Russia Kidnapping Ukrainian Children, AP Report Claims.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Russia Kidnapping Ukrainian Children, AP Report Claims.
Removed by modThousands of children have been found in the basements of war-torn cities like Mariupol and at orphanages in the Russian-backed separatist territories of Donbas. They include those whose parents were killed by Russian shelling as well as others in institutions or with foster families, known as “children of the state.”
Russia claims that these children don’t have parents or guardians to look after them, or that they can’t be reached. But the AP found that officials have deported Ukrainian children to Russia or Russian-held territories without consent, lied to them that they weren’t wanted by their parents, used them for propaganda, and given them Russian families and citizenship.
The investigation is the most extensive to date on the grab of Ukrainian children, and the first to follow the process all the way to those already growing up in Russia. The AP drew from dozens of interviews with parents, children and officials in both Ukraine and Russia; emails and letters; Russian documents and Russian state media.
Whether or not they have parents, raising the children of war in another country or culture can be a marker of genocide, an attempt to erase the very identity of an enemy nation.
Even where parents are dead, Rapp said, their children must be sheltered, fostered or adopted in Ukraine rather than deported to Russia.
Russian law prohibits the adoption of foreign children. But in May, Putin signed a decree making it easier for Russia to adopt and give citizenship to Ukrainian children without parental care — and harder for Ukraine and surviving relatives to win them back.
Russia also has prepared a register of suitable Russian families for Ukrainian children, and pays them for each child who gets citizenship — up to $1,000 for those with disabilities. It holds summer camps for Ukrainian orphans, offers “patriotic education” classes and even runs a hotline to pair Russian families with children from Donbas.
“It is absolutely a terrible story,” said Petro Andryushchenko, an adviser to the Mariupol mayor, who claims hundreds of children were taken from that city alone. “We don’t know if our children have an official parent or (stepparents) or something else because they are forcibly disappeared by Russian troops.”
Russia portrays its adoption of Ukrainian children as an act of generosity that gives new homes and medical resources to helpless minors. Russian state media shows local officials hugging and kissing them and handing them Russian passports.
It’s very hard to pin down the exact number of Ukrainian children deported to Russia — Ukrainian officials claim nearly 8,000. Russia hasn’t given an overall number, but officials regularly announce the arrival of Ukrainian orphans in Russian military planes.
In March, Russian children’s rights ombudswoman Maria Lvova-Belova said more than 1,000 children from Ukraine were in Russia. Over the summer, she said 120 Russian families had applied for guardianship, and more than 130 Ukrainian children had received Russian citizenship. Many more have come since, including a batch of 234 in early October.
She acknowledged that at first, a group of 30 children brought to Russia from the basements of Mariupol defiantly sang the Ukrainian national anthem and shouted, “Glory to Ukraine!” But now, she said, their criticism has been “transformed into a love for Russia,” and she herself has taken one in, a teenager.
The children of Mariupol aren’t the first Russia has been accused of stealing from Ukraine.
In 2014, after Russia annexed the Crimean Peninsula, more than 80 children from Luhansk were stopped at checkpoints and abducted. Ukraine sued, and the European Court of Human Rights found the children were taken into Russia “without medical support or the necessary paperwork.” The children were returned to Ukraine before a final decision.
Kateryna Rashevska, a human rights defender, said she knows of about 30 Ukrainian children from Crimea adopted by Russians under a program known as Train of Hope. Now, she said, some of those children might well be Russian soldiers. Since 2015, the Young Army Cadets national movement has trained youth in Crimea and Russia for potential recruitment into the military.
This time around, at least 96 children have been returned to Ukraine since March after negotiations. But Ukrainian officials have tracked down the identities of thousands more in Russia, and the names of many others simply aren’t published.
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You left a lot of the article out of the bits you chose to snip. Like all the parts about chaos as parents flee the country without their children as refugees, or Ukraine not actually knowing what children are missing, or where the relatives of those children are. The article doesn't have a lot of credibility in the first place - Are there 8,000 children missing? 1,000? Does Ukraine know or not know? - and the bits you snipped out don't reflect the moderate amount of complexity that's actually in the article.
Also conspicuously not mentioned; Soldiers stopped the kids at a checkpoint because they had photocopied identity documents and no accompanying parents. Maybe they did it because they're cartoonishly evil villains attempting genocide, or maybe they did it because this is exactly how you kidnap children as a human trafficker - Fake documents, no parents, trying to remove a group of children from a warzone?
Then, much to her dismay, she found out that other Ukrainian orphans who were with her children had been issued new identity documents for the DPR. The Donetsk authorities dropped a bombshell. She could have her children back — if she came through Russia to Donetsk to get them in person.
After abandoning her children in a war zone she refused to go and get them. That's not kidnapping, that's abandonment. And they did eventually work something out where someone was given power of attorney and allowed to transport the kids to France.
