Oh, the Steven Universe fandom was feral. I was discouraged from ever trying the show entirely because of that hostility, so loud and fierce that I picked it up without even trying in remote parts of the internet.
It is true that there's "woke" stuff out there that isn't just garbage with woke paint on it. And that's good. :capitalist-woke: :farquaad-point:
I still like Steven Universe for the most part, I just refuse to engage with the fandom
Still honestly wish Steven Universe would do an official crossover with Dragon Ball Super, having the Steven Universe cast show up as one of the other teams in the next multiverse tournament would be perfect
I liked Steven Universe but the imperialist/fash apologia of the show threw me for a wild minute. At least the Owl House is better by portraying the witch hating puritan villain straight up evil and shitty (not needing forgiveness). I really enjoy media that admits "you know what bash the fash/imperialist it's good fuckin praxis y'all".
For all I know Steven Universe is very good, but I have stayed away because of how loud and toxic that fandom was, even to a casual observer like myself. The ideology behind some highly sus moments in the plot also bother me after I read a little about it, such as (obvious spoiler alert)
spoiler
the fact that the genocidal crystal people are superficially "forgiven" and all is well after all the death and destruction they already inflicted.
I've never understood that criticism. The Gems weren't really genocidal or imperialistic. Both of those terms imply the act as "targeted", at least in my mind(less so imperialism but I digress) . They're a galactic alien force bent on extracting every resource they find, and barely even acknowledge other life being so far removed. I'm vegan but even I can't prevent or spare thoughts for life I destroy just by existing and walking down the street, which is what I'd somewhat compare it to. When finally confronted by a force that could match them and share a different morality they showed a willingness to change and learn. Are we supposed to punish people for wanting to change who, I reiterate, had an alien morality? That seems like a lot more interesting topic to handle.
Also real world answer, the show was canceled way too early so who knows how they would have handled "rehabilitation" given proper time.
Yeah I avoid fandoms in a similar manner to live idol worship. I watched and talked about it with friends but that was kinda it. The show is exceedingly good at breaking down issues of emotional trauma, relationship boundaries, inter generational issues, PTSD, stress, burnout, and mental health in a way that is great for kids (prolly was part of the start of "kids shows that didnt talk down to kids about serious shit"). The overarching plot of the imperialist murder gems though could have used some rewrites in the conclusion.
When it turns out your aunts and grandma are gem Hitlers it gets kinda weird ngl comrade, again that's my negative point for the show yet also my positives points on it also stand (and I think are worthwhile in making emotionally communicative pieces of media). Also you can drop the anger posting this aint :reddit-logo: we can agree to disagree here without malding too much.
Redemption arcs aren't bad (reddit is just filled with absolutist shitheads), I just think they have to be careful in how they use them (since the audience is commonly children to these types of "redeeming the villain" arcs). For a show like SU that built up a such a huge villain like the Gem Empire it was honestly weird to see them turn it into a family drama of generational strife and misunderstanding, i.e. I feel this is a lib style of the show alongside the treatment of Bismuth as you pointed out. Then again it's weird having a show that's legit set during a lull period in which a revolutionary force got more or less killed/PTSD bombed by a nuke and the evil empire has continued to blow up and exploit planets as colonies. It could be they rushed it, or didn't know how to properly conclude it once the set up was done on Homeworld. The show may have been better off set up in a higher age bracket but then again that stuff is never greenlit by studios so what was made was already pretty amazing by the standards of children's entertainment at the time.
ON THIS SITE there were people who’d basically threaten to cut you if you didn’t like The Last Jedi for Christs sake.
I remember that. The only treat defended more fiercely than TLJ on Hexbear was Gambo, and to some extent Richard and Mortimer.
I hated that hours long gotcha game and I hated Rian Johnson's smug asshole attitude both in and out of the movie, but that said, I finally saw Glass Onion and if Knives Out was anything like it, maybe his work is tolerable to me when it sticks with murder mysteries.
I could list what I was called, but yes, as far as I can remember, regressive wasn't one of them.
