Not just here, but also on reddit and other social media.
Sure, there is a propaganda war brewing wherein a lot of Western media are pushing exaggerated narratives, Adrian Zenz is a theological dope of an academic, and the CIA has a vested interest in accelerating conflict, etc. but surely there's got to be room to also address the shortcomings of China as well? Whether it's about LGBTQ+ issues, or the exploits of Chinese capitalism, or being able to criticize or make fun of Xi, I see posts here routinely and systemically brigaded and comments downvoted to oblivion that even sniff at criticism of China.
I consider myself a free agent, and China's meteoric rise gives me some hope for a brighter tomorrow (in contrast to the US), but this blatant campaign of social media manipulation gives me pause for concern. It just screams insecurity and makes me not trust what feels like a counter-propaganda narrative. (Mods, please never get rid of the downvote counter.)
Anyway, here's hoping for a brighter future, but please let ideas breathe.
Thanks for listening.
It's because the vast majority of the criticisms of China and Xi Jinping are unsubstantiated horseshit, because condemning China when the US is increasingly antagonizing them is reinforcing imperialist propaganda, and because Reddit and every other damn website is constantly frothing at the mouth over how much they hate China, which a lot of us are sick of.
And what do you mean by "brigading"? That implies that it's being coordinated.
And what do you mean by “brigading”? That implies that it’s being coordinated.
nods
Unless it's one or two overzealous chapos with several sockpuppets, there's some disturbing fluctuations in comment scores.
This is a big thing for me, there is plenty to critisize China for, but most people just whine about whinnie the poo or some dumb made up shit. Come at me with "3 worlds theory is bad" or something like that and then we can have an actual discussion.
Comments that are in the positives that * ahem * tank when the night crew shows up.
I'll start taking screenshots with timestamps to be revealed at the next Geneva Convention.
Oh yeah, reddit is an absolute cesspool. I'll post some milquetoast comment and two days later there's suddenly three replies within an hour of each other, all being aggressively antagonistic.
I think I can count on one hand the amount of times those topics are brought up about China in good faith. Maybe you've seen it more often and seen the brigades more than me
My thing is, why is it always China lol. No one comes into these spaces with scorching hot takes about the LGBTQ rights in Laos or the economic systems of Cuba. It's a lot of CHINA CHINA CHINA, which between the current culture, and trying to deprogram baby leftists, it's really hard to spot good faith discussions/let them grow. And the thing that really sucks is every good China discussion is like 1 rogue comment away from name calling, it's hard to stay on track
My thing is, why is it always China lol. No one comes into these spaces with scorching hot takes about the LGBTQ rights in Laos or the economic systems of Cuba.
Because China's economic and LGBTQ+ circumstances will have a much, much, much more appreciable impact on my life in the coming years than Cuba or Laos.
Oh word, you live in China? I didn't realize, my bad
Don't be obtuse. China is the rising power to the US's established power; of course people are going to scrutinize it more than Laos or Cuba.
If you do not live within China's sphere of power, your day to day life is equally impacted by China or Laos or Cuba lol. It's really not that hard to grasp that. Offering critiques of China does not change its policy, and likely just contributes to the current anti-China narrative
The correct goal of critique here is certainly not to affect Chinese policy; it is to understand and evaluate it in keeping with our continual development as students of historical materialism. China, as the largest, most advanced, most populous, and most prominent socialist country on Earth, is naturally both an important country to study and one that invites curiosity. If we are truly committed to scientific socialism, we really ought not to discourage that.
I understand that. But if your attempts at engaging in scientific socialism causes you to criticize China, and only China, you're not doing it in good faith. Either be critical of every socialist project (in good faith discussions) in order to build your view, or shut the fuck up about China
It is indeed important that we examine many different examples of socialist projects and states in general.
Again, we should encourage leftists of every variety to do so and to do so properly using the tools of historical materialism and dialectics. It is not encouraging to dismiss any inquiry into China as either irrelevant or as bad faith without the inquirer having already demonstrated their analysis of other projects. The Soviet Union and PRC are the first and most obvious states to examine. Yes, a focus on a single state is not sufficient! It quickly becomes clear in material analysis that we cannot understand why a state does one or another thing without also examining the conditions of the moment and the historical conditions that led up to that moment and informed the response, which naturally leads us to broaden our inquiries. In this way, we can both refine our own practice of applying historical materialism and help others do the same.
This is not to say that every question must be engaged with, but it is certainly not harmful on balance to lead people into a more useful way to examine China and, consequentially, all states.
