https://twitter.com/ThoughtSlime/status/1627029198245359618
Twitter thread continued:
Sometimes people will say "You made me an anarchist" and like... buddy, I don't even think it matters that I myself am an anarchist.
And I regret that that sort of "we're fighting the good fight" mentality has allowed some of the worst grifters on the platform to flourish by manipulating people's passions for their own weird petty reasons.
I think what I do has a lot of value, I'm just saying that what I perceive that value to BE is a lot different than what I thought a few years ago.
I can't tell whether Slime's position here is that changing peoples' minds is completely pointless as there's no hope of change or revolution in the end, or just that changing peoples' minds is pointless without any form of associated praxis. Either way I disagree.
It's fine if this gets removed for sectarianism, but if ThoughtSlime had even an iota of brainpower or even a basic grasp of theory, she would have always known that what she was doing was simply contributing to the liberal entertainment complex. Perhaps a better contribution than the default state of things, but not actually praxis. Even Hakim or RevLeft do not count as praxis because they are not attached to an actual party or organized communitarian (communist or anarchist) political system that makes decisions democratically as an organ of working class power or authority. They themselves may believe themselves to be anarchist or communist, but it is instead a liberal, ideological, and independent adoption of that ideology outside of any material circumstances or larger social movement with actual responsibilities and duties.
I'm not saying that whatever works she is doing is valueless, but it is not praxis, and the fact that she ever mistook it for praxis is why YouTubers and podcasters should never be in charge of any movement. Not enough time reading, too busy posting.
I would challenge your sense of how a "movement" looks in all honesty. The west is missing anybody who wants to partake in communist/working class parties, and recruitment is a part of that. I agree with your point that it's not praxis, of course, but recruitment/ideological work among masses is absolutely still a necessity to have movements gain any sort of trust. I think we likely have enough of it, and we don't need 20 more Hakims (just as an example, insert whatever name you want), but if someone ends up doing the ideological work on the internet better than him, they should do it. We live in a period of time where the accesibility of an ideological work decides its impact, meaning that youtubers and other such people are necessary links to connect people to the world generally. Pipelines exist now and have to be worked with.
Dont read this as a full-throated support of youtubers as leaders or something, I dont think most of them consider themselves even close to that, but it being necessarily liberal is wrong.
That's fine for you to challenge that sense, but I remember what movements, even flash-in-the-pan ones, 'actually' look like. And I can see what they look like in other countries. What we have is a big wet fart that doesn't even disturb the water.
My point is that if the propoganda and ideological work is not attached to an actual, real, existing and operating political movement or apparatus, it does little to actually advance revolution.
To paraphrase Disco Elysium, all the education does outside of a party context is make you sad. And sad people don't stick with political work, they primarily seek escape.
, all the education does outside of a party context is make you sad. And sad people don’t stick with political work, they primarily seek escape.
:doomjak:
i'm in this picture and don't like it.
there's no party for me to join and i don't have the rizz to start one or the money to escape.
It's almost as if I say things sometimes because I see them occuring or something.
What party though? In most of the west, especially the big imperial core states, there are absolutely no leftist parties or even orgs with a single iota of political power. As an individual working-class person who also has to work and survive within capitalism I genuinely feel like the best thing I can really do is plant seeds in other people to change their opinions, so maybe in 100 years if we aren't all dead maybe we'll reach a critical mass of leftists and something revolutionary might spark that I had one one-millionth of a hand in causing. Feels unfair to ask even e-celeb lefties to somehow create a political power where one isn't.
Correct! That is exactly my point. It is THE major problem and contradiction that must be solved prior to any 'actual' political work getting done in the west.
It's a very classic chicken-egg problem. Most YouTubers or podcasters don't even bother trying to address it as it removes the unintentional obfuscation of what their efforts actually are. Some have tried, such as Haz, but his was a project of ego rather than a connection to any real political movement (and that is besides the ideological idiocy and incoherency of his movement).
Perhaps that is the 'best' thing you can do. But it is important not to mistake what the 'best' ideological thing is for 'praxis'. I'd argue there is more 'praxis' in becoming a part of a church than in posting online, no matter how correct your theory of change is.
I am not asking leftist e-celebs to create political power where there is none. In fact, I am asking for the opposite! I am asking them to acknowledge and be aware that what they are doing does not generate political power.
Ah I was replying to your previous comment to me, but then I glanced here. I think you are right here. It's not praxis, but I guess I think they can be doing something parallel to praxis if they are also calling to join specific goods orgs. idk if they do that tho. I do know people who joined orgs after having watched similar youtube vids that got them out of liberal ideas. If they will be effective in revolution, i have no idea
It remains to be seen. Imo watching YouTube videos can be a good start, but without a follow-up community organization that also has some level of labor or volunteer organizing (i.e. not just a book club), it just doesn't add up to much. We can complain and be right, but those actions a theory of organization and change does not make.