The short list I can remember off the top of my head regarding what I was called for criticizing that show was that I was a joyless scold, that I was thin skinned and delicate and easily offended, that I was mentally ill, that I wanted all fiction to be morality plays, and (not kidding about this one, even if it's a whopper) that I was a fascist bolshevik kangaroo court judge dictating morality.
Also no offense you can be a bit of a “scold” sometimes. I’d just say that not necessarily a bad thing, maybe just own it.
I do own that one. I do take some moral stands and stand by them, primarily because I feel like someone has to when it's so in vogue to be atomized and permissive about everything except showing care or concern about something, or expressing that society should be improved somewhat. :edgeworth-shrug:
IDK if YOU’RE personally guilty of this since I don’t usually keep track of user names but I have encountered people on this site where it feels like this is essentially what they want, they don’t out loud say it but surveying all of their media takes it just seems like the only conclusion of their logic.
I like some pretty dark stuff sometimes, like Moral Orel. I consider that one to be a masterpiece and it's a direct criticism of an actual morality play of a show. It has heart and sincerity and doesn't revel in cruelty and suffering the way some other shows do, though. There's an air of sympathy instead of spectacle throughout the suffering and misery presented, though the later seasons become less of a comedy and more a story of grim resilience and existential coping.
I don't need everything I enjoy to be a "morality play," not at all, though I take no pleasure from edginess for edginess' sake, cheap shock humor gimmicks that age badly, or grimdark gore/sexual violence spectacles presented for entertainment purposes while masquerading as "historical accuracy" as if full frontal titillation and making a spectacle of the victim is the only way to be that way.
Another example of grim done right is "Come and See." I don't think it'd be improved if Gambo's "historical accuracy" emphasis was put on it and the sexual violence victim in one notorious scene was focused on during the atrocity with titillating camera angles and gratuitous sensationalist emphasis, or if such a scene was repeated a few more times over and over throughout the run time while presented in such a way.
I know you weren't. I was just clarifying my position and where I stand.
I can't speak for everyone here. In fact, some banned people sometimes went further than I did, maybe even to the point of parody or deliberate exaggeration.
I did say that modern makers of satire should be more than aware by now that a lot of people are statistically likely to miss the satire and to take whatever's being satirized at face value, as what notoriously happened with Verhoven's Starship Troopers film, which was intended to dunk on Heinlein's novel (which Verhoven expressed personal dislike for, and didn't even finish reading), and the director himself expressed frustration and regret about how too many audience members took the film.
I didn't say it can't be done, but that at this point it really shouldn't be a surprise if the message of something goes over people's heads and something more crude and unintended is absorbed instead.
I'm too lazy to look through my posts but yeah, there was some real "authors should control every didactic aspect of their art" posting a while back I was pushing against.
I honestly don't remember who or when those arguments were made, or by whom. Maybe I was too busy and distracted getting raged and insulted for what I myself said that stood differently than that.
Sort of, except that Moral Orel doesn't pull a pop nihilistic take. In a way it is a morality story, but it's about the moral abomination of fundamentalist religious upbringing and what it takes for a kid to try to endure it long enough to escape it.
I'm not even arguing with you there. It dunks on a morality play, not on morality as a concept.
I don’t see how that makes it any different from any other story that criticizes or gives morals like quite literally Every Story Ever
I don't see the alternative to having at least some detectable moral point somewhere as an inevitability, except futile and hypocritical "NOTHING MATTERS LOL BE A SELFISH ASSHOLE" messaging which is still its own twisted sort of morality.
I'm not even sure you're arguing against something I was intending to say.
Moral Orel dunks on Davie and Goliath as a foundational purpose for the show's existence. Davie and Goliath was a claymation churchy show that was rather directly about promoting the ideology and lifestyle that is portrayed as an artificial and abusive hellscape in Moral Orel. It's not absent of morality, but it's fiercely against the morality of Davie and Goliath.
I may have worded that badly, then. We don't really disagree on much of anything here.
It's a good show, if pretty dark at times. The darkness has a point; it isn't misery porn but the dark humor turns into just grim perseverance over time and it eventually stops being a comedy altogether before it ends.
That's genuinely surprising. I assumed it would be there.