I agree with all this, and sorry I wasn't trying to claim that you need to be critical of multiple countries to have a good faith discussion.
But I do think it is incredibly apparent when someone is having a good faith, scientific-socialism-driven discussion, vs someone wishing to tear down China and using scientific socialism as an excuse to do so. I'm receptive to the first example, and shut down the second on sight.
Seeing how OP brought up China's influence on Disney as a shield for their views, they clearly fall into that second category, and I'm not gonna play nice and let it happen. For me it's more about someone reading the conversation after the fact and what they walk away with. If we allow bad faith discussions to occur because we are afraid of killing good faith ones, we are gonna get a lot of 'leftists' with very warped views and warped justifications for those views.
It's a tough nuance to hit, but I want to see us do it properly, and not just sit back and allow bad faith bullshit to fester in our spaces
I also agree that this thread is framed very poorly and aggressively if it is in fact trying to address this difficult issue. I just finally felt able to organize my thoughts on this meta-discussion.
I've seen good threads on here about specific criticisms of the Soviet Union that ended with a richer understanding of the situation, fewer on China. Ratcheting tensions and a living, contemporaneous state definitely make things more difficult. I hope we can continue to cultivate a healthy culture here that enables considered and constructive discussion while expediently dispelling common misconceptions or deliberate misrepresentations.
If they don't live in Cuba or Laos either, then why are you requesting hot takes?
That wasn't my point. People bring up these criticisms of China and hide behind the claims they are critiquing a socialist country/its policies. But hey isn't that weird, that they are only motivated to critique countries that are currently the target of US imperialism?
If you want to discuss AES countries and their flaws, and you only ever do this for China, just be open and honest and say you hate China for whatever absurd reason and move on
never ask members of the communist party of the philippines why joma maria sison called for attacks on BRI projects which were simultaneously sanctioned by the philippine govt and the USA from the netherlands worst mistake of my life
They increasingly own a lot of media and exert influence around the world. Tencent, Huawei, partnerships with Disney, etc. These things don't happen in a bubble.
China's indirect influence through those pale in comparison to the influences of whatever native country is in question. Like do you really think China's views on LGBTQ+ people, filtered through Disney or Tencent, really makes more of a difference than Disney's own policies, or the cultural hegemon here? We should focus on our own shit
But I want to blame China for Disney's racism and homophobia :( Don't make me face reality.
Little known fact, the Chinese are the reason Walt was an anti-semite. No I won't explain
Tbh as an Asian person living in Asia, i dont care about your opinion on China if you are a westerner, it is irrelevant, regardless of which "side" you are on.
i dont care about your opinion
on Chinaif you are a westernerYou made a mild error, sorry
Sure, there is a propaganda war brewing wherein a lot of Western media are pushing exaggerated narratives, Adrian Zenz is a theological dope of an academic, and the CIA has a vested interest in accelerating conflict, etc. but surely there’s got to be room to also address the shortcomings of China as well?
There you go. I have literally no influence on Chinese policy so offering any criticism, deserved or otherwise adds to the CIA propaganda war. If you don't think the CIA doesn't have people criticizing china from an "ultra-left" perspective just to dissuade people from offering critical support then you are a fool.
"Chinese capitalism" is not my problem as I live in the heart of the imperial hegemon, the U.S. The U.S hegemon murders, exploits, violates, plunders, and pillages countries on a far grander scale than Chinese international companies could. Chinese companies are not denying me healthcare, polluting my city, running roughshod over wetlands, and decreasing flooding prevention in my city. I literally do not have a vested interest in seeing China go down while the U.S is still standing.
I understand the argument you’re making, but isn’t the sentiment that “Chinese capitalism” is not my problem” just a complete abandonment of proletarian internationalism?
Like if you’re drawing your thought from Marx and Engels at the baseline, they are pretty damn clear that “The working men have no country.”
This isn’t an idealist position in either sense of the word—capital doesn’t respect national boundaries and literally treats the working class as an international pool of labor power:
Hundreds of thousands of workers thus wander hundreds and thousands of versts. Advanced capitalism drags them forcibly into its orbit, tears them out of the backwoods in which they live, makes them participants in the world-historical movement and brings them face to face with the powerful, united, international class of factory owners.
- Lenin “Capitalism and Workers’ Immigration”
Just as the development of capitalism leads to an international capitalist class, the working class, too, is an international class, with international class interests. “An injury to one is an injury to all” is not limited to workers of “your” nation: the victories of the working class in China (or Bangladesh or Burkina Faso or Chile or wherever) are the victories of your class, and their defeats are your defeats.
