Now that I have your attention, did anyone else start rewatching it after the thread about what version to watch the other day? I vaguely remember watching the old dub when it was first airing in the US back in the 90s, and watching the remastered dub now I'm surprised at how well it holds up, all things considered. Except for the heavy overuse of flashing lights as a cheap to animate special effect, that part fucking sucks since I have to either physically cover my eyes or alt-tab until it's through with it.
I also keep getting distracted trying to pick out all the little labor saving animation tricks they used and trying to figure out how they managed to make such janky animations actually look decent, as well as wondering why modern low-budget animation can't manage the same effect even though modern tools should make it even easier and faster to use the old stylistic tricks. Is it just a matter of janky cell animation needing a very specific set of skills that no one today cultivates in order to look good?
I've just gotten through the tree arc. Weirdly, despite being 46 episodes long the first season felt like it was fairly well paced for the content it had; there were definitely filler episodes but it didn't really drag all that much, and the in-episode pacing got better the further into it it got. In comparison the first arc of the second season felt like an absolute slog, despite being much shorter - most episodes felt like nothing really happened and the action scenes getting taken over by increasingly long reused move sequences got old fast. While that particular labor saving trick is understandable in context - you make one intricately animated sequence and then use it over and over and over indefinitely instead of spending more on bespoke animations - goddamn if it doesn't get tiring to watch.
There's also the issue that while overall it seems much better than one would expect something from the early 90s to be, there's some creepy shit with a central conceit of the story being that the 14 year old main character is the fated soulmate of a guy who seems to be in his early 20s because the moon despot did a Third Impact after some guys with swords ran to the moon on a cloud, and that their relationship is portrayed 100% positively with him being a moral compass who's helpful but never oversteps the main character's personal agency. I can't decide if it gets some credit for making him an impossibly perfect passive wish fulfilment object for the main character (and thus does better than the typical anime things where he would be the viewer insert and Usagi would be the viewer wish-fulfilment prize) or if that just makes it worse by narratively contriving to make a relationship that would be extremely creepy and predatory IRL ontologically ok.
Overall though, it's a decent nostalgia trip that's making me realize just how formative it was on my imagination as a kid, and even now is making me think a lot about the technical and structural parts. But if the pacing doesn't get better in the second arc of season two I don't know if I'll manage to get through it, and I might just stop and go watch the much shorter reboot instead.
there's some creepy shit with a central conceit of the story being that the 14 year old main character is the fated soulmate of a guy who seems to be in his early 20s because the moon despot did a Third Impact after some guys with swords ran to the moon on a cloud, and that their relationship is portrayed 100% positively with him being a moral compass who's helpful but never oversteps the main character's personal agency. I can't decide if it gets some credit for making him an impossibly perfect passive wish fulfilment object for the main character (and thus does better than the typical anime things where he would be the viewer insert and Usagi would be the viewer wish-fulfilment prize) or if that just makes it worse by narratively contriving to make a relationship that would be extremely creepy and predatory IRL ontologically ok.
3 things about this.
- i knew a bunch of people who had crushes on older people in middle school, it happens a lot. i think it's pretty clearly meant as a wish fulfillment from that angle, which makes it a little less gross to me. especially because...
- iirc he was only 16 or so in the manga, as opposed to 18 in the anime. that's a lot better, but i still think it's kinda gross
- the most noteworthy director of the show was probably kunihiko ikuhara. ikuhara was an episode director in season 1, then a codirector of season 2, then directed seasons 3 and 4. (incidentally if you don't like season 2 try season 3, which is commonly regarded as the best) ikuhara reportedly didn't like tuxedo mask, for basically the reasons you put here. he downplayed his role in the story when he could, and his next show was revolutionary girl utena. utena is my favorite anime ever and is in a lot of ways a commentary on sailor moon, as well as shoujo more broadly. it has a few specific bits that feel like callouts of tuxedo mask, and is just generally really good at talking about gender and sexuality. ikuhara himself loves to cosplay as sailor mars, and was the inspiration for the twink in evangelion
Yeah. Like apart from the age gap it's probably one of the best handled fantasy-perfect-romance-wish-fulfilment relationships, since he's just written as this wholesome and helpful figure who never steals the spotlight or takes over for the main character; like he's not some powerful prince who Usagi surrenders her agency to, he's just another magically superpowered being who's actively weaker than her but who still makes a difference by showing up to help too.
