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I fucking hate the new wave of converted Christians. There's a specific subset who prey on incels, young men unhappy with their lives. It starts with personal responsibility: you can't get a girlfriend and are unhappy because you are a low value male, you are weak, you reject god and indulge in sinful things like porn and video games. Then it's go to the gym, worship god, stay away from ungodly people (who just so happen to be minorities, especially LGBTQ). You get all this crusader aesthetic, fucking phonk sigma Jesus edits right next to Patrick Bateman and homelander. A few more stages and they're full on fascists in layers upon layers of irony, calling you a d*generate godless heathen from behind their wojaks and Chad comics
fucking phonk sigma Jesus edits right next to Patrick Bateman and homelander
I'm too online man I shouldn't know what this means
new wave of converted Christians.
a specific subset who prey on incels, young men unhappy with their lives.
This has been consistent for the entire history of Christianity.
at least in the olden times the church would find some incel and just turn them into a monk and stick them in a tower in the middle of nowhere. now they just turn into violent fascists
gaaaang shit
every socialist state has it for a reason
I'm not anti-theist, I'm just anti-abrahamic religions. They kinda fucking suck. Jesus and Mohammed were based occasionally but only occasionally.
Comrade, I think you should be more broadly anti-theist. The evils committed by Abrahamic religions have the mirror images in basically every religion that got tied into governance or power structures more generally. I don't think there's any way to argue Christians are indicted due to connections with feudalism and capitalism that Hinduism isn't with the caste system of India. Shintoism was just as central to Japanese colinization of Asia as Christianity was to conquest of the Americas. Buddhism in Tibet was used to enforce an ethno-state just like Judaism is in Israel.
Yeah most religions probably do suck, you're right, I've singled out abrahamic ones because those are the only ones I'm knowledgeable about.
That makes sense, start with what you know, but I think it's important to really try and learn about an issue outside of your personal experience before trying to take a real principled stand on it.
I think that sort of argument is a little reductive. It isn't hard to find people of any belief system doing bad things, but if that's all it takes, then someone could point to like the Black Hammer cult as a reason to dismiss communism, and that's obviously absurd, but that's where having a more nuanced look at various belief systems is necessary in order to engage with them and criticize them effectively.
Is it rational to dismiss an idea because people who believe in it have done bad things? Not inherently. When people look at religion, there's this assumption that belief or membership in the religion is supposed to be inherently edifying, supposed to make you a better person - but that assumption doesn't hold true for all religions. Many traditional folk religions, like Shinto, for example, are basically just describing the world and the various creatures and spirits that supposedly inhabit it, and describing what you can do to avoid invoking their wrath. Likewise, an idea isn't necessarily bad or wrong just because it is used in a bad way. Atheism functions as a perfect example of that, actually - we saw how Atheism was used as a tool to breed Islamophobia to justify US imperialism, but that doesn't prove that Atheism is wrong.
That's not to say that these belief systems cannot or should not be criticized, but it's important to understand what claims they make and don't make in order to make meaningful and effective criticisms.
communism
An economic system that has observable real world results is not comparable to belief in invisible magic people.
Is it rational to dismiss an idea because people who believe in it have done bad things?
It's not rational to give any weight to an idea for which no evidence exists and for which the basic premises would require severe deviations from the observable physical laws of the universe.
Shinto
State Shinto was one of the foundations of Imperial Japanese fascism. There are lots of Buddhist fascists, too. The list of religions that haven't been used as a justification to murder people is really short. The idea that some religions are "harmless" because they seem quaint or have a personable façade is not well grounded in history.
that doesn’t prove that Atheism is wrong.
Atheism isn't right or wrong. It's not a belief system. It's simply a recognition that there is no evidence of magic and no reason to treat the suggestion that there is seriously.
I already made the point that an idea being weaponized for bad purposes doesn't disprove it. We could imagine a world where a state reacts to flat-earthers by executing their entire bloodline, for example, but that wouldn't make the earth any less round. It would warrant a critical examination of the round-earthers' beliefs, but we would still have to establish a logical connection for how believing in a round earth would cause someone to be more prone to doing stuff like that.
Shinto
The only thing I said about Shinto is that it doesn't claim to make you a good person. That doesn't mean that I consider it "harmless" or "quaint." As I said, "That’s not to say that these belief systems cannot or should not be criticized."
Referencing the point I made above, we can easily connect Shinto to Japanese imperialism by pointing out the belief in the emperor's divinity. However, there's the question of, is imperial divinity an inherent aspect of Shinto? Traditionally, not really - poor farmers in feudal Japan barely knew who the emperor even was, and nowadays the emperor has explicitly denied being divine, but Shinto still exists. Does a widespread belief in mythological creatures make it easier for fascism to take root? Maybe, but then, fascism took root in Germany without such a belief (though the Nazis loved their mythology, tbf). It might be worthwhile to study how Shinto evolved, to see when and how it acquired a fascist character, and how it changed after WWII, in order to understand how fascism can make use of various belief systems and how those belief systems change in respone to fascism. Not only to better critique Shinto, but also to gain a better understanding of how fascists gain power.
