nothing to protect the right to abortion.
Democrats have been running on promises to codify Roe v Wade into law for decades. Curiously, they never actually try to make good on it when they get into office on that promise.
You have to be a grade-A sucker to believe Biden is going to do fuck-all about women's rights if he gets re-elected.
I think I failed to convey my original point. The comment I responded to said this will be the lowest-turnout election in history and Biden will lose.
Because abortion is actually going to be on the ballot in numerous states I think this may be one of the highest turnouts ever, and I think the people turning up to vote yes on protecting abortion will also vote for Biden, regardless of what he actually does for abortion.
Fingers crossed if he wins they will actually make it federal law, but that's not what I meant when I said abortion is on the ballot.
It's only on the ballot in one marginal swing state. You're just wish casting, this is isn't analysis.
When you are wrong, when it turns out you've been a fool and are more wrong with this prediction than you can currently imagine, will you remember this?
Will you take a single solitary moment to reflect about the foolishl reasoning that brought you here?
When I'm likely right, or maybe wrong I will return. Just recently I went back to a 3-month-old comment that I promised to return to to prove myself right when something happened, and I did.
Gloating about the times you were right is not remotely the same as reflecting on the times you were wrong
Very good point, we shall see if I do a better job if I'm wrong
Saving this comment
Biden is losing in polls at around the margin of voters who are deeply invested in what's going on with Gaza. He's lost the support of virtually every Muslim in America, and that's important in states with a lot of Muslims like Michigan and Minnesota. He's rapidly losing support among younger people, who are also the ones most interested in abortion rights.
I actually do think Biden may win, but my gut says it'll be a very funny situation where he wins the electoral college while losing the popular vote.
In this moment I am euphoric
Thank you, I don't know if it's because I made a mistake or what but I'm happy to bring you pleasure
I'm pretty sure it's your level of delusion.
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please do, tag us all. we will all make fun of you again
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"I said some stupid shit and people responded, lol they must be upset." Parrot brain.
Hey, that's mean to parrots
*I said something that triggered the hexbear echo chamber is more accurate.
Since everyone de federated y'all you probably don't get many dissenting opinions, and they really seem to cause a reaction
I get my dissenting opinions simply by existing in the society in which I exist. The hexbear "echo chamber" as you put it is small and powerless. This place is a tiny refuge, a brief respite from all the shitiness I see in my day to day life.
Hexbear isn't an "echo chamber" in the same way the republican media circuit is, because we have to leave it. Republicans never do. They can read articles and watch talking heads and never once be challenged on their beliefs. As a communist, I'm challenged on my beliefs every single day. Most articles I read and most talking heads I watch disagree with me.
We respond to lost libs like you for a few reasons. One is maybe we'll change a mind, not necessarily yours but perhaps a lurker reading the conversation. Another is entertainment. It's really funny when someone wanders in here and is the living embodiment of the memeing we do. Sometimes we want an argument, usually because we're having a shitty day and just want to be an asshole on the Internet. This isn't a good motivation and I wish it didn't happen, but it does. None of us is immune.
You're getting responses not because we're unused to being challenged, but because we want to respond to you for whatever reason. My response here is explaining our inner workings so hopefully you can come away from this thread seeing us as people with ideas that we believe. We haven't been tricked into thinking as we do, most of us go against the grain of our societies to come to our beliefs. I want to change a mind today, ideally yours, and I've chosen a gentle tone full of candor to try to do so. Will it be effective? I have no way of knowing, but I hope so. Please realize we're not bots or russian agents or trapped in a cult or whatever, we're humans with thoughts and experiences that have led us to our beliefs.
Hey, I enjoyed your response and am thankful you took the time to write it out. I agree with your evaluation on hexbear not truly being an echo chamber after you compared it to Republicans.
It's funny you list potential reasons for responding to me because your reasons are just about in line with mine, maybe not in regards to changing your mind because I really don't think anyone could change any of your minds ever haha, but for entertainment and sometimes just to be an ass.
Mainly the reason I interact with hexbear sometimes is because you all fascinate me, our opinions differ so much but in quite a different way vs how mine differ from a maga Republican.