What you lose when you take the position that “Chinese capitalism is not my problem,” is the internationalist perspective that is an essential part of what it means to be a communist—it’s all part of the same struggle, and the solution is an international working class solution.
“The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.”
- Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2
I feel like that argument ignores the material analysis that would need to be made before settling on what needs to be dismantled. American capitalism is the hegemon. It is, in no uncertain terms, the center from which all other systems of capitalist currents flow out of (Read Long Twentieth Century). We are operating in America's world system, a system that ideologically claims to be a free market while imposing tariff and protections to stop other countries from benefiting wholesale from American markets - in the process of "loosening tariffs" the American diplomatic body pressures, and bribes other countries to adopt neoliberal reforms; neoliberal reforms come in the way of laws, and market systems, those economic systems give rise to neoliberal politicians, which oppress and pillage their own people, and rotten cultures that treat their workers as disposable. China opened up to America and had to make certain agreements, like market reforms. Countries that refuse to adhere to these neoliberal policies end up isolated and cut off from other countries unless they are willing to play politik with America's opponents.
So if I am seeking to end capitalism as a whole, and we are really playing by America's rules, what cause do I have to focus on Chinese Capitalism (I'm using your terms, I don't think China is, in my dumbass opinion, wholly capitalist). Especially as someone that lives, breathes, and exists within the imperial core?
Chinese Capitalism (according to you) exists because America exists and sets the rule of the game. Putting pressure and collapsing the American center, pulls the rug on the entire system. If I want to show solidarity with the Chinese worker, then I want them to survive in a stable country (not one balkanized and turned into a warlord's paradise, like America wants to do). I want them to assert their rights to their labor and all it creates without the U.S putting pressure on China to suppress, an alleged, communist reemergence.
Hundreds of thousands of workers thus wander hundreds and thousands of versts. Advanced capitalism drags them forcibly into its orbit, tears them out of the backwoods in which they live, makes them participants in the world-historical movement and brings them face to face with the powerful, united, international class of factory owners.
- Lenin “Capitalism and Workers’ Immigration”
The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.”
- Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2
The headquarters of the international class of factory owners (and financial capital) rests in America. So again, the only way to destroy the system is to advance the collapse in America, insofar as it weakens the leash with which they control other countries and their workers. As someone born in Venezuela and has experienced this firsthand. It's very clear that as long as America exists my people won't have the economic siege warfare placed upon them (see UN Human Rights report on Venezuela) lifted. Thus my criticism should not go towards the Maduro government doing the best it can with the material conditions as controlled by America, but America itself.
I mean, there’s some interesting points in there, but I’m not really persuaded to abandon the Marxist perspective in favor of your analysis.
Capitalism is a world system, but moreover it is a set of productive and social relationships that grew over time into a world-encompassing system. The US is, for the time being, the most dominant capitalist nation within that world system, but it hasn’t always been, and may not always be, given US capitalism is either on the precipice or has already begun its decline. We already see how US imperialism is less effective now than 100 years ago: trade agreements are not so one-sided, the US hasn’t decisively won a war in decades, regional powers Outside of the US sphere are exerting more influence in places like the Middle East.
America sets some of the ground rules for how capitalism operates, but again, capitalism predates the US dominance of the system and, to some extent, does not require the US to dominate the system.
If I want to show solidarity with the Chinese worker, then I want them to survive in a stable country
More than that, I want the working class in China to take power, just like I want the working class in Italy to take power, or Chile, or South Africa. I want the international working class taking power and building international socialism, because that is the only way to transform and overthrow the existing international capitalist order. We need not only an international perspective, but international coordination.
The headquarters of the international class of factory owners (and financial capital) rests in America
I mean, a good bulk of capital is based in the US, but this is mostly plainly incorrect. Of the 10 largest companies in the world by revenue, only 2 are based in the USA. Many large companies not only operate globally but are conglomerations of capital from different nations. The company that makes Budweiser, the quintessential American beer, is actually a conglomerate of US/Brazilian/Dutch capital, and has headquarters in all three nations.
Thus my criticism should not go towards the Maduro government doing the best it can with the material conditions as controlled by America, but America itself.
How are you appraising that the Maduro administration is “doing the best it can?”
two day old account with 10 out of 17 comments committed towards starting shit
hmm yes I think I should care
damn, i feel foolish for upvoting this and thinking this thread was in good faith lol
Back in my days it was called a struggke session, you fool, respect our traditions of starting shit up
Honestly...why shouldn't they?
What's the point in being critical of China when the entire apparatus and society around you is quadrupling down on that effort?