My point is not to defend Shinto, which I have no investment in and I will happily agree is nonsense and bad, but to say that it's better to study and understand beliefs first, and then provide a more nuanced critique, rather than painting things with broad generalizations that are more relevant to the belief systems that you're more familiar with.
Atheism isn’t right or wrong. It’s not a belief system. It’s simply a recognition that there is no evidence of magic and no reason to treat the suggestion that there is seriously.
Atheism isn't a belief system, it's neither right or wrong, it's just the correct set of beliefs that magic isn't real? Is there a difference between a set of beliefs and a belief system? Is there a difference between being "right or wrong" vs being supported or unsupported by reason and evidence? I don't understand what you mean at all.
I personally am a Catholic, I don't hold an anti-theist position. I just wanted to point out to space_comerad that they were really not thinking through their position, there's nothing unique to Abrahamic faiths in their failures. If the criticism of Christianity is that it has been used to oppress people, then that critique must be held to every one of these faiths.
I personally am a Catholic,
uhh you know about the thing, right ?
That's understandable. My genuine take is that belief in a benevolent higher power is an insult to the countless people suffering every day that will never get reprieve and eventually die after a life of suffering
(but all of that said I'm not actually into the idea of stopping people from being religious)
Lots of those suffering people find solace in such ideas whether we like it or not. It can't be all bad.
It can be bad if that faith that help is on the way is entirely misplaced. No amount of prayer will lift someone from the conditions that led to their suffering
Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, the hadith outlines the story of a Bedouin man who was leaving his camel without tying it. The Prophet (PBUH) asked him “Why don’t you tie down your camel?” The Bedouin answered, “I put my trust in Allah.” The Prophet then replied, “Tie your camel first, and then put your trust in Allah.”
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
Kinda disagree with Marx on that one. I think religion is here to stay for a while even after achieving communism, it's gonna become much less important for sure but the concept isn't going anywhere as long as there are still unanswered questions in science.
It's really sicko shit. "Just world" is one of the most harmful beliefs in history.
Honestly the older I get the more my feelings of annoyance start to extend to astrology and crystals and wicca, etc. Like with that neo-spirituality stuff you don't even have the excuse of being indoctrinated into it, you willingly sold your soul to a chunk of quartz
It's very uncomfortable finding yourself in a situation where people are treating magic as a serious topic. Your options are basically "dissemble to keep the peace" or "admit that you think the whole thing is absurd and you consider the rest of the company gullible and a little pathetic." At least with casual discussions of astrology you can just ask people about their lives without actually engaging with the magic component. When people start talking about "manifesting" shit I turn green and leave the room.
God is real and I am building a sandwich big enough that he'll choke on it.
Nurgle is definitely real, how else is covid winning so hard complete with cultists (antivaxx/anti lockdown people) :think-mark:
Best case scenario I'm getting dragged into some supernatural dickhead's social order, worst case scenario i'm getting dragged into a bunch of grifters using some supernatural dickhead as a hand puppet's social order, and i don't really want either. The (very convenient for them) threat of eternal punishment be damned, only way i'm doing this is my way
That's a big clue that religion in itself isn't the primary issue. These people are reactionaries built by their conditions.
I know multiple people who have become Christians after going further right in their political beliefs. It’s painful
Lmao, imagine choosing the lamest religion. At least go steal some dead religion like the filo nordic nerds
Sorry, my religion requires me to hang christian colonizers from a tree while we have big orgy festival :gigachad:
The weirdest ones do go full Varg paganism or Order of Seven Angles or whatever that insane neo-nazi cell was satanism, however most of them understand that Conan the Barbarian or WH40k Chaos Cultist larping is going to be a hard sell in the West where Christianity is baked into the culture
AFAIK the Greek neo-nazi Golden Dawn org started out as Hellenic neopagans but switched to defending Orthodox Christian values because your average reactionary :meemaw: and :grillman: doesn't want to hail Zeus
They are also just massive racists who are trying to circle their wagons around "western civilizations" aesthetics.
Did American society wind up in a repeat of the 80s Satanic panic because Muslims stopped being the primary bogeyman? I've always believed reddit atheists were a thing in that era due to 9/11 and the Iraq War. It was an easy way for liberals to wrap themselves up in war hawk beliefs, by painting a contrast between their imaginary progressive tolerant western society and imaginary scary Muslims.
I remember their focus changing around 2014, the outspoken atheists became more concerned with the supposed SJW menace and they have been ever since. Now they believe the same things as a medieval peasant, that there are nefarious lurking demons who are tricking people into getting horny in incorrect ways.
