I'm a 1.63 (5'3 or 5'4 I think?) amab in the worlds tallest country (the Netherlands) and can confirm it sucks. A lot. Especially for your self confidence and dating life. But you get over that through becoming a well rounded, mentally healthy and interesting person, and therapy if necessary. No way I would try to "fix" it with this nightmare surgery.
i don't understand why body shaming fat people is bad and body shaming short guys is funny and cool, nor do i understand how people get why fat people get self-conscious but don't get it for short guys
If anything it should be the other way around. At least most fat people could lose weight with exercise and dietary changes, but short people can't do anything go change their height.
Obviously we shouldn't shame people for their physical appearance in general, but it's strange how we have it exactly backwards.
Being clear about what you want and not wasting people's time is exhibiting good social skills. Poor social skills is stringing someone along who you ultimately won't want to meet up with because you're not attracted to them.
You claim that being short is routinely derided, but if you're counting this kind of behaviour as deriding honestly it's kind of hard to take the claim seriously.
IDK comrade I think this kind of reasoning tends toward a kind of incel logic where men are just supposed to get women independent of what women actually want.
Being open and honest about your desires and deal-breakers is a way to be considerate about people's feelings. Treating that as some sort of personal attack is bringing a lot of your own baggage to the table.
And FWIW I didn't say it is incel logic, but it trends in that direction.
Is someone putting "No Fat Chicks" on their social media, or tinder bio not body shaming?
The main argument, as far as I can tell, that you can say as to why one would be body-shaming while the other wouldn't, is on the basis that the person putting forward the standard that I'm using in comparison is presumably a man. Whereas the one maintaining the standard in the opposite case is presumably a woman.
And incidentally, I do actually think both of these would be bad standards to have; and funnily enough the one about body-fat is ironically more relevant to me than the height one.
Is someone putting “No Fat Chicks” on their social media, or tinder bio not body shaming?
I think this disingenuouly conflates two separate ideas: is it ok to have and state preferences about the kind of bodies you're attracted to, and whether you're doing so in a neutral way or a cruel, bullying way.
It seems like you're of the opinion people aren't allowed to be attracted to certain things and not others, which like, fine you can believe that but I don't really believe you do in practice.
I think the thing you're missing is men swipe left all the time based on weight, or breast size, or just closeness to whatever standard of beauty they have. The difference is most of these apps are photo-based, so there's no need to explicitly specify those preferences. Height, on the other hand, is quite hard to determine by looking at photos a person has selected, so if it's important to someone they have every right to state that.
I think this disingenuously conflates two separate ideas: is it ok to have and state preferences about the kind of bodies you’re attracted to, and whether you’re doing so in a neutral way or a cruel, bullying way.
You're probably right about that, but I do also think that it's worth interrogating in ourselves why we find certain types of bodies attractive, and what types of people we find attractive or not, and why. That is actually something I try to think about on my own time, and it's something that I do try to make concessions about in as much as I'm capable.
It's worth noting, that I don't think women would do this out of any kind of ill-will, really. Certainly not in the same way that my hypothetical dude would be. I highly doubt that they actually know exactly what a "6 foot" guy actually looks like anyways (in the sense that I don't think most people could eyeball that as a precise measurement). The point is that they would want a guy who's noticeably taller than both themselves & other men around them. And the question is like "Why; where exactly is that desire coming from?"
And I imagine if you really dug into it it's more than just a personal preference. :shrug-outta-hecks:
Or rather that there are specific reasons for those preferences that would be surprisingly gender-essentialist, and those probably ought to be challenged.
It seems like you’re of the opinion people aren’t allowed to be attracted to certain things and not others...
My take is that I don't necessarily care if any particular person has a specific set of preferences with regards to who they like to hang out with, or what they're attracted to.
However it's very difficult to disentangle broad social trends about those things, from the manifest reality of social hierarchies between people, & social discrimination between types of people. Which isn't just about targeting people for abuse & mistreatment btw, it's also about leaving them isolated, or without a community.