Hopefully the followup for the next inevitable reboot isn't "we need to make this more reactionary and chuddier to win everyone back." :porky-happy:
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Oh, the Steven Universe fandom was feral. I was discouraged from ever trying the show entirely because of that hostility, so loud and fierce that I picked it up without even trying in remote parts of the internet.
It is true that there's "woke" stuff out there that isn't just garbage with woke paint on it. And that's good. :capitalist-woke: :farquaad-point:
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Dark, but pretty accurate. :this-is-fine:
And where did that bring you? Back to me
I still like Steven Universe for the most part, I just refuse to engage with the fandom
Still honestly wish Steven Universe would do an official crossover with Dragon Ball Super, having the Steven Universe cast show up as one of the other teams in the next multiverse tournament would be perfect
I liked Steven Universe but the imperialist/fash apologia of the show threw me for a wild minute. At least the Owl House is better by portraying the witch hating puritan villain straight up evil and shitty (not needing forgiveness). I really enjoy media that admits "you know what bash the fash/imperialist it's good fuckin praxis y'all".
For all I know Steven Universe is very good, but I have stayed away because of how loud and toxic that fandom was, even to a casual observer like myself. The ideology behind some highly sus moments in the plot also bother me after I read a little about it, such as (obvious spoiler alert)
spoiler
the fact that the genocidal crystal people are superficially "forgiven" and all is well after all the death and destruction they already inflicted.
I've never understood that criticism. The Gems weren't really genocidal or imperialistic. Both of those terms imply the act as "targeted", at least in my mind(less so imperialism but I digress) . They're a galactic alien force bent on extracting every resource they find, and barely even acknowledge other life being so far removed. I'm vegan but even I can't prevent or spare thoughts for life I destroy just by existing and walking down the street, which is what I'd somewhat compare it to. When finally confronted by a force that could match them and share a different morality they showed a willingness to change and learn. Are we supposed to punish people for wanting to change who, I reiterate, had an alien morality? That seems like a lot more interesting topic to handle.
Also real world answer, the show was canceled way too early so who knows how they would have handled "rehabilitation" given proper time.
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Yeah I avoid fandoms in a similar manner to live idol worship. I watched and talked about it with friends but that was kinda it. The show is exceedingly good at breaking down issues of emotional trauma, relationship boundaries, inter generational issues, PTSD, stress, burnout, and mental health in a way that is great for kids (prolly was part of the start of "kids shows that didnt talk down to kids about serious shit"). The overarching plot of the imperialist murder gems though could have used some rewrites in the conclusion.
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When it turns out your aunts and grandma are gem Hitlers it gets kinda weird ngl comrade, again that's my negative point for the show yet also my positives points on it also stand (and I think are worthwhile in making emotionally communicative pieces of media). Also you can drop the anger posting this aint :reddit-logo: we can agree to disagree here without malding too much.
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Redemption arcs aren't bad (reddit is just filled with absolutist shitheads), I just think they have to be careful in how they use them (since the audience is commonly children to these types of "redeeming the villain" arcs). For a show like SU that built up a such a huge villain like the Gem Empire it was honestly weird to see them turn it into a family drama of generational strife and misunderstanding, i.e. I feel this is a lib style of the show alongside the treatment of Bismuth as you pointed out. Then again it's weird having a show that's legit set during a lull period in which a revolutionary force got more or less killed/PTSD bombed by a nuke and the evil empire has continued to blow up and exploit planets as colonies. It could be they rushed it, or didn't know how to properly conclude it once the set up was done on Homeworld. The show may have been better off set up in a higher age bracket but then again that stuff is never greenlit by studios so what was made was already pretty amazing by the standards of children's entertainment at the time.
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I remember that. The only treat defended more fiercely than TLJ on Hexbear was Gambo, and to some extent Richard and Mortimer.
I hated that hours long gotcha game and I hated Rian Johnson's smug asshole attitude both in and out of the movie, but that said, I finally saw Glass Onion and if Knives Out was anything like it, maybe his work is tolerable to me when it sticks with murder mysteries.
Literally what the fuck is Gambo I dont spend enough time here to speak in tongues but this like the 14th time Ive seen you mention it
Game of Thrones, and GRRM things in general.