I can be a petty person and come off as a dick when I'm speaking with someone who has a different opinion than me on something I'm passionate about, but I truly don't hold any hostility/hate to y'all. It's just interesting and amusing to see hexbears responses to things I say, and sometimes enlightening like yours!
I'm going to push back on just one thing you've said, which is that you don't think anyone could change any minds here. That's blatantly false. I have my mind changed all the time, and I've seen it happen with other people on here too. We're willing to have our minds changed and we understand that we're fallible and other people know more than we do about various things.
I think maybe what you meant to say is that you understand that hexbears can't be convinced to go back to being libs. And that's true. I'll never again think that the Democrats are anything other than my enemies. I used to think they were my allies, but I've changed my mind and I see now that they never were and never will be. So in that sense I guess you're right, but politics is so much bigger and more complicated than just red vs blue, elephant vs donkey.
Free yourself from the two-party bourgeois democracy you were born into. You're young, you have so much learning to do and so much time in which to do it! Lurk here and actually read the things people post. I've learned so much from my fellow hexbears and I hope you will too.
I completely agree the two party system is a joke, we'd be much better off with many more parties with differing opinions and ranked choice voting.
Ah. My bad, I shouldn't have mentioned "two-party" at all. The issue with our electoral system is that it's a bourgeois electoral system, not that it happens to have two parties.
I learned a new word, this also probably explains our opinion differences quite well. I grew up in the middle class and as an adult continue to reside at that level.
All in all the system has treated me well, which I'm well aware is not how most people experience it.
The system has treated me fairly well as well. But once you see the ugly side of it there's no real going back.
Actually achieving that in the US is impossible via purely peaceful "within the system" means. It would require a social upheaval, maybe not a blood revolution but at least a long period of nasty civil unrest.
you should start lurking the news megathreads. not the shitposting ones tho the bodies of those megathreads are always full of useful, interesting content. there's still shitposting in the news mega but it's very different. the news mega is where people do a lot of geopolitical analysis; there're lots of dense posts in those threads that you might enjoy for one reason or another.
good post
We don't have downvotes because it's a dog-brained way to do discussion. As a result, when somebody posts something really stupid we can't just downvote you, we have to reply if we want to let you know we think you're a clown.
There are numerous instances still federated with hexbear, there are actual arguments here where people are actually trying to learn. It's one of the further things from an echo chamber, you can't even downvote!
Yes I agree with you now, someone else sent me a good message on why this isn't an echo chamber. I was also wondering why I didn't have any dislikes, that explains it!
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I responded to somebody else in regards to my echo chamber comment, so I'll just say I have no issue with you not voting for Joe Biden and I never said I did. I just think he's going to win
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Honestly this is rich considering that the other instances defederderated because they don't want to hear a dissenting opinion, not the other way around.
I think you'll find that people on here generally love when someone from another instance wanders in lol.
They're making fun of you
Coming into someone else's space and being an annoying loser will do that to ya
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if i was a single issue voter for abortion, I wouldn't vote for a lifelong anti-choice democrat who allowed abortion rights to be revoked under his presidency.
A lifelong anti-choice democrat who allowed abortion rights to be revoked under his presidency AND THEN, in the run-up to his re-election campaign, had the fucking brain genius idea to say in the past year:
Democrats: If you don't vote for our antique candidate who literally opposes women's bodily autonomy, the other antique guy who also opposes women's bodily autonomy might get in!
JFC it would be so easy to be a GOP campaign consultant this year... just send these quotes to every Democratic female voter and watch the race turn (the wrong kind of) red.
I wish no harm on the American ruling class. My enemy is the American people.
Why are you pretending that Biden isn't currently in power and hasn't been in power for the past 4 fucking years? Why has he done jackshit about abortion as of yet, and why do you think he'll do something once reelected?
Biden is literally the current president, his party could save abortion right now if they wanted to
No but you see... Civility... Bipartisanship... More bombs for Israel.
Legitimate question: is abortion on the ballot in Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, or Georgia?
