every single one; when I see a shitty tel aviv influencer join the IDF, I look forward to them being exploded by heroic Hamas resistance fighters; I pray constantly for their violent death
moles providing intel to the resistance or conducting effective sabotage internally might need to be considered on a case-by-case basis
It's gonna be fun seeing this screen grabbed on Fox News
For some reason this is a controversial take here and people keep telling me the troops will join the revolution even though idf service is compulsory and everybody who signs up to serve in the larger even more genocidal army is doing it willingly.
People really fell for the "the US army is made of poor people doing what they can to survive" propaganda of the 00s.
I mean I joined the military cause I was broke and homeless. I did 5 years active duty and I'm here an committed as fuck to leftist ideals and revolution.
You're right. I'm sorry, I'm sure the work you've done after while being committed to leftist ideals has outweighed all the crimes against humanity you either committed or enabled while you were enlisted. I'm sorry for implying that the data reflects that your personal story is an outlier when it is actually the norm and we have tons of ex military out here doing the work of undoing the harm they caused.
It's really wild to see a bunch of people that theoretically understand and think with materialistic determination in mind to claim that they didn't do anything wrong by serving for years in the literal armed wing of American imperialism.
"Sure I was the literal triggerman for a genocidal empire and perpetuated a half dozen illegal wars for American hegemony but I'm on your side now, you can trust me."
We should be all set as long as somebody else doesn't swing through offering them a 14% loan on a camaro.
claim that they didn't do anything wrong
I've yet to see anyone here who was a troop claim this. It's almost always the exact opposite, where seeing (and participating in) the business end of imperialism up close was a radicalizing experience.
Ok they admit they did something wrong but think they should be forgiven and welcomed back I to the fold without people pointing out they were already convinced once to do genocide by fascists.
That clear enough you pedantic pain in the ass.
If they're aware of the fact they participated in carrying out genocidal goals for the American empire they should keep their fucking mouths shut about it and just say "I'm her to support the cause" and deal with what should be soul crushing guilt internally.
That clear enough you pedantic pain in the ass.
Lmao get the fuck out of here. It's not pedantic to point out you making shit up.
they should keep their fucking mouths shut about it and just say "I'm her to support the cause" and deal with what should be soul crushing guilt internally.
That's pretty much what they do
The dozen comments asking me to clarify my pretty clear position would disagree with you.
"But what about the doctors that treat the wounds they got from killing people, surely they're not complicit" is a pretty great example of it.
Again I've had to clarify my position of "everybody who supports the MIC is culpable" about 6 times now. So no they deffinitly will not just shut the fuck up.
You replying for a fourth time insisting they do just shut up and let other people be also not a great example.
So no they deffinitly will not just shut the fuck up.
You think everyone you're talking to in this thread was in the military?
You replying for a fourth time
Lol you think I was?
its because every revolution in history has had a military component and envisioning one for the US based on historical materialism requires working in military participation as a prerequisite.
Yeah, the military will be either:
- Neutral
- Opposed
- Supportive, or
- Split
1 and 4 are real possibilities, but a lot of folks want to foreclose any avenue for anyone who's ever been associated with the military to take part.
If we're relying on the people who have willingly and enthusiastically murdered everybody the American government has told them too without hesitation with less than zero justification for decades that doesn't speak well for the plan.
I’m not gonna pretend to know an exact number but I’d say 95%+ of modern troops never directly killed anyone and you know the sickos who did it enthusiastically sure aren’t left leaning, let alone communists.
Fuck off with the "didn't see direct combat" line
You know what the ones who didn't see direct combat were doing?
Signing the papers that said the unarmed 13 year old who got canoe'd was deffinitly an enemy combatant and figuring out the logistics of how to get bullets from the factory to an innocent persons head halfway around the world as efficiently as possible.
By this thinking anybody who works in any industry that contracts with the US military is a murderer. The workers who make bullets in a factory, the truck drivers who ship them, people who provide mental health services, cooks who serve them meals etc.
Yup fully agreed.
Well except trying to lump in people who provide counseling after the fact that's a pretty obvious bullshit false equivalency but I suspect you know you were reaching for that example.