It is so interesting to me how people seem to imagine a working-class party with considerable power and influence appearing out of thin air and without any work. … Like, yeah, that would be great, but it isn’t the world we live in yet. But the reality is that building a meaningful “left” means being highly committed to doing the work of actually building it. That is the whole point of a vanguard (if that is your thing) anyway, that people who reach a certain level of ideological advancement begin to do the work, and apply it to the real work, collectively, and begin the arduous task of winning over the masses of people. They treat it something like a second job, and do everything they can to build a real institution of working class power that has integrated, or build ties, into whatever organic efforts the working class has made to self-organize.
If you read the guidelines and expectations from the Black Panther Party, for instance, it sounds incredibly intense. They were expected to do work every day organizing, to report their work daily as well, to read theory for an hour a day, as well as the news. The BPP started off with just two college friends who read a lot of theory, they only had any meaningful impact, and could punch way a ove their weight because thousands of people joined and made a commitment to build it. If you are discouraged because it doesn’t exist yet, or seems anemic, maybe the problem is that too many people have a liberal attitude, that they see that the work needs to be done but expect others to do it for them.
Yup, you have to look at other countries and how they do things. Zero American Excellence.
Leaders are people like Chris Smalls, any media personality is just a freelance propagandist until they join a party
Yes, this exactly. Chris Smalls is attached to a political labor organization that has a voting constituency, terms and a concrete political aim. When he goes and talks to people and does propoganda, it constitutes praxis on his part not 'because' of the action in-of-itself, but because of the context of his actions.
The gray area is what to consider his actions 'prior' to the union actually forming. I think they can be considered 'activism' or 'approaching praxis', certainly more effective than any single podcast or YouTube channel, but he became someone 'doing praxis' when he had a labor organization the he was affiliated with outside of himself.
This wasn't meant to deride propagandists really. With the way our labor party system works in America, your only real options are DSA, IWW, or PSL. And many of these people are involved in at least one of those orgs. They also help spread the message of organization like ALU and even if they aren't directly members, which can definitely help you grow and strengthen those movements.
"Freelance" propagandists aren't totally useless, they just serve a role that's very different from leader. They are not elected, they are not appointed or even qualified to lead in most cases. What they can do though is help disseminate messages and amplify the voices of those who do serve as elected leaders of actual working class organizations.
You aren't Lenin, you aren't Stalin, you're just someone who works at the film studio. At best like a Sergei Einstein, not someone who leads political movements, but someone who supports them.
I guess that all kinda goes out the window with
:kim-il-young:
Of course! My irritation isn't with the fact that these people are doing 'freelance' propaganda.
My irritation is with the fact that they so very often refuse to take a step back, do some meta-analysis, read some actual theory, and because of that, do whiplash turns against their supposed online communities. They post and post and post and get burned out and then post more to complain about being burned out. It's like, 'Oh, you feel alienated from a revolutionary movement? Damn, if only there wasn't volumes of literature written about that by people who actually ended up doing revolutions' But they don't want to read, they want to post. Reading is for nerds. Nevermind that you can do both.
Agreed, is basically just a failure on their part to see their role. A symptom of not reading enough theory or not being in close enough proximity to real movements
Sure, freelance propagandists arent bad though if they are working to get people into socialist orgs. Chris Smalls isn't trying to do ideological work, he's being a leader. So of course they're different
As they should be, you just need to understand your role and position when you're the unaffiliated propagandist. It can feel like you're doing nothing if you are off the mind that you're some revolutionary leader and not just there as backup.
Eh, a lot of people have been radicalized by Youtube videos. Even if it's not directly achieving change, opening peoples' perspective and educating them lays the groundwork. Once a person has been radicalized by online sources, they will be undoubtedly far more likely to join real, material movements and parties.
It 'can' lay the groundwork, but in my experience it mostly leads to sadness, isolation, and malaise. Political work and education has to be a community project, a part of a communicating body politic. Not isolated instances online or para-social communities.
I will agree that perhaps it's more that it gives the malaise an identity, rather than creating it in of itself. But I have seen too many young, hopeful people look to these entertainment personalities for guidance only for that hope to be slowly worn away like rocks by so many waves, with nothing to show for it.
Hell, there is far more hope and energy in the non-profit field, even if they still have absolutely nothing to show for it, because they are least getting paid for their nonsense. In my witness, the path of, as you call it, 'faux-radicalization', is absolutely more of a net creator of unhappiness than any other path of radicalization. I don't like to refer to it as 'faux-radicalization' though, personally.
To me it's 'radicalization-as-entertainment', as opposed to 'radicalization-as-politics'. Both are radicalization, but the outcomes and affects are substantially different. And that doesn't mean that 'radicalization-as-politics' can't be exhausting and sad as well. It's just that usually there are better long term outcomes from the latter. With the latter, you generally still get to form a community, meet people, have kids, etc.