Honestly this article is just a mess. It doesn't even do a good job backing up it's own assertions.
Honestly this article is just a mess. It doesn’t even do a good job backing up it’s own assertions.
Can't tell if this article was written by A.I. or by an bunch of interns having their own articles but needing to combine them into one franken article. :fry:
Yeah I tried to post the parts I felt were important and seemed to be based on facts (or at least could be proven/disproven) rather than the anecdotes and stuff they always include to get people emotionally invested. But maybe I went too far and cut out too much? the post was already becoming long, and I did link the article so that anyone who wanted could read the entire thing.
Do they workshop atrocity propaganda in writers rooms like SNL? I want to see a '30 rock' like show for theseguys. What's their 'beep beep ribi ribi'?
you're right, the DPRK does have unicorns and we must strive to be the most credulous of morons
Operation Swift Wings is a go, release the Unicorn battalions
Thousands of children have been found in the basements of war-torn cities like Mariupol and at orphanages in the Russian-backed separatist territories of Donbas.
oh, you mean, russian speaking areas. weird how the russians are taking care of russian kids :thinking-about-it:
What? Did you even read the article?
Kids, many who have families are taken from these areas and sent to Russia to be adopted by Russian families. You don't think that's fucked up? What the fuck?
legit i'm trying to find anything about any of this that is independently sourced in other languages and it is a word for word translation from state.gov and timesofisrael.com
not saying its impossible, but you should also consider that it isnt exactly easy to pass people through front lines to family members on the other side between two warring states. raising someone as ukrainian or russian is a nebulous concept at best as well.
You're just taking this at face value without any further investigation? Their evidence seems to be "trust us bro".
Needs to be more thoroughly investigated.
It seems the Russians are actually just putting children in foster homes and really wherever they can, but the west is mistranslating it and labeling it as "russian abduction"
Yeah that's pretty much what I'm expecting but obviously some investigation is worthwhile. There's genuinely some worthwhile concern to have for children that may slip through the cracks in what is a monumental opportunity for anyone that wishes to do real harm. The disorganisation and potential for missing children is still quite high even with the best of intentions of the Russian state in taking these actions to protect children from a warzone.
It seems extremely disorganized but the minister leading the effort in a relatively new office seems to be doing a lot of legwork. Like, every day she is physically with a new group of orphans personally finding them some place to go that isn't just a bomb shelter near the front lines. Definitely more than what most politicians in the west would do, I give her that. Shes a capitalist politician of course.
of course, as stated, russia has a huge corruption problem, and kids may be taken by actual bad parties. But it isn't some government conspiracy to do this, or raise them as soldiers, or do this sort of thing. It makes me soothed to know that at the very least, even western media had to admit that the last time this exact thing happened, and like you said: all the children were returned. If even they can't put dampeners on this, then they really did what they claim.
There should be further protection to make sure all children are where they are supposed to be. This is Post-soviet Russia after all, and this is a far larger conflict. I think that goes without saying though.
Oh, so the last time they kidnapped children, they had to return them because Ukraine literally sued them and went to authorities like the European Court of Human Rights. Wow, that really proves Russia cares about the kids.
I'd say if an invading force bombs a city, kills its people, then takes the surviving children away into their country and gives them away to strangers, then yeah, that is abduction.
what is your opinion on the ukraine war, because it sounds very... sus. Your framing is lacking nuance, and aligns with western narratives. That city was full of fucking nazis I think eliminating them and their fortress is completely and utterly justified in every single case.
and again, it is an evacuation. And by the account of the person you linked, it is a sane one, trying to get kids fostered and housed to escape the war that is currently going on. If they can't house them with relatives, yes it is okay to try to temporarily house them with others. I'm not supporting some sort of cultural erasure, I'm supporting sane ideas to get children out of warzones, which is what's happening.
One of the claims of the article is that Russia is denying returning the vast majority of those kids to Ukraine when Ukraine demands it. That is definitely kidnapping and wrong, no?
On the Ukraine war, it should be ended as soon as possible, with whatever negotiations are needed so that the deaths are stopped and people can be safe. US and the West will fight Russia using Ukraine till literally every Ukrainian is dead and Russia isn't going grow a moral backbone and back down either. That will only lead to more death and destruction.
I posted some summaries of what the Russian minister for all this is doing and saying below
did you read it? because I've had to mention it twice now.
Yeah I'm responding to comments as I see them, not in any set order.
Russia literally admitted to taking the kids and framed it as a good thing. If this is a lie, then it should be extremely easy to prove, no?
Never said that. They have a lot of sus shit even in this article. But that doesn't take away from the fact that children are being taken from their homes (which were bombed) into Russia and given to Russian families. Russia literally admits it. They just say its a good thing.