It's why when I graduated I took a a job designing water and wastewater systems for small communities instead of a job that paid three times as much where I'd design bombs or do that exact kind of logistics. Because I have a functioning set of morals and not facilitating the MIC was a priority to me.
This is why it's frustrating as somebody whonwas faced with the choice and actively worked to make choices to not be complicit in the imperial war machine pretty fucking annoying to have people insist there's no way it can be avoided.
Apply this same logic to the pretty much universally agreed on fact that nobody should support Biden.
If you can make excuses for the people who do the shooting, make the bullets, facilitate the logistics, or even interact with people in the military what's your problem with Biden? Probablly that he's the one causing all this to happen right? Same applies to everybody literally working every day to make it possible.
Well except trying to lump in people who provide counseling after the fact that's a pretty obvious bullshit false equivalency but I suspect you know you were reaching for that example.
Not really, there are psychiatrists, counselors, etc who are in the military doing the same job they would outside the military. Are they more complicit than the contracted workers?
Is their work facilitating the soldiers being able to murder people sooner?
If so than yes, they are more complicit than psychologists who don't get soldiers cleared to get back on the frontlines asap.
It is increasingly hilarious to watch you attempt to make this out to be a complicated moral issue.
Here's a handy flow chart.
Does their work enable current active duty service members to more quickly and easily kill innocent people?
Yes --> they are bad
No --> they are not bad
Hell, let's turn it around and go back to the current thread were in.
So does all this mean that actually you can't criticize the idf because everybody is equally culpable for what's going on in Gaza and the idf is going to be the vanguard of Palestinian liberation any day now?
Expecting the American MIC to be instramental to the socialist revolution in this country sure does feel an awful lot like when democrats keep convincing themselves lifelong republican removed like muller comey and garland are going to fight their battles for them and take down a sitting republican president.
Or like how they whitewashed Bush because he gave Michelle Obama a piece of candy one time.
Sweet fucking christ this really isn't fucking difficult. Yes
Is their work facilitating the soldiers being able to murder people sooner?
If so than yes, they are more complicit than doctors who don't get soldiers cleared to get back on the frontlines asap.
It is increasingly hilarious to watch you attempt to make this out to be a complicated moral issue.
Here's a handy flow chart.
Does their work enable current active duty service members to more quickly and easily kill innocent people?
Yes --> they are bad
No --> they are not bad
Was that supposed to be a gotcha? Like I said it's increasingly hilarious to watch people try to make this complicated.
The soldiers deserve the injuries they receive (and more) as a result of being a genocidal imperialist.
Please reference the flow chart I have already provided.
Again, yes I'm literally not sure why anybody is having a hard time with this.
For the third fucking consecutive time please refer to this handy flow chart I have already provided.
Does their work enable current active duty service members to more quickly and easily kill innocent people?
Yes --> they are bad
No --> they are not bad
Let's do a little exercise since apparently you need more practice.
Answer the first question, and then try to follow this super complicated flow chart and tell me what answer you get instead of literally just asking me to walk you through it for various specific examples.
You really going to make me explain to you for a fourth time the difference between psychiatrists who dont facilitate troops returning to active duty and those that do?
And your going to follow that up with accusing me of not having reading comprehension?
Bold fucking move cotton.
This is just defeatist. It's not theoretically sound either, as some American living out of their car selling their labor to scrape by is by any sensible definition proletarian.
They have a proletariat, they just aren't white
Edit: (lmao saying they like I'm not part of it)
If you turn the screws on the death machine, you deserve death yourself. This isn't hard to understand, I cannot conceive of why you would defend people who are actively enabling the war machine. Do you fucking work for raytheon or something?
No I’m just wondering where you draw the line. I pay taxes that go towards building these bombs, is every American taxpayer therefore a genocide enabler? Obviously this is a straw man, but where do we draw the line of who is complicit or not?
Personally, my personal policy has always been don't directly tighten the bolts by working for a company that does. I understand that we can't go around holding a trial for the inventor of the screw because they're used in everything, not just weaponry. But I can pretty comfortably say, anyone who works directly for the US military and accompanying industrial complex deserves no forgiveness. The engineers and workers at raytheon and northrop grumman etc are scum. I have a friend who found out their seemingly normal company was making systems for weaponry and they immediately quite. I think they're cool for walking away the moment they found out.
