I don't see why anyone needs to be blamed, if this is what everyone wants. To be clear, I'm taking about small age gaps in relationships, around a few years or so. Not the large age gaps. It's something that is prevalent in every society accross the globe, that the man is the older partner and the woman is younger. Maybe it's something to do with evolution or the formation of societies and socialisation, I don't know I'm no expert. All I know is that as a man, if you try to date women older than you, even if it's just a gap of a few years, you're in for a tough time in general.
It's something that is prevalent in every society accross the globe
yes, but so is patriarchy. the sample pool is a little bit tainted. men have been taught that they own women since i honestly don't even know when, the advent of agriculture? the birth of christianity? who fucking knows, but the point is that something being normalized doesn't make it necessarily natural.
I don't know I'm no expert
now this? this i feel. i don't know shit either. luckily we're not setting the laws that dictate age gaps in relationships. this is just conversation.
if you try to date women older than you [...]
ngl this was not my experience in the slightest when i was a boy but i acknowledge that's purely anecdotal and probably its own set of issues. i will say though that yes, of course you're going to receive more societal pushback and all around have a harder time than a 50 year old dad looking for an 18 year old girl to fuck. it's not normalized for men (or masculine people in general,) to desire women older than they are, even if it's a completely normal age gap (whatever that means to you, but let's say something widely regarded as otherwise inoffensive like 3-5 years).
the advent of agriculture? the birth of christianity
it was agriculture at least the Romans literally had sexual assault classified legally as a property damage crime against the woman's husband or father and that was pre-Christianity. If anything Abrahamic religion made Europe better in that regard
I think that people participate consciously in social trends, not unconsciously.
There have been people I've been attracted to but have not even flirted with because they were 19 or 20, and it's important for their social development and balance to have someone to date who's close to them in age (and a mumber of other things).
There was someone I was reluctant to get involved with because they were 7 years older than me, but that was balanced out by other factors like emotional stability.
When men are dating women much younger than themselves, it means there are fewer women for men of that age to date, and it's a sort of domino effect where you end up with very young men and very old women being the most alone.
Age gaps are a very close proxy for patriarchy. Less than 4 years and you can write it off as "maybe boys mature a bit slower. Biology defines a range of possibility and a few proclivities, and the shape of society does most of the guiding. But what is culture if not the sum total of our personal selections? For a very long time, children have grown up with peer groups mostly just a few years in each direction. I think people know when something crosses outside that dynamic, and I think people know that a relationship like that is more transactional than loving.
I think a lot of people are a lot less conscious of the prevailing social and material forces of history that ultimately guide their actions than you give them credit for. I don't think people consciously think about a lot of the social trends they're participating in.
Age gaps are a very close proxy for patriarchy.
So I agree with that. I would argue that that's what I'm saying in general.
But what is culture if not the sum total of our personal selections?
I don't think that's a good materialist accounting of how culture works, is shaped, moves.
I think people know when something crosses outside that dynamic, and I think people know that a relationship like that is more transactional than loving.
My original point was essentially that patriarchal society shapes the socialization of men to view women as objects/fragile. That was to answer your question about age gaps. So I don't see why you made a snarky comment when it seems that you largely agree with me on this. I'm not defending any particular man as being unable to not be the vector of exploitation. I recognize that they are. But that doesn't really answer a question about why that's a trend that we can observe. Not to a materialist like most of the people here anyway. Maybe a liberal could be satisfied fully by writing off the actions of men as an aggregate onto individual cases of them being vectors of exploitation, which I understand to be something that is so pervasive, you'll see people that are otherwise progressive engage wholeheartedly in a misogyny deeply rooted in our violent patriachal cultural. But I don't think you're trying to "be a liberal" about it or whatever.
well...yeah. i am as well. i don't think i was really arguing that we should normalize it. it is normalized i suppose, but that's genuinely part of the reason i don't like going outside. men being men under patriarchy is a gross thing to look at.
Socialization of men in the imperial core is centered on predation and objectification of young women as embodiments of innocence and fragility.
Not really, age gaps are larger outside of the imperial core, with men still being the older partner.