I just had to comment on it because it's been the one big issue that sticks out while I've been watching it.
his next show was revolutionary girl utena.
For some reason I thought Utena was earlier. I never finished watching that after forgetting what episode I was on, I think it was around when the weird shoe thing started?
the shoe thing? if i'm thinking of the right thing,
minor utena spoilers
akio is actively grooming utena, and the show is incredibly aware of how creepy that is. this is the bit i was talking about that feels inspired by sailor moon, in like a "what if you actually had an adult man dating a 14 year old" kind of way
anyways, i would definitely recommend finishing utena, i think it ends super strongly
anyways, i would definitely recommend finishing utena, i think it ends super strongly
The movie is also really great - lots of really cool surreal visuals
the shoe thing?
Something about coffins and pairs of shoes. It was all very obtuse and I assumed relying on cultural references I didn't get. I'm thinking of when there was some weird morbid secret society thing, I may be conflating details of it with something else and synthesizing nonsense trying to remember it. I don't remember much, and I don't remember anything past that, but I have no clue what episode I was on.
ohhh, that was much earlier than i thought. you're about 14 episodes in. i don't think you were necessarily missing anything culturally, that's just where the series starts to get real weird
you're about 14 episodes in
Ok, looking at the episode list I guess that's where that arc starts? Then I remember the cowbell thing which is apparently after. I'll have to poke around at some point to figure it out, once I'm done trying to binge watch sailor moon.
if you have any utena questions feel free to @ or dm m. and i hope you have fun with sailor moon!
i haven't seen crystal or the dub since childhood but I am just posting to let you know the 90s dub of sailor moon was the very first anime I ever saw as a kid (thanks Viz!). I was obsessed to the point where I would wake up at 6:30am on Saturdays to catch it and begged my grandmother to buy me the Sailor Moon action figure doll at wal-mart, which she did (thanks grandma!) and my dad got so mad at this (my mom remembers it as him literally being like '
'my son is not going to play with a doll') that he literally wrenched all the limbs off it and buried it in a hole in the backyard.
his plan didn't really pan out because I still turned out to be a homosexual communistanyways to this day I know the lyrics to the 90s dub opening by heart
begged my grandmother to buy me the Sailor Moon action figure doll at wal-mart, which she did (thanks grandma!) and my dad got so mad at this (my mom remembers it as him literally being like ' 'my son is not going to play with a doll') that he literally wrenched all the limbs off it and buried it in a hole in the backyard.
What the hell??? What makes an action figure "gay"? Is an action figure depicting a woman automatically gay???
I stg heteronormativity (homophobia?) is like a straightjacket that cishet people wear. Must not be perceived as gay!! Must always display gender stereotype!! I can't do that, that's gay!!
not only is it a girl, it's a girl in a dress
this shit is a disease, my parents were mostly chill but even then i'd get some comments about the shows i liked
sailor moon "filler" episodes are the best part of the show. The moon princess/whatever lore is the boring part.
Ya my ex was a huge Sailor Moon head and honestly the slice of life stuff was super fun and charming. the fights and lore I always checked out and started twiddling with my phone. (fun transformation dance sequences though but lose their luster after you see them copy pasted every episode)
Is it just a matter of janky cell animation needing a very specific set of skills that no one today cultivates in order to look good?
Many things were lost in the move from cell to digital. Background painting, some of the weird composition effects you can get by over laying cells on top of each other, things like that.
Mostly due to the sweatshop like conditions they have to churn out new shows. Although, if you watch a modern show by an old school director they'll use the same tricks: compare Ikuhara's work in Sailor moon and Utena to his newer stuff like Penguindrum and Yuri Kuma Arashi, and they compare favourably.
Yuri Kuma Arashi
Is this any good? I've only seen the OP and it looked incredibly horny.
It's not bad, but it's incredibly horny. Literal translation is 'Lesbian Bear Storm', and you kinda get what it says on the tin.