Because if not, then it’s entirely irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. As much as everyone talks about voting (or not voting} for Biden or Trump, for the overwhelming majority of Americans who don’t live in a swing state their voting for president is pointless. So unless abortion is on the ballot in swing states it’s a non-factor.
Abortion does motivate people, and that factors into it if it’s on the ballot in swing states. But when you look at presidential candidates you would be hard pressed to find a candidate with as bad of numbers that Biden has inside and outside of his party. Not even LBJ had as bad of numbers and he dropped out of the race because he knew how unpopular he was.
Edit: According to this map, the only swing state where abortion might be on the ballot is Arizona; and Nevada if you count that as a swing state.
It's going to be in the ballot in Arizona, I haven't checked the others
Maybe the Dems should get on that then if Democracy is on the line.
How seriously are you taking this election if youre putting up Biden of all people as the candidate against Trump again and especially now when he is historically extremely unpopular and has a legacy of horrible policies to drag him down further
Like fuck you man, get a soul.
Right, so it’s only a factor in one of the six states that determine the election. I would not call that particularly determinative for the final result. Abortion will not determine the outcome of the election, but Gaza very likely will. Or said another way, it would be incredibly bad campaign strategy for Biden to rely on abortion to carry him to victory while continuing to help genocide Palestinians.
Lmao bidens going to win because abortion is on the ballot
You're an absurd person, do you know that?
Do you know that Biden is personally responsible for helping block enshrinning abortion rights into law at least twice?
Do you even pay the slightest attention to the actions these people take, or do you just cheer and clap while reading press statements and Twitter posts
Gullible fool
let it burn
But we do. And thats we refuse to vote for genocide enablers but I understand condemning genocide is a skill issue for you
Totally fair to not vote for someone supporting something you don't support.
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When I come back to brag it's not because I support Joe sending aid to Israel to commit genocide, it's because y'all are so deep in your echo chamber you are basically MAGA but opposite and it will amuse me when you're wrong.
Sorry an outsider has spoken in the sacred echo chamber, dissenting opinions do not belong here
lmao why would you type out something this juvenile for everyone to see, genuinely pathetic motives
I'm juvenile and petty, sorry bud
You give me the ick
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You're truly reprehensible, you stand for nothing
I'll remind you constantly when he loses
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Fair enough, talk to you after the election!
If Biden wins it will be because he convinced morons like you that "Abortion is on the ballot". It must be nice to have no thoughts and just repeat advertising slogans. Do you just have "Eat Fresh" playing on loop in your head as well?
If abortion is on the ballot, then go vote for that actual policy in your state. There is no way to guarantee that Democrats protect abortion rights even if elected, and their track record is piss poor. Electing Biden will do nothing about abortion in individual states, and we know that because he isn't doing shit about those restrictions now.
I mean I'll be voting for Biden mainly because Trump's a dictator wannabe (you guys like that right?) and Biden has sorta done an okay job supporting Ukraine with military aid, which I also support. Abortion is on the ballot in my state so I will be voting to support that as well.
Yeah bro everyone here loves Trump.
I think you're joking but I honestly have no idea what you folks are saying 68% of the time
Love to be proud of my ignorance. What a fucking dumbass.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ you all just use lingo, jokes, and references I don't understand, I'm not proud to be ignorant but ok
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Lol well me interacting here is partially because I find hexbear interesting and I want to know more. I deleted my reddit account the day they disabled 3rd party apps :'(. I like Lemmy
If you really felt this way you could try, I dunno, asking fucking questions?
Waltzing into a leftist space and flaunting how politically illiterate you are while being inflammatory and without asking earnest questions is such a ridiculous move to make and then complain when people got mad
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I didn't say I liked hexbear, I like Lemmy. I know it was originally made by communists or whatever but sadly for y'all it's grown well beyond that origin story.
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Well once you scroll for a while on Lemmy past all the higher like count posts it's mostly hexbear and porn on my feed, so ya I interact here on occasion because y'all are interesting and amusing.
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Lmao, okay
You are absolutely proud of your ignorance.
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You support a fascist coup regime
You support genocide
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't believe Ukraine is a fascist coup regime, in fact I think that's a better description of Russia except the coup part, Putin just has total control anyway.
