What do the fascists get out of saying the truth? Shouldn’t they be cheering on the war machine? My conservative family is sharing this vid around and I’m very confused on what to do. Why can’t it be socialists and communists who get millions of views by talking like this?
IMO the chuds are taking the anti-war stance at this present moment because of oppositional defiant disorder. They don't give a shit about being anti war, they just want to do/believe the exact opposite of what Mr. Democrat Biden is doing.
If the shoe was on the other foot and "their guy" was in office they'd be bending over backwards to justify the militarism, like when Trump drone striked an international airport to take out Qasem Soleimani which could have easily started a war with Iran.
Also, they loooove Putin, at least the european far right. They see him as a beacon anti degeneration, or something.
But yeah, in the US is mostly contrarianism, Putin triggering le epic libtards and weak Biden. If Trump was in power they'd be talking about Trump being the last bastion for LGBTQ people and those silly activists who criticize him so much.
There are basically 4 right wing camps
- They support Putin because he’s the true aryan who’s anti “western degneracy.” They think his might will push the west to become more militant and less ‘progressive’ and save the white race. They also don’t like Zelensky because he’s Jewish
- They support Ukraine because they believe Putin is Jewish and trying to impose Judeo-Bolshevism onto the west, starting with Ukraine and using Muslims to help with that. They don’t like Zelensky, but think Ukrainians are the true aryans and defenders of the white race
- They hate this war because they don’t give a shit about Russia, or think they can topple Russia inadvertently by waging war against China and want to focus on that instead
- They’ve never forgiven Russia for becoming communist and challenging them and want to see them utterly destroyed at any cost
Someone stole the noodles out of your soup.
Anti-war is supposed to be the left's bread and butter. But the left has completely fallen down on this, just like the working class issue. The right found the issue lying around on the ground and picked it up. Now they're the principled moral ones who are saying to stop the killing and singing "War! Huh! What is it good for! Absolutely nothin'! Say it, Say it, Say it, Say it!" This never should have been allowed to happen. But it has.
Now they’re the principled moral ones
There is no principle with reactionaries, only appearances. This is entirely about aesthetics to them. They like Putin for being an orthodox queerhunter, not for being a stopgap to Amerikan expansionism. They like Xi for having balls of steel, not for putting the capitalist class in its place and offering an alternative to western allegiance to the global south.
Consequently, the right's occupation of anti-war protests will never lead to a policy change within the Republican party, in spite of the GOP paying much more attention to the vibes that resonate with their electorate than the Dems do. They know from the Trump years that they can stick to the entirely gestural and performative, simple and meaningless things like their guys saying something nice about Putin. It will be enough to make the libs scream Russiagate all over again, which will be enough to give the hogs the nice, fuzzy glow of having triggered the libs, and nothing will fundamentally change.
The right doesn't actually have an anti-war politics. Tucker Carlson talking about how dumb the libs are for supporting war in Ukraine after a segment about woke candy is not politics. The masses are not mobilized by him and the rightists in power aren't gonna play along either.
Even if it's paltry it's leftists on the front of the anti-war movement still. It's leftists doing the agitating and organizing. What the right does is just spectacle. It's like pretending listening to your favorite podcast is politics.
Why can’t it be socialists and communists who get millions of views by talking like this?
Because 🎶 it's a mediaopoly 🎶
Googled this and one of the first results is snopes
WHAT'S TRUE: A 1998 episode of SNL included a "Schoolhouse Rock!" parody segment called "Conspiracy Theory Rock!" that was dropped from subsequent reruns of the episode. WHAT'S FALSE: The "Conspiracy Theory Rock!" segment was banned or suppressed by the network because its anti-corporate message was deemed too dangerous, offensive to sponsors, or otherwise unflattering to various corporations.
Wtf is going on in the minds of deboonkers
My favorite deboonker site is Politifact. After Biden's BBB bill was so stone-cold dead that even everybody on MSNBC was calling it dead - Politifact refused to use that word. Anything involving BBB was described as "stalled" or the topic had articles that were 1,000s of words long "explaining" everything with half-truths and lies.
this one takes the cake for me
https://checkyourfact.com/2019/12/24/fact-check-633000-homeless-million-vacant-homes/
An image shared on Facebook claims that there are more than 633,000 homeless people and more than 13.9 million vacant homes in America.