Oh wow, what a great source. Let me look into it a bit further.
Huh, they have an article on their home page called Facts about Covid. I wonder what they are:
Vaccination cannot prevent infection and transmission. A prior infection generally confers superior and more durable immunity compared to vaccination.
Covid vaccinations can cause severe and fatal vaccine reactions, including cardiovascular, neurological and immunological reactions. Because of this, the risk-benefit ratio of covid vaccination in healthy children and adults under 50 years of age remains controversial.
lockdowns had no significant effect on infection rates. However, according to the World Bank lockdowns caused an “historically unprecedented increase in global poverty” of close to 100 million people.
Genetic evidence points to a laboratory origin of the new coronavirus. Both the Virological Institute in Wuhan (WIV) as well as some US laboratories that cooperated with the WIV performed various kinds of research on similar coronaviruses.
If that wasn't enough, they literally believe that the MOON LANDING WAS A HOAX .
Like, sure, western media is bad and biased and used for propaganda. But the alternative is not to fucking read literal trash rags.
I could also go onto every single site you might send to me about literally anything, find two things that are dismissable (and not at all what someone actually sent you), and then use that to dismiss anything genuinely accurate.
You have literally dodged engaging with any of the content you have been sent, you're not participating in good faith.
ive tried responding to every fucking comment as best i can. im only one person. not to mention, this post got fucking removed and so did half my comments.
Because you're not participating in good faith and you're being a massive and annoying liberal. You dodge any content that you don't like by dismissing sources instead of actually critically engaging with content.
You have handed over your ability to judge to liberal media through this attitude you have of "reliable" sources. You decide that content is dismissable unless it comes from some recognisable media owned by billionaires. Your entire concept of reliability is built not by any notion of real reliability but instead by marketing, by recognisability, by how much you have seen a source previously used by liberals.
Get this notion of reliable out of your head. Judge content by the content. Western media makes you extremely manipulatable by filling your brain with this idea of reliable sources so that you become trained to just trust whatever they say instead of judging content based on content. They do it to make you listen to them without resistance while acting in a resisting and sceptical way to anything you've not seen before.
You should judge content on merit, on your own actual ability to critically judge what the content says, but instead it is painfully obvious that you do the liberal thing and have no ability to judge or engage with anything by yourself.
You dodge any content that you don’t like by dismissing sources instead of actually critically engaging with content.
oh like so many people did here, in this very fucking thread?
Also, one of the key markers of judging if a source is reliable or not is by seeing how they report on issues you do know about. if their reporting on those issues is correct, you can afford some level of trust that they would be okay on issues you dont know about.
in the case of your article, i read through it. i didn't "attack" it because its obvious and makes sense. i then went to the site to see what other articles they have, thinking they might be a genuine source i could use/follow. That is when i saw the anti-covid and moon landing hoax bs. which i posted. dont act like you knew all that was there. you didnt do your fucking research.
Also, one of the key markers of judging if a source is reliable or not is by seeing how they report on issues you do know about. if their reporting on those issues is correct, you can afford some level of trust that they would be okay on issues you dont know about.
No, you CAN'T afford some level of trust. Not at all. Watch from 0:00 to 6:10 but to be honest the whole thing is worth your time.
We do not afford trust to figures we on the left recognise. Zizek? Fuck him. Man's a giant fucking wanker recently and everyone on this site will tell you so because everyone here judges content on merit not on where it's from. His output lately has been pure unfiltered shit. Chomsky? We usually don't like him, a lot of his older stuff is absolute shit, but his content recently has been absolutely excellent.
i didn’t “attack” it because its obvious and makes sense.
Then fucking say that so that people don't think they're utterly wasting their time engaging with you! You've avoided any kind of sense of agreement or mutuality throughout the thread. If you engaged with people and agreed with any of the content they actually send to you then you'd find them feeling like their time is not being so massively wasted because it demonstrates that you are receptive in some way or another.
Ok that video is very scary. Jesus.
The idea that the very method I used to judge sources is what they’re using to spread propaganda. Plant true stories, especially in areas where people might know things, to get them to trust you, then plant fake stuff. That’s seriously fucked. If that’s the case then how do you even judge anything , how do you find out what is actually real.
Edit - combine that with the article you posted before and it paints a picture of literally thousands of CIA agents all over the world, choosing which stories to cover and which to suppress, how to spin things, and straight up fabricating stuff, then sending it to all the major publications. All the time. Constantly. Daily. As news.
And that's the CIA when they were less embedded, less powerful and less influential than they are today.
When we say things like Jessica Ashooh being a CIA plant at reddit we sound insane but, when you start learning about how the CIA has always operated, you realise it's really not a joke.
Trust absolutely nothing and ALWAYS judge content on its own merit.
If that’s the case then how do you even judge anything, how do you find out what is actually real.