It was first coined on Chapo Trap House, and I just adopted it. I'm anticipating some backlash but I'm used to that.
I just h8 trying to join in on convos and not understanding what's being said lol.
Understandable. :edgeworth-shrug:
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I could list what I was called, but yes, as far as I can remember, regressive wasn't one of them.
The short list I can remember off the top of my head regarding what I was called for criticizing that show was that I was a joyless scold, that I was thin skinned and delicate and easily offended, that I was mentally ill, that I wanted all fiction to be morality plays, and (not kidding about this one, even if it's a whopper) that I was a fascist bolshevik kangaroo court judge dictating morality.
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I do own that one. I do take some moral stands and stand by them, primarily because I feel like someone has to when it's so in vogue to be atomized and permissive about everything except showing care or concern about something, or expressing that society should be improved somewhat. :edgeworth-shrug:
I like some pretty dark stuff sometimes, like Moral Orel. I consider that one to be a masterpiece and it's a direct criticism of an actual morality play of a show. It has heart and sincerity and doesn't revel in cruelty and suffering the way some other shows do, though. There's an air of sympathy instead of spectacle throughout the suffering and misery presented, though the later seasons become less of a comedy and more a story of grim resilience and existential coping.
I don't need everything I enjoy to be a "morality play," not at all, though I take no pleasure from edginess for edginess' sake, cheap shock humor gimmicks that age badly, or grimdark gore/sexual violence spectacles presented for entertainment purposes while masquerading as "historical accuracy" as if full frontal titillation and making a spectacle of the victim is the only way to be that way.
Another example of grim done right is "Come and See." I don't think it'd be improved if Gambo's "historical accuracy" emphasis was put on it and the sexual violence victim in one notorious scene was focused on during the atrocity with titillating camera angles and gratuitous sensationalist emphasis, or if such a scene was repeated a few more times over and over throughout the run time while presented in such a way.
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I know you weren't. I was just clarifying my position and where I stand.
I can't speak for everyone here. In fact, some banned people sometimes went further than I did, maybe even to the point of parody or deliberate exaggeration.
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I did say that modern makers of satire should be more than aware by now that a lot of people are statistically likely to miss the satire and to take whatever's being satirized at face value, as what notoriously happened with Verhoven's Starship Troopers film, which was intended to dunk on Heinlein's novel (which Verhoven expressed personal dislike for, and didn't even finish reading), and the director himself expressed frustration and regret about how too many audience members took the film.
I didn't say it can't be done, but that at this point it really shouldn't be a surprise if the message of something goes over people's heads and something more crude and unintended is absorbed instead.
EDIT: Fixed a can/can't typo.
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I'm too lazy to look through my posts but yeah, there was some real "authors should control every didactic aspect of their art" posting a while back I was pushing against.
I honestly don't remember who or when those arguments were made, or by whom. Maybe I was too busy and distracted getting raged and insulted for what I myself said that stood differently than that.
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Sort of, except that Moral Orel doesn't pull a pop nihilistic take. In a way it is a morality story, but it's about the moral abomination of fundamentalist religious upbringing and what it takes for a kid to try to endure it long enough to escape it.
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I'm not even arguing with you there. It dunks on a morality play, not on morality as a concept.
I don't see the alternative to having at least some detectable moral point somewhere as an inevitability, except futile and hypocritical "NOTHING MATTERS LOL BE A SELFISH ASSHOLE" messaging which is still its own twisted sort of morality.
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I'm not even sure you're arguing against something I was intending to say.
Moral Orel dunks on Davie and Goliath as a foundational purpose for the show's existence. Davie and Goliath was a claymation churchy show that was rather directly about promoting the ideology and lifestyle that is portrayed as an artificial and abusive hellscape in Moral Orel. It's not absent of morality, but it's fiercely against the morality of Davie and Goliath.
I don't know either. :edgeworth-shrug:
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I may have worded that badly, then. We don't really disagree on much of anything here.
It's a good show, if pretty dark at times. The darkness has a point; it isn't misery porn but the dark humor turns into just grim perseverance over time and it eventually stops being a comedy altogether before it ends.
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I'm sorry for the unclear earlier post. :rat-salute-2:
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