Verdict: False
The most recent data from the National Alliance to End Homelessness puts the number of homeless people at 552,830. There are more than 17 million vacant homes across the U.S., according to the Census Bureau.
Today I learned that more than 17 million is actually not more than 13.9 million.
Thanks, internet!
I gave up on that site in 2016 when the links were being shared. I read one article about Hillary Clinton and it sounded like it had been written by her attorney. All evasion and "you can't prove that in court" and other obvious bullshit tactics. Conclusion: false.
Politifact was partisan from the beginning, but seeing Snopes do the same bullshit killed the last shred of optimism I had for the Internet in 2016ish
Watched it. It's not very good. It's by that "TV funhouse" guy who made all those unfunny shorts back in the day. A typical embittered liberal pouring his vindictiveness out in public.
What do the fascists get out of saying the truth?
Unfortunately, popular consent to govern.
Fascists have always co-opted the speech, aesthetics, and imagery of the left to deceive the working class into thinking that actually it is the fascists who are standing up for the working class.
The western left is either unwilling or unable to contest the fascists, who then have full reign in the public forum to give lip service to the anti-war working class, while shaking the hand of the war profiteers behind their backs.
This is not to say it is entirely the fault of the western left, which has been under the boot of fascism for decades, but their lack of presence in the media, culture, and community leaves the forum open to whatever uncontested viewpoint the fascists need to use to gain consent
It's a case of unable. There is not a single popular news media source that actually allows leftwing views past mild socdem on their platform. The extremely online (i.e. us) and institutional radical left (who are quite literally dying off) know what's up, but the average person doesn't even know such there is a thing that is "left". They know "liberal" and "conservative" and "liberals" are "communists". Or, even liberals who know they aren't communists think that they aren't "communist" because "communists" are "authoritarians", like the Republicans.
The literal narrative of history, reality, and conception of politics is completely different and there isn't a single mainstream news organization that recognizes that it even exists to be given a 'fair and balanced' platform.
As such we are mostly stuck yelling at each other.
It's not that we don't 'leave the forum uncontested'. Every forum that has leftists generally has it's majority share of anti-war leftists, it's just that every. single. forum. is a capitalist owned shithole that bans the fuck out of you if you start to get traction, or has 'leftwing' mods who demonstrate zero understanding of consistent leftwing theory and principles.
The socialists getting millions of views are entertainers who enjoy the google/YouTube paychecks. Fascists benefit because they know
- the conservative base is pissed off with the price of everything and seeing money flow out so easily even if they don’t want to use it to benefit society
- conservatives hate Chinese, some hate Russians, but they hate democrats even more
- Ukraine and Zelensky were central to a major Trump “scandal” and Biden conspiracy that they haven’t forgiven
- neoconservatives do cheer on the wad machine but lie just to stay on the voters’ good side
It’s like having an abusive parent who sometimes buys you McDonald’s to shut you up and the other parent completely forgets you even exist, is indifferent when they do remember, and prefers to be a parent to another kid and his family
Their team isn't in the White House.
The left media sphere, much smaller and independent, does very similar stuff. Too many podcasters were on there's not much too talk about after Biden was elected and the on the pandemic is over.
It's all incoherent also. Like what Dore is saying exists in a vacuum. The rhetoric is not to intrude in some greater ideological vision of the USA being great.
Everything is discrete and how dare anyone suggest otherwise.
Easy to forget that Bush Jr was staunchly against Clinton's wars in Kosovo and Somalia back in the 90s.
Or that Trump was an anti-war guy in the late '00s
Shouldn’t they be cheering on the war machine?
See, I would disagree with that. The chuds don't like war, in and of itself. What they like is winning wars. To rip out the enemy's heart and drink his blood. That's what they desire above all, a bit of the old ultra-violence. And to find out afterwards that they were right to do it. Well, the DC establishment blob hasn't delivered a win since Tokyo 1945. Korea and Vietnam stuck in their craw, and Afghanistan tore it.
"...it's a crying shame the way war has been handled in the last few decades. I mean, let's look at it out in the open. Let's stop this pussyfootin' around. Can you tell me why the hell we've given up on the Germans? Can you? Those damn politicians in Washington have chalked them up on our side, and the wars ever since have been a national disgrace. Hell, look at history. The two best wars this country has fought were against the Jerries. Now I say, get the Krauts back on the other side of the fence where they belong, and let's return to the kind of enemy worth killing and the kind of war this whole country can support."
-- Uncle Victor, "Harold & Maude" (1971)
And it's not that the blob can't win - it's that they don't want to win. The war is the point of the war. If they won the war, it would be over! To get the idea, imagine an NGO set up to cure some social ill, and actually does it. Everyone who works there would be out of a job! Why would the blob stop making wealth for itself? Look at the temper tantrum they threw when ordered to withdraw from Afghanistan. They deliberately botched it to show how angry they were, and to set an example for the future. Don't you dare stop our precious wars or we'll do it again!
It's also a case that the U.S. can't actually win wars outside of it's borders, (German politicians were looking for settlements prior to U.S. entry in WWI, only being stopped by the refusal of the army to agree to the ceasefire, Soviets won WWII) because they are completely unwilling to invest the amount of money that is required to set up competent administration for occupation. Actual serious occupation requires setting up infrastructural relationships that can only be maintained by the industry of the colonizer. It's also how you can also maintain neo-colonial relationships after you ostensibly leave.
The U.S. no longer has the capability to develop and maintain that level of infrastructure, and it has never really been a part of their game plan to begin with, because the U.S. is actually incredibly bad and inefficient at everything it does, getting by one the fact we have a low population (because of austerity and genocide) and high amount of natural resources to play with. We can afford to be inefficient in ways that other countries simply cannot, but eventually that inefficiency will start to bite us in the ass in a significant way.
What do the fascists get out of saying the truth?
For a week or two (longer?) Fucker is going to try extra hard to seem "reasonable" because he came across as a nutjob with his January 6th vids. But after that he'll be back to his regularly scheduled hate speech, intolerance, and just asking questions.
What the fuck is up with the faces conservatives choose to pull?
Conservative expression syndrome
I was convinced that this was an edit untill I finally saw Tucker blink. Man straight up looked like a jpeg
Dore is a crank and his oppinions on more than a couple of issues suck but we here are supposed to not be politicaly illiterate radlibs so how is he anything close to a fascist. Words mean things . Dore's opinions (socialy, covid wise etc) are basicaly close to what a lot of boomer commies have here in my country. Not people i organize with or have a great time arguing against but i would never in a million years think its remotely correct or usefull to call them fascists . Seems insane to me
And to repeat my self from an older thread:
How come americans here always (correctly) go on about how anti-imperialism and anti-war stances and action is by far the most important thing the American left should focus on and hold true yet they are much more likely to be “forgiving” to people or orgs with at best mid or actively bad socdem stances imperialism and foreign policy wise ( be it socdem politicians, orgs like the DSA or even media personalities) because they are vaugely “socialist” or preach medicare for all and still consider them allies .But there is no benifit of the doupt or usefullness to be acknowledged towards people with solid and open anti-war and anti-imperialist stances because they have bad opinions on vaccines or went on TC or whatever. Kinda betrayes a lot of people’s actual priorities by what they consider the gravest and unforgivable sins .
Sorry the battle for Covid or entryism to the dems to pass “socialish” policies is lost and was never one that could be won in America. Sorry im not american, i dont fucking care about Dore being annoying with “force the vote” or whatever squad electoral drama he was dumb about. Vax opinions being bad sucks but the same amount of people were gonna die in Ameica either way even if everyone in the entire “left” had the most correct opinions over vaccines and covid prevention . So seeing the american left , unable to form a semblance of a coherent and solid anti-imperialism and anti-war movement in the time its most needed, treating people that have some reach, arent liberals or fascists and have anti-war stances and correct opinions as enemies over vax opinions or going on TC while they completely fail to even attempt or agree at ostracizing people, politicians or (social) media heads with reactionary foreign policy positions is a sign that i shouldnt hope for much. You would find more people here willing to call John Oliver “usefull” and give him some benifit of the doupt or use his content for propaganda than Jimmy Dore (who again i dont care enough to have strong feelings about ,especially if his dumb opinions are regarding vaccines or the dems or the dsa) and thats trully baffling to me
If the DSA’s and demsocs and libsocs and squads that the american left has either given the benifit of the doupt to for years and years and the american left itself either actively stand against that movement , cant agree around it or push for it and are unable to convince even idk 10k people a year towards an anti war movement then sorry im not gonna consider a bad thing that an antivax semi-conservative socdem dumbass (or whatever he is) with strong anti-war stance like Jimmy Dore reaching a couple of million GoP boomers with a " support to Ukraine and war with China are bad and a deep state thing and fuck the dems and neocons too" message that even 10% of them may be sympathetic too american isolationism and “no money to zelensky” . If you dont want that to be seen as useful or a net positive by a non American then better hope for the american leftists and orgs and socdem politicians that they may support to give me something on the by far most pressing and important issue.
Sorry im not american, i dont fucking care about Dore being annoying with “force the vote” or whatever squad electoral drama he was dumb about. Vax opinions being bad sucks but the same amount of people were gonna die in Ameica either way even if everyone in the entire “left” had the most correct opinions over vaccines and covid prevention .
No mention of his views on trans people :thonk-trans:
Even if you don't give a shit about the things you mentioned, they matter because they tell us loud and clear that Dore is a grifter who is willing to say whatever gives himself clout. It's foolish to blindly fall behind some random unknown quantity, but in Dore's case he's not even unknown, but rather is known to be a grifter. Like the reason Force The Vote is bad is not like, "How dare you criticize AOC!" it's because it shows how he's willing to infight or pick pointless fights just to increase his own clout. He'd happily do the same to a more ideologically committed person/org if he saw the opportunity.
The question is not whether we can stomach Dore's views for the case of advancing our agenda, but whether aligning with Dore actually does anything to advance our agenda at all. If we rally around grifters and clout chasers, then we very quickly lose control of our messaging, and actually accomplishing things will not be a priority. By aligning with someone like Dore, we would be potentially sacrificing the ability to unite with people who he randomly attacks to gain clout, as well as the people who recognize him as a grifter and don't want to be associated with him. And he offers virtually nothing in exchange.
It's fucking wild how quickly people on here will throw actual orgs under the bus in favor of some random online grifter with a two minute clip on Fox News.
but whether aligning with Dore
What does this mean, though? I'm opposed to the war, but I don't "align" with Dore. I'm just pleased to see any anti war rhetoric on mainstream TV.
By align I mean the same sorts of things the person I was responding to was talking about. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, letting yourself be associated with him, etc. Admittedly the whole thing is kind of irrelevant materially speaking, but it matters in terms of optics.
Antiwar rhetoric on TV is good. I guess I see it the same way as I might view some of the "new-Atheist" types, where I was always like, I agree with them to the extent that they agree with me, but they don't speak for me or represent me.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, letting yourself be associated with him, etc.
Could you expand on this? How does one let oneself be associated with a douchey youtube shouty guy who sometimes says the right things, much less often than he says the wrong things?
I agree with them to the extent that they agree with me, but they don’t speak for me or represent me.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but that seems to be the same position I have, and shipwreck has, about this. If you'll notice their opening sentence is:
Dore is a crank and his oppinions on more than a couple of issues suck
Could you expand on this? How does one let oneself be associated with a douchey youtube shouty guy who sometimes says the right things, much less often than he says the wrong things?
If I start telling someone about my position on Ukraine, I'm not going to bring him up, and if someone else brings him up, I'll tell them that I'm only vaguely familiar and make it clear that my views aren't influenced by his. I'm also gonna dunk on people who hand-wring that "the left" (i.e. some tweets I saw) not liking him is a major problem somehow or an indication of hypocrisy or bad priorities.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but that seems to be the same position I have, and shipwreck has, about this. If you’ll notice their opening sentence
shipwreck isn't who I responded to?
And yeah the person I responded to admits he has bad positions but also goes on to make all these sweeping criticisms of "the left" for not wanting to be associated with him, which is what I disagree with.
But there is no benifit of the doupt or usefullness to be acknowledged towards people with solid and open anti-war and anti-imperialist stances because they have bad opinions on vaccines or went on TC or whatever
Excellent point this really resonated with me. Thanks for pointing this out :meow-hug:
What do the fascists get out of saying the truth?
Whether it's libs or conservatives, it's all controlled opposition. They fill the space and provide a social acceptable alternative to the thing they are against. It creates the illusion of choice, of having a free and open society.