One of the first things you should learn to do is seek primary sources, for example when it comes to USSR related content we seek out primary sources in the soviet archives instead of relying on secondary and tertiary sources. Media are usually a tertiary source reporting on a secondary source reporting on a primary source. You have to follow the chain, and if it doesn't go back to a primary source then MORE INVESTIGATION is needed to find primary sources that confirm or debunk a given issue.
Edit - combine that with the article you posted before and it paints a picture of literally thousands of CIA agents all over the world, choosing which stories to cover and which to suppress, how to spin things, and straight up fabricating stuff, then sending it to all the major publications. All the time. Constantly. Daily. As news.
Yes. We live in that world today. Always seek primary sources.
Its a painful reminder that they still hold most of the cards, and can pull a billion people around like puppets whenever they want.
It is, but I feel it changing. Left media grows stronger while consciousness of this bullshit is developing in more and more people.
Eventually this person will fully develop, like many others. And go on to help others develop this understanding.
:sankara-shining: Never stop explaining
How do we know this is not another yanks lie? They’ve been lying in this war, hiding and omitting information.
It could be. It could be lies, or exaggeration or something.
But one of the article's claims is literal Russian state agents admitting to taking children from war areas in Ukraine and raising them as Russian and framing that as a good thing. So Russia isn't denying the acts.
Another claim is how Russia did something back in Crimea but had to return those children. If that's not true, then that should be very easy to disprove. But I haven't seen that either.
If these facts are proven to be false, then that would obviously cloud doubt on the entire article.
So, they shouldn’t take them out from war area when they do the evacuation corridors? Like, we know that most of the east Ukrainian, which ethnically Russian fled to Russia. This obvious with how close those two nation are during Soviet and Khrushchev literally transfer the territory to Ukraine
They shouldn't raise them as Russian children, giving them to Russian families, and telling them lies about how their parents abandoned them, then refusing to cooperate with Ukranian authorities in giving them back. Those are the claims.
The Russian claim
Russia claims that these children don’t have parents or guardians to look after them, or that they can’t be reached
The yanks claim differently. The Russian has been shady, but the Yanks has been Goebell level with their propaganda
Even then, if the kids are Ukranian, which no one disputes, shouldn't they be in Ukraine? Whether thats with families if they have them or in a foster care etc, as is appropriate, but not in Russia being given to strangers?
Worth noting these areas are all legally considered Russia in the eyes of the Russian Federation's law now. They aren't leaving Ukraine in their legal system now, they're moving from Russia to another part of Russia.
If some sort of issue with this happened before and the children were then later returned it suggests there's something more to the story here than just something evil and sinister.
The report is new but the incidents they mentioned happened way earlier (May). Back then Russia couldn't claim they were taking Russian kids from one part of Russia to another. Putin even signed a decree making it easier to give Ukranian orphans Russian citizenship. I posted it.
U.S. Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues
.....America has one of those? Is their job just there to mock the planet?
Their main job is thieve. Usually thieve like to call others thrives. They’re that shameless
That's such a funny fucking title. By funny I meant rage-inducing.
he would have a field day if they ever did their job and focused inwards lmao
wayyyyyyy too committed to these small things. The only way this could be some sort of bit if it was a fellow comrade trying to keep us on our toes, but that sounds unlikely.
Yeah, my username is real sus, Mr. American Communist. That's definitely what should be the focus.
when I first read it I was very sus because it gave me PatSoc vibes. Conservatives are the only ones who usually use the term "American" in their names and stuff. American Patriot etc.
A fair suspicion, but I shall clarify with some evidence. This is really just a legacy name, as it is the first name I gave myself years ago. I am an American, and I detest it, but it is what I am. I am a communist, and I love it, it is what I am. They are the two great contradictions that make me, me. I have used it ever since. I am also cursed by inability to change names on hexbear. I hold nothing but hatred and spite for this country, and on lemmygrad I am known for my rants on the subject. I also specifically asked as a requirement if Hexbear banned all such patriots. It is under the only post I have made to the site under my account.
Pretty shitty reporting
They include those whose parents were killed by Russian shelling as well as others in institutions or with foster families, known as “children of the state.”
Well as if Russian shelling is the primary reason for civilian casualties in the region lol. Don't ask what the nazis did to people who wanted to flee the siege, don't ask what they did to "collaborators".
Right away I have no problem saying that giving a child back to the same people that executed their parents is incredibly fucked up and you'd have to create an incredible strawman to justify it. Sure maybe they have some family 800km away in western Ukraine or something, good luck proving that though, there is no reason to believe Ukrainians wouldn't just falsify the same records themselves.
She acknowledged that at first, a group of 30 children brought to Russia from the basements of Mariupol defiantly sang the Ukrainian national anthem and shouted, “Glory to Ukraine!”