Either way since you seem to support Russia I will just state how much I love seeing the significant material and personnel loss Russia is suffering in the invasion. It is astonishing how significantly Ukraine has degraded their capabilities and displaced their status as one of the best armies in the world, and I honestly cannot wait to see what Ukraine does next.
I don't know what my favorite part is, Ukraine destroying/disabling Russia's entire black sea fleet (they are too scared to use their remaining ships since they have lost so many) or that Ukraine has removed 10% (maybe up to 15% so far https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-strikes-may-have-hit-15-russian-refinery-capacity-nato-official-2024-04-04/) of Russia's refinery capacity with drone strikes, and that number will continue to grow.
Lmao "concerned" about genocide and cheering on fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian child. Fuck you for being excited about war.
I doubt you will since you probably dislike me but check out the song Vicarious by Tool, read the lyrics.
It's funny you highlight Ukraine's losses when Russia's are significantly higher. Ukraine gets to fight for their land as long as Ukraine wants to, you don't get to say "oh think of the Ukrainian children" like you care for them.
We care more than you, you deranged monster
The only thing a Ukrainian child is good to you for is cannon fodder in your insane war against Russia which for you has nothing to do with Russia as a country and everything to with your conspiracy theories about the 2016 election that you still haven't gotten over
Lmao, it's funny you call Ukrainians Nazis. Did you see how Russian security services cut the ear off one of the suspects from the terrorist attack in Russia, forced the ear into the man's mouth, then took a selfie with the knife he used to remove the ear next to his Nazi patch on his arm. The dude then proceeded to auction the knife off.
Every country has Nazis, Russia certainly has significantly more than Ukraine.
Woof. Buddy. If we've built any rapport, you and I, I'd like to cash it in here. Please, for me, spend some time and energy trying to back up this specific claim, that Russia has more actual Nazis than Ukraine. I don't think this is true, but if you, who I've had positive interactions with, can come up with some evidence for its truth, I'll consider it, truly. For real, I'm not doing propaganda, I'm not trying to lead you into a trap, I'm asking you to please, spend some time looking into this claim to see if you actually agree with it upon closer inspection. And if you do, well then I promise I'll truly think about the evidence you present, I'll come at it with no preconceived notions, honestly believing that my friend Zetta might be correct.
This "every country has Nazis" point is an extreme cop-out. It's technically true, but it minimizes the extent that Nazism plays a role in the Ukrainian government and nation, and downplays the prevalence of Nazism.
A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
Nazi collaborator monuments in Ukraine
National Guard of Ukraine boasts of coating bullets with pig fat to be used against Muslim soldiers
Tweet by Ukrainian parliament and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine openly celebrating Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera
Huge portrait of Stepan Bandera on the building of the Ternopil Regional Council
Ukrainian media discusses President Zelensky praising Nazi collaborator, Stepan Bandera
As for the problem of Nazism in general society, it's not comparable to the average in other nations. I'll specifically use Western sources for this to avoid claims of "Russian propaganda":
BBC Newsnight - Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine
The Nation - Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
TIME - Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine
I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Link 1:
Link 2:
You've misunderstood that song. You're not one of the angels on the sidelines, you're no angel.
You misunderstood the song, the point of the song is that everyone feeds on someone else's misfortune. Humans have an intrinsic need for violence and horror, just watch the news and that's all that they have on because that's what people want to see.
The very first line in the song is more inline with how I feel it relates to me and all other humans "Eye on the TV, 'cause tragedy thrills me"
The only lyric that mentions angels is mocking people for believing mankind intrinsically has a good heart.
"Credulous at best, your desire to believe in Angels in the hearts of men Pull your head on out your hippy haze and give a listen"
Actually I just realized I was thinking of Right In Two
Regardless, you've just confirmed that you are disgusting. No, I do not take any thrills from watching the slaughter in Ukraine. You've told on yourself.
maynard is a sex pest
A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.
do you have a source for this?
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Well I do appreciate some of the insight in this comment, I was under the impression hexbear supported Russia and I was confused about that given the state of LGBT rights there. I even considered making a post here asking that exact question!