You can be neutral if you want. Just remember that if 95% of the population has an opinion value of -50, and you have a neutral "I'm so enlightened and criticize everything" value of 0, the average isn't 0. Instead it ends up being -49. (and that's generous, since way less than 5% of the population actually has fair views on China)
First of all leftists being critical of China on leftist forums is completely irrelevant to imperialist policy towards China. Secondly you can be critical of the path China is pursuing without advocating for regime change, just like you can be critical of religious fundamentalism in Iran without advocating for any action on the part of the American MIC and their allies. Otherwise it's too close for comfort to the "shut up and vote for the lesser evil" rhetoric that stifles any analysis and debate.
I see your point, but when you're exposed to the sheer amount of hypocrisy/violence and reality-denial of white westerners, it becomes hard to suppress the amygdala. That's just how humans work. Not reacting emotionally takes energy.
Eventually that energy budget is surpassed and "China good no matter what" because fuck it, 99% of the world is shitting putrid diarrhea out of their mouths anyway. They go low, you eventually go low as well, or else you will be driven insane. For the record, that's where I stand, both on a rational level and when I feel outburst-y.
Otherwise it’s too close for comfort to the “shut up and vote for the lesser evil” rhetoric that stifles any analysis and debate.
this is a false equivalence, it assumes every lesser evil is lesser by the same amount.
Biden is barely better than trump. The only way he's better is he says less overt dogwhistle racist shit. Harris is just as bad. Biden would be as bad if not worse globally.
China on the other hand, is leagues and leagues and leagues better than the west. And no, the US is not the analogy to China, but rather the entire west. The US is just a small fraction of the west, which population-wise is equivalent to China.
The west administered a continental-scale genocide on hundreds of millions of Americans. They emitted 90% of our current CO2 burden. They committed 95% of animal extinctions/declines of the last century. They starved 100,000,000+ across Africa and India and SEAsia, and are responsible for the early deaths of billions of people suffering the effects of colonialism to this day. The west owns 60% of world GDP, China owns 15%.
Now contrast with China's crimes, which are...they might be putting 1,000s of Uyghurs in reeducation camps, at least if you believe the nazi cryptofascist Zenz who is the sole source of this entire rumor. So we have thousands as opposed to BILLIONS, being reeducated as opposed to EXTERMINATED, and even this comparatively benign accusation comes from a literal fascist nazi who unironically believes that white Jesus will magically pop out of Krakatoa and smite the CCP--meaning it's probably bullshit.
China is MULTIPLE orders of magnitude preferable to and more blameless than the west. It's the same as comparing Jeff Bezos+BillGates+Musk to an office worker who makes $50k. Sure, you can be critical of the office worker because he lives in a nice-ish house, or eats steak, but this issue literally could not fucking matter in any conceivable way whatsoever when compared to the scale of what's happening above it.
Dude, I'm with you on all the bad faith propagandistic critique and outright lies against China. I'm with you on orders of magnitude difference between China and the West vs. Biden and Trump. I'm with you on the undeniable preferability of Chinese managed capitalism (or "socialism with Chinese characteristics" as they call it) as opposed to outright genocidal and ecocidal Western capitalism. And above all I'm with you on never legitimising the imperialist onslaught against China and the push for its re-colonisation. In fact I don't think any leftist who's not a cloud dwelling idealist would find any of this controversial or even worthy of discussion. The issue here when I say that uncritical admiration of China reeks of propagandistic bad faith lesser evilism is that any discussion about China in leftist spaces is never purely a discussion about China but also automatically a discussion about the future of socialism. Quo vadis? And it would be foolish to just bury your head in the sand and engage in a "China got it all sorted out and taken care of, let's just wait for them to save us all" prophecy mongering because no, China doesn't look like how we want a socialist society to ultimately look like but is rather a (admittedly clever and seemingly successful) response to material pressures, a subversive strategy to dealing with an imperialist siege. It also fosters a culture based on blind faith and subordination, rather than a free thinking scientific approach of how we get from here to there and what being "there" might entail.
Hope my reply doesn't come off hostile, it certainly wasn't intended to and I apologize beforehand if any comrades get that impression.
And it would be foolish to just bury your head in the sand and engage in a “China got it all sorted out and taken care of, let’s just wait for them to save us all” prophecy mongering because no, China doesn’t look like how we want a socialist society to ultimately look like
Well if it's just this type of more "theoretical" based criticism, as you say, then that's different from the accusation type criticism I was imagining. Yeah I think it's fine to talk about what China should or should not do better from that angle. As long as they still keep in mind that China is leagues closer to anything resembling working socialism than any other powerful country on earth.