Fucking jokerfying shit as if the millions of children saying the pledge of allegiance means they are American patriots(and similar shit around the world).
Also I should mention there was a shit ton of reporting about the Azov bases in Mariupol, some of them included, guess what school basements too. I'll just say that children were shouting the same thing the adults around them were saying, possibly under duress too. Do they even recognize Russian soldiers? Who knows they probably say whatever the adults want in order to not get in trouble.
But ultimately, even if all of that was true, still you can't have your cake and it too. If Russia is indoctrinating these children with pro-Russian sentiment then you'd have to be a fucking moron to not realize an 8yo shouting "Glory to Ukraine" also wasn't indoctrinated.
you’d have to be a fucking moron to not realize an 8yo shouting “Glory to Ukraine” also wasn’t indoctrinated.
im sorry indoctrination only occurs in asian countries. Ukraine is fully west of the urals.
Ok so you’re against giving kids to their families within Ukraine becuase they might be lying and it’s hundreds of kilometers away. Fair.
But you don’t have a problem with taking kids away from their homes (which you bombed) into a different country also thousands of kilomenters away, giving them to people who are literally complete strangers?
It's Mariupol. These are russian children with russian parents who have lived in a city that specifically had nazi paramilitaries installed there to ensure they don't step out of line again after they tried to kick Ukraine out of their city 7 years ago.
these kids are being taken from their homes (which were bombed) and brought into Russia, to be adopted by Russian families. That is fucked.
Russia and Ukraine are lines drawn on a map. Many of the people in Eastern Ukraine are ethnically and linguistically Russians and are only considered Ukrainian in so far as that's the nation-state the owns and administers the region they live in. A large part of why this war kicked off was Western Ukrainian nationalists oppressing, or trying to repress, Eastern Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity. A lot of orpahns are probably ethnically and linguistically Russian, and sending them to orphanages in Western Ukraine where that Russian identity would be forced out of them would be a form of ethnic cleansing.
This war is much, much more complicated than the news would suggest. The ethnic-conflict is pretty much invisible in Western Media because it needlessly complicated the "Ukraine righteous and noble, Russia evil and profane" narrative.
Yeah, that's a possibility. All borders are fake and areas on either side of the border between two countries usually have way more in common with each other than people on the other side of their own country.
There's another important thing unsaid - There are a lot of ethnic Russians in the Donbas. Like millions of them. They're ethnically Russian, they speak Russian as their first and primary language, and they're only Ukrainian because they happened to be living on that side of the border when the Ukrainian SSR collapsed. It's very likely that a lot of orphans in eastern Ukraine have family in Russia.
That's possible, and might be true in some circumstances, but I doubt its true for all the cases or even the majority. USSR collapsed 30 years ago, after all. Maybe if we had more sources and both sides were actually open and transparent about what was happening, it would be better. So far, that's not been the case and I doubt that'll change. We'll probably only learn the true extent of what is going on years (or even decades) after the war has ended.
USSR collapsed 30 years ago
Yes, but the borders between Russia and Ukraine were largely formalities up until 2014. Many Ukrainians have family in both Russia and Ukraine and travel between them was common and routine. This issue is particularly prone to being propagandized as it involves children and can somewhat credibly be tied in to the generally farcical idea that Russia intends to commit or is committing genocide. Just omitting any mention that many people in Eastern Ukraine are Russian changes the story from a complicated narrative about the difficulties facing war orphans to a one sided narrative where Russia is kidnapping children.
In broad strokes what they describe is likely happening - Russia is transporting children from war torn cities to safer areas and finding housing and shelter for them. But the article categorizes this entirely as kidnapping, removing any possible nuance or complexity from the story and rendering it purely propaganda. Even simple qualifications, like the possibility that children might be temporarily separated from relatives who fled Ukraine to Russia as refugees, are entirely missing. The numbers are also rather questionable - 8,000 children are supposedly missing, but only 130ish families are involved in caring for the children Russia has kidnapped? And for that matter where does the 8,000 number come from. Eastern Ukraine has been in turmoil since the Donbas war started, and it's only gotten dramatically worse since the invasion. There are millions of Ukrainians who have fled the country as refugees, both to the west and Europe, but also to Russia to escape persecution and violence from the Kiev regime.
There's just not much useful information in the article. The claims it makes are not well supported or elaborated on and the things that are specifically omitted very clearly demonstrate the biases and purposes of the article.
Ukrainians hiding in the basement- May 28
Ukrainians shoot at the feet of civilians who try to flee Mariupol
Nazis wouldn't let people out of the basements in Mariupol
Azov goes into basements and kills, rapes people
You get the idea, Do you have telegram? If not then you may not be able to see some of those videos. Those are real people giving interviews, they are not even Russian.
So lets just say even one of the stories I'm linking here are "true". This is just the tip of the icerbeg there are probably hundreds of telegram posts documenting the shit that went down in Mariupol.