I'll do some more reading on Ukraine's current government but doubt my overall opinion on supporting them will change.
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lol i literally told them to do the same thing, i hope they do cuz i think they'd really find it interesting
I'll check it out when I'm home later today
Reality is not a Marvel movie, you bloodthirsty piece of shit. An entire generation of people is being slaughtered on both sides of this war and your reaction is that you love seeing the "personnel loss" which is just a liberal way of saying murdered people. This is why we hate liberals, you view human misery as entertainment.
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
You're disgusting
Fuck Trump.
Of course you would support continuing the wars, it's your favorite past-time, liberal. You claim people don't care about foreign policy, and yet here you are, making a vote based on foreign policy.
Yeah, yeah, we know what you care about.
My understanding of what a liberal is is just the first paragraph on Wikipedia and I assume that's not exactly what you think of as a liberal? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
I'm not sure what I am politically, I've never given it much thought. I just vote based on who's available to vote for and what they support specifically.
On here we use global definition of liberal. This mean that they support private property, capitalism, current world system, and the bourgeois rule. They can want anything from the strict austerity to the social democracy. Liberalism is the official ideology of the United States Constitution. Every politician in the United States is a liberal. Two party system do not allow anyone who is not a liberal to run.
Genuinely insightful, thanks
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Truly honestly not doing a bit
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I also don't really know what a tankie is
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Definitely, unlike you who loves freedom and democracy, we hate all people and think they should be lorded over by an unaccountable dictator who society has no influence on the decision of, no matter how unpopular that person is, we just want to force them through!
Wait that's Biden
If Trumps such an evil fascist why didn't he go full Hitler in his first term?
Why wouldn't he just eat McDonalds and watch Fox all day in his second term like he did his first?
Lol
Our foriegn policy has direct effects on global markets. Our excessive sanctions squeeze supply and drive up prices. Our overt and covert meddling in the Global South effect prices and eventually mass migrants. They'll get
mad at the "invasion at the border" but they refuse to take that next logical past the nose leap and ask what is the root cause of this? They'll move armies of trucks and tractors for symptoms, but refuse to see America for the damned monster it is despite people through the generations pointing to exactly the problem
Fascists that control the finacial class in this country.
Smedley Butler warned us they wanted to do a fascist coup. Eisenhower warned us of the investor-defense Military Industrial Complex. Kennedy warned us that those who are unable to protest in their nations for peaceful change will result in violent overthrows. Wesley Clark said we were taken over by a Policy Coup by the Project for a New American Century
It takes maaybe a few hours of cursory education to see finance corrupt politicians and finance manipulating foreign policy and how that directly effects prices at home.
The knock on effects of this war and subsequent consequences in the Middle East, Africa, and Europe will directly be felt in American pocketbooks forever. Once it inflates, capital wants to lock in those inflated prices. That is the nature. Every dollar they earn, have earned, will earn is now worth less because they didn't give a shit about some brown people being genocided.
Yeah in specific state ballots you dumb fuck lmao, that doesn't magically translate into turnout for the general election, especially considering Roe vs Wade was lost under Biden's watch and he doesn't support "abortion on demand" as he calls it
Do you even support abortion, feels like you just picked an issue at random to try and engineer a gotcha, despite the fact you clearly had no idea about Biden's stated position lmao try again
I do support abortion, it's on the ballot in my state and I'll be voting yes!
I picked abortion to comment on because it's the biggest issue amongst most American voters (in my eyes), abortion will get people to vote in general and that likely includes voting for a president.
Haha, it will be funny to see who was on the copium after the election. Me or hexbear, talk to you in November!
No matter who wins we lose
Yes that is true, the downfall of America is all that will satisfy hexbear
Hexbear, and millions of victims worldwide, will delight in the fall of the US empire.
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Don't threaten us with a good time
this is the only true thing you've managed to post in this thread
Yes
Genuine question no joke 100% serious, how old are you? I'm now 90% sure I've been talking to a minor
In my 20s, no minor communication for you
Early 20s?