Past that is very case by case basis.
Yeah that is really principled and cool of them. I understand if my playing devil’s advocate comes off as genocide-defending, that’s really not my intention.
I just don’t want people getting carried away in the same kind of rhetoric being used by the Israelis as an excuse to kill all Palestinians because some of them are Hamas.
Not that being a freedom fighter is the same as being genocidal, it’s just the rhetoric Israel uses to justify their crimes.
Edit: This mostly applies to the other commenter I was talking to
I’ll set down how the baby killer rhetorical device is an ultra leftist boondoggle for the time being.
States need militaries. Without force, a state cannot defend its sovereignty. Will you only support an American revolution that brings its own parallel military structure along and includes no former members of the American military?
Even if I were to concede the point you just made, which I won’t, it requires foreclosing on any revolution in the imperial core. That may or may not be a foregone conclusion but it ain’t exactly the kind of thing you can build a polemic or propaganda machine around.
I think that excluding people that try to say they didn't do anything wrong when they were the literal armed guard for American inperialism is a good way to make sure you're movement isn't filled with fascists with no political knowledge.
You realize this is the exact argument liberals make when they explain why it's a good thing we're giving self avowed nazis unlimited unrestricted weapons in Ukraine right?
"If theyre helping us fight our enemies who cares what their beliefs are." - somebody 6 months from being shot in the back of the head
People should be given a chance to grow and change(not where it can harm others), I do believe redmeption is possible, and that humanity is not something you can loose.
There's a real contradiction between the prison abolitionist line of thinking and the "kill everyone remotely associated with imperialism" one.
"You claim to not want to imprison innocent people yet you believe that people who committed war crimes should be punished. Interesting. I am very intelligent"
Uh yeah that's actually a totally incoherent set of beliefs
If someone thinks prison is beyond the pale for any crime, but also believes that even an association with war crimes is worth the death penalty, they need to put a little more thought into it.
Lmao I don't think there's anybody who thinks the goal of prison abolition is to not have any form of punishment for crimes and if they do they're an unrealistic idealist. I think it's more about not keeping people in prison for decades for minor crimes and using them as slave labor the entire time. If there are I certainly am not one and never claimed to be so not sure why this is supposed to be some kind of gotcha.
This is like people who say that defund the police is bad because how are you going to have a society without first responders.
I don't think there's anybody who thinks the goal of prison abolition is to not have any form of punishment
I didn't say that, I said "If someone thinks prison is beyond the pale for any crime." Those people are out there, I've talked with them, and that's what abolition means.
I certainly am not one and never claimed to be
I didn't respond to you, you responded to me
So then you disagree with the original statement of the post that all idf soldiers are guilty?
Are you aware of human history? if you can't lose your humanity what happened to the nazis that were lining people like me and the people I care about up at the edge of a mass grave.
How about the people on the edge of the mass grave? What happened to their humanity when they were shot in the back of the fucking head for opposing fascism.
This "all people are deserving of redemption" is sure rubbing right up against the tolerance paradox.
They get a chance, outside of their fascist society, what they do with it is their business. It's not guaranteed, it requires the work from them. But they are still fundamentally human, denying others humanity is never right. You can possibly be unworthy, but you can't stop being human. We are all people, from the day we are born, to the day that we die. Saying that others can be inherently lesser than me is something I refuse to do.
Every human live lost to hate is an unimaginable waste, each of these warcriminals could have been a good person,they aren't, of course. But in a better world, they could have been.
It is not, and never was, about tolerating their actions and believes, be more careful when reading before becoming needlesly aggressive, please.
People say this a lot, but the fact that the former US troops here on Hexbear haven't been driven off makes me wonder about the depths of their conviction.
I'd hope their conviction isn't real, because wishcasting mass death like this (1) is a purely aesthetic choice that does nothing but look unhinged and (2) is far in excess of even the most punitive measures suggested after WWII.
"We're going to kill every one of you if we win" makes winning harder, not easier.
"We're going to kill every one of you if we win" makes winning harder, not easier.
This is hexbears stated position on white people and straight people, not sure why there's more of a carve out for people who willingly signed up to murder people for Haliburton.