But lets just say even 10% of what the "pro-Russian" channels posts is true. Then I think that none of those children are going to be thanking you 20 years in the future when they learn what realy happened in Mariupol and how instead of being sent somewhere safe they were forced to go back to the "correct" side.
In an ideal world I think Russia should be open to negotiating some sort of investigation after a peace treaty, but we are still potentially years away from that. Right now imo every good argument in favor of the Ukrainian position is countered by the fact Ukrainian society realy didn't seem to give any shit about what was going on in the ethinicaly Russian part of the country, and the Ukrainian government incorporated the same Nazis that committed these crimes against these children and their families.
So turning back around now and crying about these children seems incredibly hypocritical.
Women from Mariupol documenting the Azov attrocities.
Realy as I said even if 10% of what the Russians post is true...
(which you bombed)
Unnecessary and other-ing.
Also it is described below that the person in charge connects them to relatives and such when possible. I see the problem, but I consider getting the kids out of a warzone top priority, since this war won't stop until it's finished. As I stated before, I consider it critical that such services are immediately streamlined and protected to make sure no kids fall through the gaps, and that your document link may lean to something more. But first things first, survival.
The main claim that remains, imo, is that Ukraine claims Russia isn't returning the vast majority of children it took. We'll probably only find out the truth after the war is long over, if we ever find out the truth. Till then, it might be best to just say there are an unknown number of Ukrainian orphans in Russia in the aftermath of the war who aren't able to return home.
To be fair, Ukraine will say whatever it needs to justify further total war. Of course they can't return kids to parts of Ukraine as it is currently highly active as a war zone. If its not soon, the pushes in December/January will make it such. There's also no telling how Ukraine would treat these kids. They may use them as propaganda, and not even give them back to their families. Many Children are that of Russian descent living in the donbass region, which was being bombed and burned for 8 years past by the Ukrainian Nazi-loving government, and would likely be at risk by the government. The Ukraine government has also been linked to bombings of their own civilians and refugees to further increase war justification, so these kids could just be killed by them to do more of the same.
Speaking of that OP, I found another credible story you might like: "Secret documents reveal how China mass detention camps work" (https://apnews.com/article/china-cables-ap-top-news-international-news-china-race-and-ethnicity-4ab0b341a4ec4e648423f2ec47ea5c47). The evidence is just overwhelming, I guess we should just be outraged and cheer for regime change!
YoU CaN'T JuSt iGnOrE AcTuAl dOcUmEnTs!!! :biden-leftist:
show me where the fuck i wanted regime change, you absolute muppet.
I 100% support china. you know why? because they're a socialist country run by a communist party. I have an inherent bias towards them. It would take a lot to convince me that China is bad or evil or whatever.
That's not the case for fucking Russia, which, need I remind you, is a capitalist country run by vultures who feasted on the corpse of the Soviet Union, the first great socialist experiment.
Come the fuck on.
Try to put in CW warnings when talking about disturbing events
The main contention it seems is whether this counts as kidnapping or not. I believe so, based partly on the claim Ukraine is making that Russia isn't returning the vast majority of the children it took.
The main contention it seems is whether this counts as kidnapping or not.
Counter point, the main point of the article is to frame this not as "kidnapping happening in areas where borders are in a constant state of flux" but as "the Russian government having a policy of going out and kidnapping kids from Ukrainian citizens" for reasons not explained but the use of the word "genocide" near the beginning of the article is kinda telling what the AP is trying to achieve with this narrative.
please for the love of god Russia , return the Children into the Ukraine warzone !!! Conscription starts at 16 ... !!!
oh I see , its not the Dunk tank ...
:yea:
EDIT: I heard they get used as Blood Supply , every Russian Ambulance has a compardment in which 5 Children hang , one for every bloodtype ... , its horrific...
It kinda is. Evacuating children to safe areas with shelter and not allowing them to return to an active warzone is being portrayed as kidnapping, just as earlier evacuations were portrayed as forced deportation. Yes, there are likely a ton of issues with the execution of this plan, but the alternative is leaving civilians, adult and children, in the line of fire. And that is unconscionable
I've come to a conclusion based on the translation of the new Russian citizenship law. I merged the posts from one of the lower threads.
I got curious and I searched the law in full text lmao. My Russian abilities are gonna be stretched real thin here on legalese so just an fyi
Law amends rules for citizenship
Says 'Orphaned and disabled children left without parental care, incapcitated persons who are citizens of the DPR, LPR, or Ukraine can choose to acquire citizenship of Russia'
Those who have the right to apply are 'guardians of the child, guardian of an incapacitated person who is a citizen of Russia, DPR, LPR, or Ukraine except (paraphrasing because some words confuse me) in case of injured/incapacitated parents or guardians or people unable to currently fulfill parental duties.' An organization from Russia, DPR, LPR, Ukraine that is holding children not temporarily but permanently can also apply for the child's citizenship, temporarily is defined by parents not being available but could be expected to be available in the future, basically. A medical or social services organization from Russia, Ukraine, etc can apply for citizenship of incapacitated people so that they will have their educational and medical needs properly met.