It's not my favourite Ikuhara work (for me it's Penguindrum, sorry Utena fans) because it's kinda 12 episodes of him hitting you over the head with the most explicit metaphors for how much being gay in Japanese society sucks, but admittedly I'm cis so the show will probably hit a lot different to a queer audience. Show's got this gorgeous water-colour/pastel artstyle tho.
I've been meaning to do a Sailor Moon rewatch blog that literally no one will read for years now. Mayyybe I finally should.
i remember loving one of those like a decade ago. the guy did comics and it ended up kind of being fanfiction. he was super into making it all gayer, which was super important to me for reasons i couldn't put my finger on
yeah, i remember him coming up with this whole story about how makoto and ami got together during one episode, and rei and minako were exes and stuff like that
You'll have like at least 5-10 people read it if you post it here (・∀・)
modern tools should make it even easier and faster to use the old stylistic tricks.
I think it's more that modern tools incentivize a different set of time-saving tricks which combine together to give modern 2D animation its distinct look. When you have to actually draw every single frame, then every single frame is the output of an actual artist - but modern tools will have computers draw frames or at least certain details in those frames, which makes them put things on the screen without an artist adjusting it to make it look right.
You can definitely capture the look of older animation with modern tools, but it has to be something you push for from the outset.
Anime doesn't normally use software interpolation for in-betweens, it's usually out-sourced to animators in China, South Korea and the Philippines who are paid at an even more atrocious rate than Japanese animators.
They scan all the frames into the computer rather than take photos (like with cell animation), what they use the computer for is coloring, backgrounds, composition and then obviously effects and cgi- so you're right about what gives modern shows their look, it's the change in material production methods.
don't watch the reboot. they cut the show down to solely the main plot about moon kingdom bullshit, which means all the characters have no relationships with each other and come off like cardboard.
In comparison the first arc of the second season felt like an absolute slog, despite being much shorter - most episodes felt like nothing really happened and the action scenes getting taken over by increasingly long reused move sequences got old fast.
The tree and aliens arc in R was made up for the anime. If I remember right, they had burnt through the content in the comic at that point and had to keep the show going.
of all the anime i watched as a kid, sailor moon is the strangest. it's all a big dream sequence of nothing and the weirdest thing of all is that the giant alien tree is the only thing i truly remember about it.
it's all a big dream sequence of nothing
You should watch Revolutionary Girl Utena if you haven't already. It shares many of the creative leads and is weird dream logic cranked up to max.
That actually makes a lot of sense. It wasn't all bad, but it definitely felt like it was stretching maybe 3-4 episodes of content out over, uh, looks like 12 episodes.
I also keep getting distracted trying to pick out all the little labor saving animation tricks they used and trying to figure out how they managed to make such janky animations actually look decent, as well as wondering why modern low-budget animation can't manage the same effect even though modern tools should make it even easier and faster to use the old stylistic tricks. Is it just a matter of janky cell animation needing a very specific set of skills that no one today cultivates in order to look good?
A major point to consider is that Sailor Moon was a long running weekly show that went on without breaks for years. Shows like that, no matter the era, require more limited animation tricks in order to deliver an interesting visual product because they will have less movement than 10-20 episode seasonal shows . Also idk what you mean by "janky animations" but Sailor Moon actually moves more and has better, less janky animation than most modern shows of similar length and production.
