From the guest list, the show looked like it was created to have a space where left commentators of various sorts would come on and hash out ideological differences as the US left is in the wilderness post-Bernie. It would be interesting, I thought, to have a show where an ultra like Sean KB from The Antifada could explain Marxist theory on a panel with social democrats and have some kind of discussion.
It turns out that its basically just a radlib version of The Five from Fox News, where they just take turns kicking the tires on the days news.
Does anyone actually want a show like this? It seems like its trying to fill a market that doesn't exist - or maybe existed a few years ago and doesn't today. When I look around, I don't think to myself, "You know who has some understanding of the political struggle we face in this moment? This DSA-backed state legislator from NYC."
Listening to it was deeply unsettling. I don't recommend it.
Eh not all of the millions of Bernie supporters are chapos. A lot of them have moved on to worrying about getting DSA libs elected down ballot.
hot take: even though they're libs, it's probably good if dsa has more people working for material change rather than less and helping them & pushing internal narrative left is probably also good
what i'm saying is you may not be able to take the entryism out of a trot, but you can take the trotskyism out of entryism
Honestly I don't think it's a worthwhile strategy but I'm not really worried about it. Some Communists get bent out of shape by social fascism but until they're close to real power I see them as not really our allies or enemies.
This is an important point. My view on this stuff is that Communist organizations have a lot of problems with bootstrapping, and folks who agree with communist goals should just join whatever the largest and most radical organization you have that's active in your area.
In NYC that's clearly DSA, in Seattle that's socialist alternative. Both cities have PSL chapters, but they aren't especially visible. United fronts shouldn't be seen as a long term strategy, but we're so weak right now there's literally no other option.
I strongly disagree with the idea of just joining the biggest leftist group in your area if others exist. I do agree that a United Front is imperative at this point but United Front means separate but allied, not literally united.
For instance, if you live in Seattle, SAlt may be the biggest group but PSL also has a good size chapter there and I think they're doing the right stuff whereas SAlt says a lot of good things but also has wrecker tendencies because they're trots. If they're all you have in your area, then yeah go ahead and join. But if they're is a better alternative, you should join it. Sale goes for DSA and NYC.
The left needs to be united on two comorbid things right now: antifascism and antiracism. Nothing is really more important than that as we won't have a left if fascism ascends. But when it comes to long term political praxis, I think it's worth it to join smaller groups like PSL and FRSO if they actually do good work.
Edit: An example from my city is that DSA is the biggest left wing org but they do basically nothing but knock on doors for DSA candidates. PSL is very small (though in the process of doubling their local membership) but that's by design because they're a cadre party. Even with a tiny membership they've successfully organized Tenants Unions in low income housing developments. DSA will put up tables outside of JHU to let the most privileged kids in the world know their students rights while PSL is turning people in slums into Marxist-Leninists. What your org does is extremely important.
In my experience smaller orgs are totally incapable at organizing meaningfully sized events or engage in real struggles and just focus on leftist education.
This isn't bad and is necessary, but for most people looking to get their hands dirty with something, you want to join a bigger org that is actually engaged in real struggles.
Honestly, I've seen plenty of people move away from party organizing in favor of issues organizing because people want to get their hands dirty. But issues organizing does pull in a liberal direction, these bigger orgs are more capable at retaining these sorts of people.
Edit: to reply to your edit, I agree with what you've said about DSA in certain areas. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the largest org that is engaging in this real struggles like tenant organizing and union infiltration. DSA in NYC has some groups of people doing that stuff per some of my friends from when I lived there.
Read my edit to the previous comment. I know what you mean for sure. PCUSA for instance has a near perfect party line but they don't actually do anything. I get not joining them, but I think just organizing for the sake of organizing is useless. If you're organizing towards the goal of more socdems in city council, then I think it's a waste of time. It's going to vary from place to place but I think it's important to build good organizations. The last thing we need is a bunch of revolutionary energy being fed into a liberal organization where it will inevitably burn out.
I edited my post because of your edit lol:
I agree with what you’ve said about DSA in certain areas. I’m not talking about that, I’m talking about the largest org that is engaging in this real struggles like tenant organizing and union infiltration. DSA in NYC has some groups of people doing that stuff per what I've heard.
This said, I disagree with you about adding socdems/demsocs to city council. If you can get meaningfully left people who are willing to always call people out on their shit, you can make meaningful change including nationally. The key requirement is total loyalty to the movement and never acting as an independent individual. Change often starts at the state and local level (minimum wages, cheaper healthcare, free higher education, defunding police, ect).
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also drag your friends to reading groups
Isn't this essentially what Lee Carter did?
Lee Carter is a socdem, at least he is the last time I heard of him.
Lee Carter is more left than that. What he really is, is a successful version of joshua 4 congress.
I dunno
Again, I think that's just him being dumb than any sort of lack of desire to end capitalism. Hence he's just a more successful J4C.