If it is a problem, it's a global societal one.
For real. I've seen 40 year old men with teenagers in Guatemala. That shit's disturbing.
"He's not the vector of exploitation, society made him do it"
Right.
society didn't make them do it, but it did train them to believe that it's acceptable
both the men in question and society as a whole share in the blame
I don't see why anyone needs to be blamed, if this is what everyone wants. To be clear, I'm taking about small age gaps in relationships, around a few years or so. Not the large age gaps. It's something that is prevalent in every society accross the globe, that the man is the older partner and the woman is younger. Maybe it's something to do with evolution or the formation of societies and socialisation, I don't know I'm no expert. All I know is that as a man, if you try to date women older than you, even if it's just a gap of a few years, you're in for a tough time in general.
i wasn't, but i understand that was not explicit.
yes, but so is patriarchy. the sample pool is a little bit tainted. men have been taught that they own women since i honestly don't even know when, the advent of agriculture? the birth of christianity? who fucking knows, but the point is that something being normalized doesn't make it necessarily natural.
now this? this i feel. i don't know shit either.
luckily we're not setting the laws that dictate age gaps in relationships. this is just conversation.
ngl this was not my experience in the slightest when i was a boy but i acknowledge that's purely anecdotal and probably its own set of issues. i will say though that yes, of course you're going to receive more societal pushback and all around have a harder time than a 50 year old dad looking for an 18 year old girl to fuck. it's not normalized for men (or masculine people in general,) to desire women older than they are, even if it's a completely normal age gap (whatever that means to you, but let's say something widely regarded as otherwise inoffensive like 3-5 years).
it was agriculture at least the Romans literally had sexual assault classified legally as a property damage crime against the woman's husband or father and that was pre-Christianity. If anything Abrahamic religion made Europe better in that regard
This is the good take.
Well do you think male biology makes them monsters? Individual choices? Careful, that sounds like conservative speak.
I think that people participate consciously in social trends, not unconsciously.
There have been people I've been attracted to but have not even flirted with because they were 19 or 20, and it's important for their social development and balance to have someone to date who's close to them in age (and a mumber of other things).
There was someone I was reluctant to get involved with because they were 7 years older than me, but that was balanced out by other factors like emotional stability.
When men are dating women much younger than themselves, it means there are fewer women for men of that age to date, and it's a sort of domino effect where you end up with very young men and very old women being the most alone.
Age gaps are a very close proxy for patriarchy. Less than 4 years and you can write it off as "maybe boys mature a bit slower. Biology defines a range of possibility and a few proclivities, and the shape of society does most of the guiding. But what is culture if not the sum total of our personal selections? For a very long time, children have grown up with peer groups mostly just a few years in each direction. I think people know when something crosses outside that dynamic, and I think people know that a relationship like that is more transactional than loving.
I think a lot of people are a lot less conscious of the prevailing social and material forces of history that ultimately guide their actions than you give them credit for. I don't think people consciously think about a lot of the social trends they're participating in.
So I agree with that. I would argue that that's what I'm saying in general.
I don't think that's a good materialist accounting of how culture works, is shaped, moves.
My original point was essentially that patriarchal society shapes the socialization of men to view women as objects/fragile. That was to answer your question about age gaps. So I don't see why you made a snarky comment when it seems that you largely agree with me on this. I'm not defending any particular man as being unable to not be the vector of exploitation. I recognize that they are. But that doesn't really answer a question about why that's a trend that we can observe. Not to a materialist like most of the people here anyway. Maybe a liberal could be satisfied fully by writing off the actions of men as an aggregate onto individual cases of them being vectors of exploitation, which I understand to be something that is so pervasive, you'll see people that are otherwise progressive engage wholeheartedly in a misogyny deeply rooted in our violent patriachal cultural. But I don't think you're trying to "be a liberal" about it or whatever.
Maybe the best way to express my position is that I'm against the normalization of it.
well...yeah. i am as well. i don't think i was really arguing that we should normalize it. it is normalized i suppose, but that's genuinely part of the reason i don't like going outside. men being men under patriarchy is a gross thing to look at.