And I'm not trying to play victim for white or straight people, ùjust like there's a bunch of former troops who don't say anything because they know it's not directed at them because they're already here, always just thought it was strange that the site is more defensivee of people who actively made a choice than people who didn't have a say in their situation.
This place doesn't have stated positions, and genocide sure isn't one of them, unless we've gone off the deep end of people taking edgy jokes seriously.
I mean the "I am not joking or being hyperbolic, I literally will never trust white people even if they're active in progressive orgs and I unironically passionately hate straight people" posts are deffinitly edgy but they're going out of their way to be pretty clear they aren't joking.
No one on this site sincerely hates all white people or all straight people, I guarantee their real feelings are more nuanced than that. People make those blunt statements out of frustration and exhaustion, and hexbear should be a safe place to vent like that.
always just thought it was strange that the site is more defensivee of people who actively made a choice than people who didn't have a say in their situation.
It's for the same reason that the guy lost his mind at the end of The Telltale Heart.
Because we're supposed to be sympathetic they feel bad about choosing to murder people?
Not sure if you're joking, so I'll elaborate my point.
Most people on this site live in the imperial core, a lot of them are American, and while most probably were never in the military, there's a good chance they have friends or loved ones who were. It's easy for such people to brush off something like "kill all whites" because the notion that someone deserves to be punished for something they had no control over (their genetics) is patently absurd, but "kill all current and former American soldiers" hits a bit different because, even if it's not meant as a literal statement of policy, anyone who's a regular on this site knows the sheer depths of evil that imperial core armies are responsible for, knows that joining such institutions means being complicit on some level in their crimes, and so they can't help but suspect at least a little bit that it really is what they deserve.
It's also easier to ignore the white shit because we all know a fuckload of white peeps, but if you mention veterans then individuals pop up.
the fact that the former US troops here on Hexbear haven't been driven off
Well if history is anything to go by, they'll slink off under cover of darkness, leaving their allies to be overrun by the Taliban.
every time i see one of those IDF thirst trap tiktoks i straight up feel guilty for being attracted to women
No more "clean IOF myth", every single one is complicit in genocide.
Edit: tho a better idea would be forced labour, can't let their labour-power go to waste when it could be used to develop productive forces. But i ain't gonna complain when they get smoked by violent resistance members.
Bloodlust leads to war crimes.
Leftists would do well to remember to retain and value their humanity. It should be what separates us from them. This isn't a call for pacifism, btw. It's a call to not lose yourself in hate and dehumanization.
Killing all the enemy troops sounds like a great strategy
You know what happens when you execute/kill every single enemy? They don't surrender. They fight to their deaths. They fight with all their strength.
You take prisoners to make your victory easier, not to be a good guy.
I'm being hyperbolic. It's only about 80 percent that deserve the wall.
https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/
These people can not be rehabilitated. It's unfortunate but it's true.
What do people do if their choices are fight or die? They fight.
If you want to end a war as soon as possible, you can't tell the enemy you're going to kill them all once you win.
Sure, lie to them and then round them up and put them to the wall - Mao style
When did Mao do that?
With landlords, for instance, my understanding is he basically put their fate in the hands of their local communities. That famously resulted in revolutionary land redistribution, but punishments beyond that varied based on local conditions, with plenty of landlords losing little beyond their lands and authority.
1000 flowers campaign. Promises to let the reactionaries have free speech, pinpointed them all and then executed/jailed them
Ah. We're getting pretty far from analogous facts with that, and whether it was an intentional strategy to flush out reactionaries is debated.
Think about how much better the world would be if every single Nazi was executed
Service is compulsory in Israel. Every single person who doesn't have an specific exemption has to serve.
90% of people who ask for an exemption are denied. If you don't serve, you can be thrown in military prison. Usually this lasts for 90 days. You'll also be dishonorable discharged which can affect employment opportunities.
if the taylor swift fake news account can refuse service, so can everyone
If you think the average 18 year old who has been indoctrinated since birth threatened with jail and loss of employment deserves death, then you're just not serious.
Not even Mao or Stalin treated enemy soldiers as harshly as this.
Not even Mao or Stalin treated enemy soldiers as harshly as this.
And now the world is run by Nazis. Thank you for pointing out their failures.