Frankly being a dual citizen is kinda cushy (I am one) so I really dont see the problem here. It doesnt revoke Ukrainian citizenship unless a Ukrainian law doesnt allow Russians to hold Ukrainian citizenship, at which point thats on the Ukrainians for being assholes
Apparently this whole thing is started by a Ukrainian faction that wanted to criminalize holding a dual citizenship (at all!). This muddies the water for them which is making them throw a temper tantrum. Now you know!
They already have a law on the books that Ukrainian citizens cannot be citizens of Russia and will have their rights revoked. So they feel threatened that Russia is expanding the citizenship process. It has nothing to do with kidnapping children, they just want everyone in their country to be forced to stay there. The sensible action would be to allow dual citizens, but it is Ukraine that is forcing the breaking up of families here as Russia is the one that is being kind and allowing these children and their families citizenship and relocation benefits.
Why would it need to be a conspiracy? It sounds more like its a couple of NGOs and some church groups. It sounds like they're rounding up kids whose parents are missing or dead and putting them on a bus to Russia where they get sent to foster homes. And not very many foster homes, what did it say, like 130?
It seems really dumb from any perspective to put tons of work into brainwashing a small amount of children from an enemy country to become soldiers for the RF, which is one of the conspiracies being peddled at the moment.
They mentioned kids in Crimea, which is 80%+ Russian speaking Ethnic Russians, most of whom work in some capacity for the Russian Black Sea Fleet, and whom are only Ukrainians because Crimea was more or less symbolically given to Ukraine in the 50s. Up until 91 the distinction didn't matter, and after 91 the penninsula was basically shared by Ukraine, who technically owned it, and Russia, which had a big important naval base there.
So it seems a lot more likely that soldiers coming from Crimea are ethnic Russians who have always considered themselves Russians rather than people who strongly identified as Ukrainians and were somehow brain washed to serve Putin's evil schemes.
Yeah I've no doubt the West is using this as propaganda, which is why I just tried to focus on the bits I thought were actually important (like the fact of the children being kidnapped).
fair, but isn't that the propaganda we're arguing about?
Yeah, I'm not arguing this is some grand conspiracy. It's just another shady/shitty thing happening during the war. Both sides (West-backed Ukraine and Russia) are doing terrible things. It's war.
what is the link to the actual russian document he signed into law, you need that to be making these kinds of declarations
Here’s what I found: This is the original report by Ukrainskya Pravda. It lists the exact terms of the decree. It also links to the actual document which is in Russian. I put in the start into Google translate to ensure it’s the same document and it is.
The AP says that "ukrainian officials claim nearly 8000", but your source claims 200,000. Or maybe the 1.1 million people your source claims have been "deported" from ukraine never wanted to be part of the post-euromaidan ukraine because they formed breakaway republics (DPR/LPR) and were being murdered by government supported fascist battalions like Azov, Aidar, C14, Tornado, etc.
Or maybe trying to remove silly legal hurdles that would have kept the kids locked out of state services due to bureaucratic barriers.
Nah, I just saw this stuff so much a while ago, and it turned out their definition of "kidnapping" was taking the kids out of an active warzone through the humanitarian roadways
The claim is taking them from warzones into Russia. That is kidnapping.
Yeah, you want to leave them there? If there was some more evidence, or non western evidence, I would be more suspicious. Russia does have quite a large criminal underground since the soviets fell, but it seems that there are no real disappearances, just relocation.
Did you read the article? It literally includes quotes from Russian officials talking about this as a good thing. They're not even denying it.
I admit I disregarded it out of hand, due to it being western media. I was also talking about that it was some sort of abduction into a child ahem profiteering ring, but its not that at all. They admit relocating kids in russia to checks notes russia. Although I shall read it, as the claim that they are not truly orphans, and may have families still is a disturbing one.
But one source is by the mayor of Maripol, home of the Azov battalion, so I will be taking it with a lake of salt.
We also saw that before the war, a huge line of bus after bus with women and children fled to Russia before the war start. Did they count those as abduct also I wonder?
I guess so, because the source they linked is hard west aligned. and I mean HARD.
They blame the conflict and the dead parents in the donbass reigon on RUSSIAN SHELLING! I am in disgust at this article they linked as "evidence".