In effect I do think that both men & women can reproduce patriarchal standards (and also other kinds, not just those specifically) through who they choose to associate with. And for that reason it's worth being at least mildly skeptical of, and pressing people a little bit to explain why they "like what they like".
I think the thing you’re missing is men swipe left all the time based on weight, or breast size, or just closeness to whatever standard of beauty they have. The difference is most of these apps are photo-based, so there’s no need to explicitly specify those preferences. Height, on the other hand, is quite hard to determine by looking at photos a person has selected, so if it’s important to someone they have every right to state that.
That's a fair point & counterargument. I suppose that it is true that they would do that, and that this isn't really something that is easily questioned, or discouraged within the framework of dating apps. I would say that this is a reason why dating apps are in general, probably bad.
Thank you for the even-handed response. I don't ultimately disagree that our biases are worth interrogating, but I also would put forward that ultimately all our thoughts and preferences are socially conditioned and at a certain point it's okay to just accept that you like certain things and don't like others and just try to be happy.
Mostly I push back in these convos because it always feels like another situation where men try to control women's sexual agency :shrug-outta-hecks:. Thanks for your thoughts comrade.
Yeah, maybe I worded that wrong. I'm short and I went through some years of real pain about it. I could just tell a certain percentage of people I interacted with didn't think I was a real person. I imagine that's what a lot of minorities feel like maybe, not to over sell it, but yeah we live in a judgemental society and people tend to feel raw about what people are judging them for.
I spent a lot of time on dating apps until I met my spouse. Like... years. The complaint that hetero women see 6'0" in freedom units as the minimum height in a man for dating is generally very true, at least in my observation. I can see a guy who's like 5'7"-5'10" doing this, absolutely. Especially given how ubiquitous dating apps are.
dating apps are practically the only way people meet these days
that's fucking depressing if true. I'm realizing I'm never gonna make it on these shitty apps (not that my IRL prospects are much better, but I'm ready to give up on virtual crap)
Dudes get very, very into how tall they are. It's a whole ego thing, and you can tell it's an incel thing because they specify engineers do this
I'm a 1.63 (5'3 or 5'4 I think?) amab in the worlds tallest country (the Netherlands) and can confirm it sucks. A lot. Especially for your self confidence and dating life. But you get over that through becoming a well rounded, mentally healthy and interesting person, and therapy if necessary. No way I would try to "fix" it with this nightmare surgery.
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i don't understand why body shaming fat people is bad and body shaming short guys is funny and cool, nor do i understand how people get why fat people get self-conscious but don't get it for short guys
If anything it should be the other way around. At least most fat people could lose weight with exercise and dietary changes, but short people can't do anything go change their height.
Obviously we shouldn't shame people for their physical appearance in general, but it's strange how we have it exactly backwards.
Is there actually a lot of body shaming of short dudes outside of like middle school? I’ve never seen that before.
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This isn't body shaming though right? We can agree on that?
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How is it shaming for women to express a preference in appearance?
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Being clear about what you want and not wasting people's time is exhibiting good social skills. Poor social skills is stringing someone along who you ultimately won't want to meet up with because you're not attracted to them.
You claim that being short is routinely derided, but if you're counting this kind of behaviour as deriding honestly it's kind of hard to take the claim seriously.
IDK comrade I think this kind of reasoning tends toward a kind of incel logic where men are just supposed to get women independent of what women actually want.
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Being open and honest about your desires and deal-breakers is a way to be considerate about people's feelings. Treating that as some sort of personal attack is bringing a lot of your own baggage to the table.
And FWIW I didn't say it is incel logic, but it trends in that direction.
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Is someone putting "No Fat Chicks" on their social media, or tinder bio not body shaming?
The main argument, as far as I can tell, that you can say as to why one would be body-shaming while the other wouldn't, is on the basis that the person putting forward the standard that I'm using in comparison is presumably a man. Whereas the one maintaining the standard in the opposite case is presumably a woman.