Imagine blaming the current world on Mao and Stalin not executing low-level conscripts instead of the US literally importing and supporting Nazi leadership and their programs.
Not a hint of materialism on Hexbear is there.
I mean here you are with some materialism on hexbear, so thanks!
Fascism isn't genetic, it's a result of material conditions. We have fascism today not because we didn't execute every Nazi in 1945, but because today's "capitalism in decay" conditions are similar to those of a century ago.
I wasn't saying it was genetic. I think my argument must've been unclear because I'm getting a lot of responses like this. I was saying those survivors set the groundwork for anti communism of today.
Executing enemy soldiers instead of imprisoning them is not a winning tactic comrade.
Referencing Stalin and Mao like the another poster did, the right way is put the officers and known participants on trial, the rank and file people get reeducation or long imprisonment if they are true believers in the genocide machine. Don’t make martyrs all the time.
me when i commit genocide but its ok because i was a hecking indoctrinated 18 year old. Lets be clear i dont think these people should be executed, but they are criminals that need to be dealt with approriately, i imagine lifelong labour camp punishment seems fine, that way they can pay back and help rebuild the lives they destroyed. But the 18 year old conscripts shooting people in the back of head while handcuffed and throwing them in a mass grave, and then posting it on tiktok, are not redeemable cause of indoctrination
Sorry about the poor nazi conscripts who only spent 18 years in the third reich, not nearly enough time to realize it's a bad place
Dishonorable discharged from the IDF should look great on a resume anywhere not genocidal in the world
Even these fellas? https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1505937747709767683
https://www.jns.org/israel-news/idf/23/7/23/304719/
Google "IDF down syndrome" you will get way too many pictures of IOF members with down syndrome, and a video of a Palestinian with down syndrome getting his neck beaten by IOF members, truly the scummiest of the world
This is basically a cum town bit.
Nick: What if a guy with down syndrome was a war criminal?
Stav cackles
Adam: like if Goebbels had down syndrome?
Nick: no like if a regular guy with down syndrome joins the military and they immediately put him in a position to do war crimes
Stav, laughing: I like the implication that every military just has a war crimes division
Nick: well, what are they gonna do? NOT commit war crimes?
Adam: I don't see how that would be beneficial; to have a guy with down syndrome in there.
Nick: think about it, if a regular guy did a drone strike on a school bus... Well, he'd probably get away with it. But if a guy with down syndrome did it, he'd probably get away with it AND the people on Twitter aren't allowed to criticize it.
Stav: oh I thought you were going on a different direction, like Lenny [sic] from Mice and Men
Nick: no, this way they'd be immune to prosecution AND criticism. Its the perfect system
It was a podcast hosted by 3 comedians who are friends with the Chapo Trap House and TrueAnon hosts, incl. Amber's then housemate and former president of the DSA Nick Mullen.
Its basically 3 guys riffing on the dumb ideas that pop up in their heads like "what if the actor Michael Douglas was gay?" or "what if the crab from The Little Mermaid was horny?" or similar extremely stupid premises.
IDF is whipping up their own personal
MacNamaras 100,000and uhI'm pissed
terrible struggle session, next time you want to vent your anger in this way do it in a journal or something don't make it our problem
bunch of fuckin' libs in this thread.
it's just a bunch of words on a screen comrade nobody here is gonna be executing anyone jfc
edit: they're concern trolling, aren't they?
You're right, this sort of fantasizing is pure aesthetics.
What people are pushing back on is the idea that fantasizing about mass killings is a good aesthetic choice. It's pretty online.
The folks getting heated here are the ones doubling and tripling down on how many people they want to kill.
It's understandable -- participating in genocide is worth killing someone, and most people here are largely powerless to do anything about it -- but getting really into the fantasy leads to weird places.
yeah, this isn't really a healthy way to vent your anger about this
Having known Israelis who didn't serve, there are options. Of course, to get conscientious objector status, you can't let them trick you with the "would you kill a nazi" question like they did the Taylor swift fan account.
That Taylor swift fan account was so real for going to prison rather than serving the IOF
I love all you folx but I'm gonna be honest here. This is just where I go to shitpost, and occasionally get a little too sincere when I briefly forget where I am.
It's not where I go to discuss tactics or nuance.
I'm literally stunned.