It also fosters a culture based blind faith and subordination, rather than a free thinking scientific approach of how we get from here to there and what being “there” might entail.
Is that different from any other country? And even if it was (which I don't know), is blind faith necessarily always a bad thing?
It seems to me that if the culture is too free-thinking, then you'll get many different proposals on how to do something, which could lead to bickering and lack of group coherence. Or it could simply end up picking the best method, if it works the right way.
Also I think many people perceive the Chinese as less free-thinking, when really they simply have less of a need to be free-thinking. Because their government actually looks out for them to some extent, they need not parttake in the free thinking that goes on in Black nationalist movements or anti-imperial movements or whatnot. Their mind is freed up for other, more productive pursuits, and they lead a more stress-free life in that aspect.
Ultimately this is a pretty subjective and debatable thing, but one fact is that blind obedience IS necessary in certain contexts, at the very least. For example in the absence of such obedience you'd have huge trouble running an army or even building a real communist movement.
Just to clarify: the "blind faith" thing was in regards to certain fanatical China stans and not towards China itself. I'm pretty sure there are enough free thinkers to go around in China.
As to the rest, yeah it's a difficult topic. We certainly will need both faith to a certain extent (though hopefully not blind) and subordination to get things going. The question is how to use those tools without the tools consuming the aims and hollowing out what we originally set out to do (as I would argue has happened in the past in socialist countries to a greater or lesser extent). The discussion about accountable management and organisational systems, in-built checks and balances, avoidance of mission creep, etc. is a very necessary discussion.
Is it already the time for this one again?
Western leftist criticisms of China are largely completely pointless, and only contribute (however slightly) to harmful propaganda narratives.
Many western leftist have lost their faith in the people in their own countries and seek hope from identifying with China. This creates the reactions you can see online, but way more importantly is misanthropic and reactionary. Not good.
Conclusion: please stop chinaposting.
Many western leftist have lost their faith in the people in their own countries and seek hope from identifying with China.
This is what makes me think the western Xi stans are fooling themselves and that this is just a massive cope. The alternative is an extremely hopeless scenario in which there is no immediate prospect of the restoration of a true socialist hegemon to counterbalance the US's batshit scorched-earth imperialism. This is the reality western Trots have been living in for almost a fucking century (and some western Maoists, for nearly half a century) and they still attempt to organize and party-build in the belly of the beast in conscious spite of the extremely bleak conditions in front of them, trying to cobble together the post-Cold-War ruins of old working-class coalitions in the firm belief that world socialism is still demonstrably possible, without any expectation of aid from a friendly foreign power.
I would love to be proven wrong about my pessimism w.r.t. Xi walking his talk, purging the Dengists as soon as possible, cracking down on the CCP's billionaire members, and playing an active role in aiding international revolution as the US collapses. But I have a hard time imagining any counterfactual scenario in which the western Xi and CCP stans don't spend at least a couple decades in denial, and march right into the same opportunist pitfalls the old Capital-C Communist Parties did (opportunism, entryism into succdem and neoliberal coalitions, popular frontism, etc.), followed by further Dengist degeneration under the weight of capitalist siege and a collapse triggering the same existential crisis and sense of crushing defeat that followed the destruction of the USSR in the '90s.
yeah, i remember there was a popular post on here that was something like "Why doesn't China have good gay rights?" and then it expanded into meming about "why doesn't rojava have gay rights" and so on, but like, tons of people who defend china against zenz lies were openly saying shit like "yeah china isn't perfect, this is on par with asian countries including japan but it's not enough" me included in that. There was some downbears cuz tbh it seemed the title of the post sounded pretty inflammatory shit-stirry (why is China bad? ) but i upbeared bc i think it's important to be honest and open about the faults of every government, so we can do better when it's our turn. Inshallah and so on.
Exactly. Forced job training/language school is by no means greater but is x1000 a better strategy than our "war on terror". So yeah, hypocracy is part of the issue as well, and we see it still today like when recently the ultra Woke Macron introduced initiatives against "Islamist Speratism," which im sure will go well in a place that sees burqas as too much (again, America's not better though, it just show how all silly all these colonizers fighting a war against the same terrorists we used to fund and radicalized through our Imperialism).
i dunno, ive seen plenty of good faith convo among leftists about china but it is a touchy subject since there are some leftists who uncritically swallow and parrot radio free asia and adrian zenz.
social media manipulation
I'm have Robert Mueller and James Comey ready to answer your questions about evil chinese hacking our tiny website to make people downvote your bad takes, they say it goes all the way to Putin