But oof that's a bad take, tactical differences do not make a different ideology.
That's why he is on my suspicious list.
I don't know exactly what he did, but I get an impression that Lee Carter operates too much as an independent individual, rather than as a part of a local political movement.
These latest NYC DSA electeds for the most part only really do things that the chapter votes for their elected officials to do although there still is some horizontalism. In the case of Sawant in Seattle, everything she does is done with the consensus of SAlts leadership committee.
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oh absolutely not, but the wins we can make can strengthen our case & reforms can always be schools for revolution
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historically we haven't lived in a late capitalist imperial core
i'm not saying it's the only strategy, but i don't think the doomer take should be applied so cut-and-dry. do you have an alternate vision for leftism in the contemporary us?
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i don't know why you think i want to run entryism into the democratic party; i want the broad left to take a serious look at DSA for 1) networking™ and 2) direct action separate from their electoral fights
it's not, it's just a thing that we can do to find others with similar leanings as us. socdem structures aren't the solution outright, but if we can use them to fight relevant fights (helping the non-shit unions, direct action against interesting things) even as a launching off point, that's far more interesting to me than just sitting around
again you're kind of missing my point as i don't think the democratic party is worth saving in general. out of interest, were there relevant left base movements within the big european center left parties? or were they fully integrated into the party structure?
for what it's worth, alexa who is salvador allende
you may well be right, but what tells you that this revolutionary potential will be meaningfully leftwing instead of some weird melting pot of Q, fascists, and fundamentalists? yes leftwing militant action can be effective, but so can the neoliberal PR machine. hell, even the vague concept of antifa took enough hits recently. i don't see a way this can go well without organization and outreach that simply won't exist if we just sit around and wait for the crisis to deepen
What is a "chapo" and how is it different politically from just being a Bernie supporter? Are there not enough shows interviewing DSA candidates yet?
chapos are folks who are approximately 10% less lib than the average bernie supporter but believe that figure is 100%
Chapos are folks who think they are more radical than Ho Chi Mihn based purely on the dankness of their memes.
Truest comment so far lol
i've been posting hard today, glad i had a good take :heart-sickle:
I think anyone on this website thinks about leftism and anti-capitalism all the time — like it's our lens of the world. A Bernie supporter might only want healthcare and a safety net for people. Like Bernie supporters want to regulate capitalism while chapos probably don't want any capitalism
I meant people on this site and the old sub, not people on the podcast
Yea. That's what I meant too. What makes a poster on r/CTH different politically than a Bernie supporter?
We generally aren't scared of talking about communism in a good light, many of us actually want capitalism to be completely destroyed, we are very pro-gun and aren't morally opposed to violence. You won't see regular Bernie fans talking about US Imperialism or defending Assad for instance.
It's not like everyone on here is a professional revolutionary, but we generally aren't just people who want regulated Capitalism. I know real estate agents who stan Bernie and donated/volunteered for him. People that legitimately dream of opening their own real estate business, and work towards that goal lol.
I really do think there is a class component in the difference. Most people here are poor, working class or maybe labor aristocracy. Lots of highly educated, comfortable PMC types in the S4P crowd.
I agree with everything you just wrote. The question is how does the average poster to this board differ in their actual political actions than the typical Bernie supporter. There's not a communist party to be a member of, labor unions are basically all business unions, nobody is holidaying in the PRC to meet up with other communists, there's no international to speak of.
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Of course there are orgs that are nominally parties. There are not professional party members in PSL though. The PSL can't organize strike actions. It's not the hub that directs organizing. This is what is meant when talking about a party.
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It's kinda hard to have paid professional revolutionaries when you're small. They're just in the beginning stages but they're growing rapidly. They currently organize tenant unions and those campaigns have shown some benefits and made inroads work a segment of the Proletariat that the mostly white left has been unable to for decades.
I'm knocking PSL. Lots of good comrades. They are nearly solely responsible for maintaining some modicum of an antiwar movement during the Obama years. But I cannot imaging a future of a 3,000,000 member PSL. I think if we are able to build a real communist party in the US again, it will come out of a synthesis of mostly new orgs bourn out of developing material conditions. The PSL will likely have a role in that, but I don't think it will be The Party
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This website is far more tankie and anti electoralism the old sub. What made the old sub unique from /r/wayofthebern though was that chapo hated non leftists far more and was better at bullying them.
I think this is mostly a matter of timing since the Bernie ship has sailed. The change is fine with me though.
This place is materially more pro China in uncritical ways than the old sub was. That could also just be timing, but I was one of the more pro China people in some threads there for just giving critical support.
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PSL doesn't operate like the others though. It's not a mass party, it's a cadre party. You have to apply to be a member and you're expected to actually organize. The vast majority of people in a party like the Greens will never organize and most that do, do it casually.
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