And incidentally, I do actually think both of these would be bad standards to have; and funnily enough the one about body-fat is ironically more relevant to me than the height one.
I think this disingenuouly conflates two separate ideas: is it ok to have and state preferences about the kind of bodies you're attracted to, and whether you're doing so in a neutral way or a cruel, bullying way.
It seems like you're of the opinion people aren't allowed to be attracted to certain things and not others, which like, fine you can believe that but I don't really believe you do in practice.
I think the thing you're missing is men swipe left all the time based on weight, or breast size, or just closeness to whatever standard of beauty they have. The difference is most of these apps are photo-based, so there's no need to explicitly specify those preferences. Height, on the other hand, is quite hard to determine by looking at photos a person has selected, so if it's important to someone they have every right to state that.
You're probably right about that, but I do also think that it's worth interrogating in ourselves why we find certain types of bodies attractive, and what types of people we find attractive or not, and why. That is actually something I try to think about on my own time, and it's something that I do try to make concessions about in as much as I'm capable.
It's worth noting, that I don't think women would do this out of any kind of ill-will, really. Certainly not in the same way that my hypothetical dude would be. I highly doubt that they actually know exactly what a "6 foot" guy actually looks like anyways (in the sense that I don't think most people could eyeball that as a precise measurement). The point is that they would want a guy who's noticeably taller than both themselves & other men around them. And the question is like "Why; where exactly is that desire coming from?"
And I imagine if you really dug into it it's more than just a personal preference. :shrug-outta-hecks:
Or rather that there are specific reasons for those preferences that would be surprisingly gender-essentialist, and those probably ought to be challenged.
My take is that I don't necessarily care if any particular person has a specific set of preferences with regards to who they like to hang out with, or what they're attracted to.
However it's very difficult to disentangle broad social trends about those things, from the manifest reality of social hierarchies between people, & social discrimination between types of people. Which isn't just about targeting people for abuse & mistreatment btw, it's also about leaving them isolated, or without a community.
In effect I do think that both men & women can reproduce patriarchal standards (and also other kinds, not just those specifically) through who they choose to associate with. And for that reason it's worth being at least mildly skeptical of, and pressing people a little bit to explain why they "like what they like".
That's a fair point & counterargument. I suppose that it is true that they would do that, and that this isn't really something that is easily questioned, or discouraged within the framework of dating apps. I would say that this is a reason why dating apps are in general, probably bad.
Thank you for the even-handed response. I don't ultimately disagree that our biases are worth interrogating, but I also would put forward that ultimately all our thoughts and preferences are socially conditioned and at a certain point it's okay to just accept that you like certain things and don't like others and just try to be happy.
Mostly I push back in these convos because it always feels like another situation where men try to control women's sexual agency :shrug-outta-hecks:. Thanks for your thoughts comrade.
only in the #1 greatest country in the world
What does that look like, practically, OOC?
its a very American thing I think, but everything here is focused on gaining a competitive edge. You dont want to be a beta male do you?
Yeah, maybe I worded that wrong. I'm short and I went through some years of real pain about it. I could just tell a certain percentage of people I interacted with didn't think I was a real person. I imagine that's what a lot of minorities feel like maybe, not to over sell it, but yeah we live in a judgemental society and people tend to feel raw about what people are judging them for.
well, what height is that?
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yeah youre going to deal with some rejection
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I spent a lot of time on dating apps until I met my spouse. Like... years. The complaint that hetero women see 6'0" in freedom units as the minimum height in a man for dating is generally very true, at least in my observation. I can see a guy who's like 5'7"-5'10" doing this, absolutely. Especially given how ubiquitous dating apps are.
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that's fucking depressing if true. I'm realizing I'm never gonna make it on these shitty apps (not that my IRL prospects are much better, but I'm ready to give up on virtual crap)
If you go on :reddit-logo: say women should be able to date people with the features they're attracted to they will fucking flip out at you lol
Dating apps and their consequences, etc etc.