Its an editorial with one of those 'heartfelt stories' they make up as fanfiction for the beginning of their propaganda spiels. It is pure western propaganda, through and through
so after digging through some of the statements, Maria Lvova-Belova has talked about various cases where children had parents murdered in front of them and they do not have any extended family contact information. They have successfully worked with Ukraine on transporting families to Russia or children to Ukraine but its a shitshow. She said that children are being placed in foster homes as a preference because an orphanage would give poor outcomes for disabled and traumatized children. There was a case where they had all the children from one family but they were left behind when the parents fled west out of Ukraine, according to their information
It seems like a complete shitshow but I doubt its intentional. If they were being Nazis about it they wouldnt give a damn about kids with disabilities or trauma
So, AP omitting some information. Classic west with half truth half lie
Thats what I gathered. The west just so happens to 'mistranslate' everything into words that fit their worldview the most. 'Raise them into russians' lmao! Anything Russia does will be heralded as acts of pure satan!
Also talked about how before they started doing this kids were constantly running from bomb shelter to bomb shelter, often with only clothes on their back and no real personal affects so it was necessary to create an evacuation so that they were somewhere more stable.
Here's something she directly stated
The most touching thing is at the train station. The parents, seeing "their own," begin to cry. It is a new, joyful turn in their lives. The children are no less emotional: there is joy and worry about how everything will turn out. And seventeen-year-old Anya is worried about her grandmother, who has stayed in Shakhtarsk. We agreed that, if the relative wishes, we will help her to move closer to her granddaughters.
So in this situation she is referencing that she had to place this one girl in foster care and the grandmother is near the front lines and cannot be easily reached right now, but if the relative wants to they have a program to swap housing from Donetsk to live near blood relatives that were evacuated. Almost all the stories I see are from kids near places extremely close to the front lines which would obviously be an extremely dangerous place for kids to be returned to.
She also talks about ensuring kids have psychologists for trauma and that in order to ensure they have care they actually had to get a mandate from various governors that they have enough psychologists to handle the all the kids. Like idk, def doesnt seem like a Nazi thing. Like I'm sure shes not great being a capitalist politician and all but she does seem to be genuinely putting in a lot of legwork based on the videos
They further push this document, which President Putin signed into law, as evidence of a conspiracy, and they say the good translate version lines up https://t.me/rian_ru/165351
I got curious and I searched the law in full text lmao. My Russian abilities are gonna be stretched real thin here on legalese so just an fyi
Law amends rules for citizenship
Says 'Orphaned and disabled children left without parental care, incapcitated persons who are citizens of the DPR, LPR, or Ukraine can choose to acquire citizenship of Russia'
Those who have the right to apply are 'guardians of the child, guardian of an incapacitated person who is a citizen of Russia, DPR, LPR, or Ukraine except (paraphrasing because some words confuse me) in case of injured/incapacitated parents or guardians or people unable to currently fulfill parental duties.' An organization from Russia, DPR, LPR, Ukraine that is holding children not temporarily but permanently can also apply for the child's citizenship, temporarily is defined by parents not being available but could be expected to be available in the future, basically. A medical or social services organization from Russia, Ukraine, etc can apply for citizenship of incapacitated people so that they will have their educational and medical needs properly met.
Frankly being a dual citizen is kinda cushy (I am one) so I really dont see the problem here. It doesnt revoke Ukrainian citizenship unless a Ukrainian law doesnt allow Russians to hold Ukrainian citizenship, at which point thats on the Ukrainians for being assholes
Lol apparently this whole thing is started by a Ukrainian faction that wanted to criminalize holding a dual citizenship (at all!). This muddies the water for them which is making them throw a temper tantrum. Now you know!
They already have a law on the books that Ukrainian citizens cannot be citizens of Russia and will have their rights revoked. So they feel threatened that Russia is expanding the citizenship process. It has nothing to do with kidnapping children, they just want everyone in their country to be forced to stay there. The sensible action would be to allow dual citizens, but is Ukraine that is forcing the breaking up of families here.
From what you've written, she sounds like a good person. I'm glad this isn't some child trafficking scheme or something. The main contention is the fact that Ukraine is claiming Russia isn't actually returning the children in the vast majority of cases.
The western govt done a good job on dressing up their propaganda as some kind of “reliable news”. But after this shite show of a war, their credibility hopefully tank with this fantasy style of writing that has many loop holes, omitting info and deliberately pick and choose quote
i'll look into some of Maria Lvova-Belova statements. i can read russian
i posted it further down in the thread i am kinda a klutz not prone to putting things all in one place when translation brain is in play
them from warzones into Russia
imagine emphasizing "into" Russia and not "warzones"
"sorry kids you have to stay under active mortar fire until your parents show up"
Yeah let's trust the fascist government that's literally conducting cultural genocide against Russians
Whether or not they have parents, raising the children of war in another country or culture can be a marker of genocide, an attempt to erase the very identity of an enemy nation.
:amerikkka: :who-did-this:
