• WoofWoof91 [comrade/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            there is no hope arguing it because your argument is "i want to kill animals and not feel bad about it"

                • fratsarerats [none/use name]
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  The dairy industry is the meat industry so that is no excuse.

                  Uh oh here comes "lifestyle-ism." In that case if you live in the west then that's no excuse. You contribute in one way or another to the system so "no excuse"

                  • AHopeOnceMore [he/him]B
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    I feel like you've forgotten your own previous point and are now just doing mental gymnastics.

        • WoofWoof91 [comrade/them]
          ·
          2 years ago

          Moralistic veganism is just misanthrope nonsense that borders on ecofascism

          :data-laughing:

          which of you losers upvoted this? show yourselves so i can mock you

        • panopticon [comrade/them]
          ·
          edit-2
          2 years ago

          A food system that doesn’t include chicken eggs would not only provide people with less food, it would also be less sustainable and create more food waste.

          ??? Then eat the eggs I guess? But that's not eating the chickens, idgi sorry, what you said here doesn't follow from your premise

          Also are those chickens eating agricultural surplus or is the surplus grown expressly for the factory-farmed chickens?

          If you've got well cared-for pet chickens then yeah eat the eggs but I think you're equivocating

            • panopticon [comrade/them]
              ·
              2 years ago

              Ok fascinating

              I'm talking about today, and so was the comment I replied to before they diverted into a historical argument

              Using history to defend a practice that may no longer be necessary is facile, sorry

              • sysgen [none/use name,they/them]
                ·
                2 years ago

                The comment you were replying to was about how in a future sustainable society it would still make sense to have chickens for the same reason they were useful historically.

                • panopticon [comrade/them]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  2 years ago

                  I am pointing out that these arguments:

                  we shouldn’t eat pork because pigs are as intelligent and emotional as three year old humans.

                  if you cut the head of a chicken off at the brain stem it can survive more or less indefinably. It’s basically a giant bug and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with eating it.

                  Insisting that human nutrition should be de-prioritized in favor of the lives of animals that roughly have the intelligence of five Beatles is essentially eco-fascist.

                  are unrelated to the historical argument and using the former to bolster the latter is incoherent. Okay, if raising chickens is an important component of a whole food system then great, like I said eat the eggs, you still haven't connected that with the practice of eating meat

                  But chickens are not bugs and saying hey maybe we don't need to eat them isn't eco fascist, chickens form attachments, fear for their lives, enjoy being petted and held by humans. Bugs don't care for any of that shit except for staying alive.

                  I think I've made my point clear so I'm done here, peace✌️

                  • sysgen [none/use name,they/them]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    The point of eating livestock is that if you just let them die you've wasted resources. You can argue that's worth it, but the connection to the practice of eating meat is there.

                • AHopeOnceMore [he/him]B
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  The comment they were replying to didn't present any history at all. They were just telling a story to retroactively justify raising, killing, and eating chickens.

                  And as parent said, the fact that something was done previously is not a good justification for doing it now. In fact, it's the base of conservatism and then reactionary thought. There need to be other, good reasons.

                  • sysgen [none/use name,they/them]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    2 years ago

                    That's not how I read it. They explained why it was done historically. They didn't just say we should do it because it was done previously - they said : here is why it was done, and implied that the same reasons apply today.

                    It's not a story that raising, killing, and eating chickens is an efficient use of resources in a context of sustainable, low-industry farming. It's factual and true, in that context. That's currently a widespread context in 2023 across the Third World (of course not in more economically developed countries), and there are many people on this website that think that we should adopt this kind of approach to agriculture moving forwards. If you do, then yes, it's an efficient way to do it, and that is an argument towards that.

                    You may disagree and think that this isn't a sufficient reason. That's not the same as saying that it's merely an argument from tradition, because it isn't.

        • AHopeOnceMore [he/him]B
          ·
          2 years ago

          We don't actually know exactly why people started farming chickens. It was almost definitely in Southeast Asia, but the reasons that people participated in any kind of agriculture have been varied snd changed over time. Eventually it became simply a form of food, and one that synergized with cereal production, but raising chickens predates the existence of having any significant amount of agricultural waste to feed them.

          Your idea of having "ethical" decapitated chickens makes no sense. Nobody does this and it would contradict the labor saved by letting chickens deal with ag waste. It's also just plain infeasible because cutting at exactly the brain stem isn't easy.

          In a world of industrialized agriculture, our ability to produce enough food or nutritious food is not the problem. Ag waste can be recycled straight back into ag or used in other ways abd is unnecessary for food production except when poverty has been forced onto people artificially, such as through imperialism. Groups like the FAO like to talk about malnutrition in countries in Africa while ignoring the elephant in the room: the empire has forced IMF "restructuring" on them, has undercut domestic food production, and turned their economies into extraction industry and perpetual poverty. In this status quo of deprivation, liberals squabble over whether having chickens or a cow is "the fix". Meanwhile, industrialised ag can produce more and better food, and cheaper, but it is deliberately made unavailable by global capitalism.

          Anti-veganism is not particularly well-grounded in a material analysis. It's usually just reactionary excuse-making and recycles the same kinds of self-serving talking points I've heard from "leftists" that work for defense contractors.