Look, if you want to fund my unsanctioned rocket experiments, my dms are open. :dudes-rock:
I agree with that. There are things I otherwise wouldn't have known that I could have been comfortably dumb about. But a lot of Marxism is comforting because now I at least have the words and mental framework to explain the things I was already feeling and experiencing. I know people who are like me, but didn't learn Marxism, so instead they just assume the world is and will always suck and that humanity is bad. I'd rather be a depressed nerd than a nihilist or misanthrope.
Imagine being in a civil war led by podcaster commanders. The white army is at your door step and all your comrades are injured. You're awaiting orders from the big boss, likely a broken arrow command. But during the last moments of your life you find out he's too busy arguing with some 20 follower account criticizing him for not wearing a mask to the war room
To be fair I'm pretty sure Breht from refleft is actually involved in leftist orgs, and I think that his show has gotten more people to get involved in orgs. Something I think needs talking about more is that when communist ideas exist in your head but not in your actions or relationship with your community then you aren't a communist, just a class conscious worker, being a communist should mean more than convincing people of this or that tenet of Marxism on the internet, but being an anarchist is not the same. If your anarchism exists only in your head it's just as valid as any anarchism because it's individualist , and freeing your own mind is the extent of its liberation.
Breht is one of those 'on-the-cusp' guys. Definitely better than basically everybody else. Shame that I enjoy Chapo, TF and the Deprogram more as shows, but Breht is the most directly involved with actual political organizing.
From Chapter 1 of Lenin's "What is to be Done?"
Without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement. This idea cannot be insisted upon too strongly at a time when the fashionable preaching of opportunism goes hand in hand with an infatuation for the narrowest forms of practical activity.
The popularization of leftism and marxism in the past few years has done nothing to bolster the left or further unify its disparate tendencies. All it’s done is watered down and further confused the issue of leftist politics as they’re pulled into the recuperation machine and spun back out as cool shirts and podcasts. The internet has only sped up this issue by allowing individual’s with freak beliefs to be amplified far past their position creating abominations of theories and tendencies (re: MAGA Communism and/or “i’M a LaRoUcHiTe-NeO-tRoTsKyIsT-pAlEo-StAlInIsT wItH aNaRcHo ChArAcTeRiStIcS”). There is work to be done, less to be talked about
There is work to be done, less to be talked about
Ironically, lot of that work to be done is talking just to neighbors, coworkers etc and not randos online. But those are the types of conversations people have anxiety over.
But even then the thing to do isn’t to go door to door like the mormons sharing the good word of Karl Marx. It’s to use our well developed material analysis skills to take the lay of the land locally and either join up with or start an org that goes about doing the work needed to move the needle and then through that process reach out to your local community to expand your efforts. If you live in your neighborhood you know what it needs and if you give the people what they need they’ll listen to what you have to say. Hunger, housing, and education are almost universally an issue that needs to be addressed in every community. Let’s have the marxists lead the charge rather than the professional NGO lib class that will only make the situation worse or god forbid the right-wing church charity groups that are really just there to hand out jesus stickers while their actual political apparatus dismantles the institutions that would otherwise make their charity unnecessary
I credit Thot Slime with being one of the few "breadtubers" that didn't complete disappoint me and make me think they were always a grifter. And I thank them for getting bullied by MLs on Twitter which is why I gave State and Rev a chance to see what all the fuss was about.
But this is something I struggle with. Like, I've put on the They Live glasses and can't take them off. Where's the line between not getting worked up over every little thing I can't control and just becoming a detached lib?
Where’s the line between not getting worked up over every little thing I can’t control and just becoming a detached lib?
That line is organizing so that you're worked up over things you can control.
One thing I noted that ThoughtSlime does that I still never see other leftist YouTubers do, not even the Deprogram boys, is take time out of every video to spotlight a smaller YouTuber and funnel some views their way.
It's such a small and simple thing to do that can have a huge positive impact on another person and nobody else really does it
And I regret that that sort of “we’re fighting the good fight” mentality has allowed some of the worst grifters on the platform to flourish by manipulating people’s passions for their own weird petty reasons
Finally someone inside the clique calling out all the weird moralism on the internet left. It's honestly unwatchable at times with the holier than thou mentality. Sounds like I'm back in church.
I mainly read books on my phone nowdays anyways, not like it's made me any less brainwormed lol. Probably more when you start talking about stuff like world systems theory or other things.
Stop worrying about YouTube celebrities!!!! They're not your friends!!!
she's right and she should say it, and her vids are funne
That's because ThoughtSlime isn't part of an org as far as I know. There's a huge difference between someone having good takes and someone who organizes. No matter how good your takes are or how eloquently you express them, without an org behind you, you're nothing more than a good public speaker. Malcolm X wasn't great because he gave good speeches, but because he never left a city without building a new org in it (for most of his life, a new NOI branch).