During the 80s-00s iteration of the Satanic Panic the average young male with a Redditoid skull shape felt annoyed and threatened by religious right-wingers going after media they liked, ie music, movies, comic books, video games and tabletop RPGs.
In the past decade they've become more worried that purple-haired trans feminists will take Zero Suit Samus away
It never ended, it's just gotten louder as a reaction to people not being miserable little fascist shitheads in public.
Not to be a brainlet, but how much of this is chan culture becoming mainstream? /pol/ lies and will tell you that it lies, but for millions of people, it is a reliable news source.
For millions of people, they're reading /pol/ four or five layers away from the source. They're not reading chan culture directly, they're reading reactionary conspiracy Facebook groups that repackage /pol/ threads into a meme of a crying blue haired woman labeled "globalist."
The Evangelicals were always there, the whole time. Bush wasn't shy about talking about god and crusades and shit. The loud anti-Islamic psuedointellectuals were just politically useful at the time so they got a lot of air play. Remember Terry Schiavo and the shitfit about turning off the life support of a brain dead person with no chance of recovery? All driven by Evangelicals during the critical early years of the GWOT. If you lived outside major democratic cities they were just as omnipresent, violent, and oppressive as they are now.
Kinda sad and pathetic that a lot of early internet atheist become right wingers just because of "zomg feminists want to take away my booba armor!" And now the internet is infested with religious right wing asshats.
I miss when being a right wing Christian was widely regarded as lame in internet now they are praised as "anti-establishment" BS.
Somehow I understand perfectly what those words mean, but I swear by Allah that I wished I was Jared 19 whenever they come across my eyes.
Propaganda works. Rightists turned anti-religious sentiment to just focus on Islam, and then getting mad at refugees isn't that much further, then being all great replacement isn't that much farther from that. Doesn't change the initial fact that religions do a lot of fucked things but rabbit holes of ideology are a thing
STOP USING HIM TO JUSTIFY YOURE WEIRD FASHY BS!!!
My brother in Christ, that is the whole point.
They do make it really hard not to go back to edgy atheist phase. I think I've settled on thinking organized religion is bad and only breeds dogma. Personal/Communal faith is probably much more healthy.
Personal/Communal faith is probably much more healthy.
More healthy, sure, in the way that chopping off a finger is more healthy than chopping off a hand. Magic isn't real, folks, time to move on.
I know some really cool religious people who are just as far left as me, so I don't want to go so far as to straight up say "religion bad!" even if, tbh, that's what my gut tells me. Should be okay to believe whatever you want about the big questions as long as you don't use it to fuck up society.
There are plenty of cool religious people, but that doesn't make religion any less bad.
Should be okay to believe whatever you want about the big questions as long as you don’t use it to fuck up society.
It is only natural for a belief in magic to translate into a belief in all kinds of other harmful stuff. It should not be socially acceptable to disagree with the basic facts of reality. We should all start from the same position that reality is real.
It should not be socially acceptable to disagree with the basic facts of reality.
YES
Yeah religious people derive their morals from the idea that a magic person says what is good and bad to do. I derive mine from the fact I am a human with empathy for other humans.
ive come all the way around we need religion organized but under the thumb of secular democratic institutions. fuckin party-approved priests lets go full USSR
I can't decide about organised religion, but I know that religious institutions are just terrible for society
"It's da jooz! It's da jooz!"
How am I supposed to believe that when Congress is disproportionately Christian, SCOTUS has a solid conservative Christian majority, and every president has been Christian? Hell, Jews are underrepresented as cops even in fucking NEW YORK, but law enforcement is directly told to discriminate against black and brown people. (No not making this up).
Do they actually believe this, or do they just want it to be true that badly? Oh, you mean I am born special for being a white guy and as such I deserve special treatment? Sign me fuck up, now I can feel good about myself without lifting a finger!
Yeah, as you can see I can go full reddit atheist as well. At this point: let the fedoras tip, because we need them to come back.
The fact that few jews are in positions of power in the US is evidence that the secret jews who control the world are smart enough to hide themselves! :so-true:
ah the jews watch dragon ball Z. i see they are a people of culture
i am jesus's favorite lady, this means i can decapitate nonbelievers and eat the flesh of the transgendered 😋
Same here. I hate this shit. Try to have nuance and you end up punished for it by the total freaks anyways
people who don't enjoy QAnon/JPB are the 2020 equivalent to the 2010 le reddit atheists.
Honestly I think the State Atheism angle is one of the main things preventing a shitload of the third world (peripheral countries?) from moving further left. As a somewhat religious person myself, I'd much rathr that the left take the same position as the indonesian communist party did, which is that belief in god is a material fact for a lot of people, and either you work around it and still organize with them, or you never get anything going.