There is truth that some of the techniques used have faded out and that makes it harder for limited or long productions to deliver a pleasing show visually. Stuff like stylized still frames, color swaps, pans, triple takes and more limited comedic acting with great expressions are somewhat of a lost art form. Either because a some were achieved by analog cel photography and their aesthetic doesn't go well with digital colors and computer compositing but mostly because there is market demand to storyboard shows in a flashier way "like other big hits" and bad productions have lost the ability and realism to try and work around their limitations . Also younger generation of artists simply didn't grow up with those aesthetics so they won't try to reproduce it
Another thing to note is that it was simpler to make a competent looking show back then because simple cel photography of hand painted backgrounds its hard to fuck up aestheticaly. Computer compositing gives people way too many tools to fuck up the aesthetic with filters, digital effects, 3d assets etc being heavily used and usually in a bad or rushed ways due to production issues usually since compositing is also the last thing done. That's why there are 10 isekai every season that look like bland ass aestheticaly . They would be equally crap story wise in the 90s and they wouldn't move more but the art direction, backgrounds etc would have looked at worst cool. Same with sailor Moon. It relies on great backgrounds and color design but in a modern paradigm for a long running show that aspect would look worse and blander
Lastly anime productions are in their worst state ever. Its horrid really. 2-3 great looking shows each season hide the fact that the rest are completely broken, taped together in the last minute and rely on armies of inexperienced animators to patch them up. The production process hasn't been simplified by became more and more complex and fragmentated and without a system of mentorship in place the talent required isn't replaced in good rates despite the fact that many people world wide work o anime nowadays.
Also idk what you mean by "janky animations" but Sailor Moon actually moves more and has better, less janky animation than most modern shows of similar length and production.
I'm thinking mainly of how many scenes are just completely dead still except for a few small moving bits and how often animations end up being like one static image that just gets moved through the shot. Or how sometimes the individual drawn figures are clearly flawed in ways I associate with modern amateur-mistakes-to-avoid examples I've seen in art tutorials. I'm struck by the fact that it still looks good despite those rough edges.
I'm not just thinking about professional published materials here, but also short animations done by single people or small teams. Like even where what seem to be the same tricks are getting used, and there's more detail or whatever, it just doesn't make it work. So that's the point I keep distracted by and realizing several minutes later I'd completely tuned out what was going on thinking about the animation, trying to divine what it is that divides sort of rough, stylized animation that looks amazing from rough, stylized animation that looks bad, even when the latter has more things that should be going for it.
Computer compositing gives people way too many tools to fuck up the aesthetic with filters, digital effects, 3d assets etc being heavily used and usually in a bad or rushed ways
Yeah, what really got me started down this rabbit hole was seeing a video a month or so ago from an artist trying to work out a labor efficient way to rotoscope CGI to make it look good instead of horribly jarring and out of place. It left me wondering if modern tools can be synthesized with older techniques to create something that's less labor intensive than the old methods but still looks good in a way that the results of the modern tools generally don't.
Critical support to the Silver Millennium kingdom in its war against various space/time/demon imperialists; the monarchist Queen Serenity gets a pass for using her hereditary phenomenal cosmic powers (from each according to their ability!) to institute luxury gay space communism with crystal spires and togas / 90s Japanese afterschool treats characteristics.
I can't decide if it gets some credit for making him an impossibly perfect passive wish fulfilment object for the main character (and thus does better than the typical anime things where he would be the viewer insert and Usagi would be the viewer wish-fulfilment prize) or if that just makes it worse by narratively contriving to make a relationship that would be extremely creepy and predatory IRL ontologically ok.
Sailor Moon is a shoujo (aka written for/targeted at girls), so it's basically just the standard anime relationship with the genders swapped, thus making it creepy.
Also I thought he went to her school lmao shows how well I remember the show.
Also I thought he went to her school lmao shows how well I remember the show.
The weird thing is that's what I remembered too, but it's actually mentioned several times that he's in college. Since his friend was dating a grad student (I think?) that to me implies that he and the other guy Usagi was crushing on were both like early twenties at the least.
Maybe the original English dub changed some of these details too?
I'm not sure. Apparently in the manga he was 16, and someone put him at 18 in the anime, but then his friend/classmate was dating a grad student (at least I think she was? she was doing research work instead of only being in classes) which makes me think they weren't freshmen and were probably 20-22. His backstory also puts him as just sort of incarnating as a 6 year old orphan with no earlier memories, and one might guess that all the characters were reincarnated at roughly the same time which would make him 6 years older, or 20 as of the show.
Ah! But in Sailor Moon R: Promise of the Rose, in a flashback to when he was in hospital after the car crash, he meets a young Usagi who is there because her mother is in labor with Shingo, her younger brother, who is no less than three years younger than her based on their respective grades at school! Therefore, Mamoru can be at most 17 while she's 14.
