yup, struggle session time

edit: no one is right, everyone is wrong :^)

edit 2: this post is actually dedicated to Amy Goodman, please stop trying to sound cool grandma

  • dayruiner [they/them]
    ·
    4 years ago

    We make shit up in English all the time, though. English is more gender neutral than English. You just took the already gender neutral pronoun they and made it apply more broadly. Spanish is literally just male and female with a default male that even a lot of cis women have been rightfully critiquing for years.

    • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
      10·
      4 years ago

      The comment was more directed at the bit I quoted. Can you even imagine people in America trying to convince regular folks of anything by saying English is a colonial language imposed on them by the dastardly Brits

      • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
        1·
        4 years ago

        we're not trying to create a framing for a propaganda campaign here, just speaking facts between comrades who should understand that pointing out Spanish is a colonial language is a simple historical fact

        • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
          3·
          4 years ago

          Sure, like English is, but this doesn't mean anything to Americans. It says something to American Hispanics because they're a minority from the US that often isn't that connected to the original culture and sees the issue through the lens of being a racial minority.

          • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
            ·
            4 years ago

            I don't even know what to make of this comment, what are you even arguing here? My point is that there is nothing about saying Spanish is a colonial language that is exclusive to Latinos in the diaspora

            • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
              2·
              4 years ago

              My point is that there is nothing about saying Spanish is a colonial language that is exclusive to Latinos in the diaspora

              Removed from context maybe, but in the context of that comment this is exactly what I'm arguing and I expect anyone from Latam to have my back on this.

                  • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Spanish settlers came and conquered the natives and created an entire political and ideological apparatus to justify their exploitation of them. Part of this was making other languages other than Spanish taboo and subject to punishment, legal or otherwise. This culture and ideology has not dissapeared in these countries and the erasure of a colonial past is part of that.

              • gay [any]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Gender neutral language in Spanish works completely different from gender neutral language in English. It's proposed to be used for words with gramatical gender (pronouns, nouns, adjectives and articles) when and only when we're talking about humans. English doesn't have gramatical gender, it doesn't change the adjective if it's feminine or masculine, English has a gender neutral third person pronoun, the articles don't have gramatical gender.

                If we wanted to adhere to English gender neutral language we would get rid of gramatical gender entirely. "La mesa alta, el pelo suelto" aren't meant to be changed for "le mese alte, le pelo suelte".

                "Los (male plural, human) chicos(male plural, human) quieren jugar a la(feminine singular, non human) pelota(feminine singular, non human)" would be changed to "Les(neutral plural) chiques(neutral plural) quieren jugar a la(feminine singular, non human) pelota(feminine singular, non human)".

                Want English gender neutrality? Here: "Les chiques quieren jugar a le pelote".

                Edit: Cursed English conjugation added

                Les chiques quiero to jugar a le pelote.

                  • gay [any]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Yes there is vosotras. Ustedes, on the other hand, only has that gender neutral form.

                    And to be spicy, Spanish people say vosotres as well .

      • dayruiner [they/them]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Yeah I see where you're coming from. I've had this argument many times and I suppose that the idea I meant to express was that Spanish colonists brought both their language and their ideas of masculinity and femininity and imposed them on people. But there isn't as much arguing over the sanctity of the English language.