I never get tired of 'em. I know we've discussed this before. I know the process is ongoing, not necessarily based on a single event, and depends a lot on your position in society. If discussing the radicalization of others, don't mention any methods unless people specifically told you that certain things radicalized them.

For me, I was a left-liberal for most of my life. Long story short, I ran in a state senate election trying to be as friendly to everyone as possible. The one thing I really wouldn't budge on was universal health care, since I knew from experience that it worked. I lost my election BADLY to a guy who ran on no platform at all, although he had much better name recognition. I worked so hard on that campaign and really was devastated and had to look for answers. Stupid as it sounds, at around that time I found the r/chapotraphouse subreddit and started listening to the podcast. That led to me listening to much better podcasts (like Revleft Radio), reading actual theory, and giving up on the Chapo podcast entirely once Bernie lost the last primary.

I'm always trying to radicalize others but I just usually get nowhere. George Floyd's death plus coronavirus I think resulted in a lot of people reconsidering things, but it seems like many of them have kind of swung back in the other direction now, at least as far as I can tell from watching my friends on Facebook. I've been arguing with my lib dad for months about all of this shit, with the result that he has actually gotten much better at deflecting Marxist points than the average lib lol. Sometimes I can get him to admit that everything is fucked and that Marxism is the only answer, at other times he'll say that we need to make friends with local business owners (some of the worst fucking people in the universe) and not alienate them.

Anyway, if you feel like writing your radicalization story or the radicalization stories of others, I'm happy to read.

  • Mehrunes_Laser [comrade/them, any]
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    I unionized my a fair portion of my freshman class in highschool to stand against bullying. This was all pre-cellphone, but post-911. I had gotten nearly 3/4 (it was a fairly small school) of my class to stand against bullying, and we had broken up several figths successfully. We had meetings, and wore badges that had anti-bully messages on them so we could identify each other and stand in solidarity.

    Then I was suddenly accused of being the ring leader of a dangerous gang.

    Everything I had in my locker, every scrap of paper, every assignment I turned in was suddenly used to build a case against me. Every single bully we had stopped testified against us. They had the police interrogate me. They dragged my parents in and took their testimonies. I was called a terrorist. I was called a criminal. Eventually I was suspended for the remainder of the year, and I wasn't welcome back.

    It was a traumatic experience. I had to sit in front of armed police officers as a teenager and vouch for every single scrap of paper in my locker. The fact I like chess was proof I was a mastermind and a manipulator. There were stupid homework assignments I had to do that were suddenly a secret code that I had to answer for. They searched my home. They were trying build a case against me as a terrorist on the behest of the superintendent of the school district because they thought it would make their career.

    In the end I ended up with a GED and a life long distrust of authority. I'm still unpacking the trauma of doing something arguably 100% good, and being met with such hostility. I still have issues with privacy, and I'm having anxiety that I've doxxed myself with this.

    And all of this is nothing compared to others that have responded. Either way, fuck bullies.

    • unperson [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      Fuck bullies, you did nothing wrong. :red-fist:

      Something similar happened to me in university, except I was kangaroo courted as a drug trafficker. The dorms had a fairly big drug problem, but that's because of the punishing 80 hour a week curriculum, not the students' union.

      • Mehrunes_Laser [comrade/them, any]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Thanks man. It sucks how fast the status quo will snap back at any opposition. But I guess that means you're doing something right.

        • shitshow [any]
          ·
          4 years ago

          Out of curiosity, are you a PoC? I don't think the police have ever gone that far to prosecute a white teenager for anything.

          • Mehrunes_Laser [comrade/them, any]
            ·
            edit-2
            4 years ago

            Nope. Just a nerdy white kid who was tired of bullies. This was in a small town in post 911 america. The police didn't have enough to to do, so everyone was a potential terrorist.

            America was super weird. Still is.

    • duderium [he/him]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      That’s fucking insane. Maybe the authorities sensed that you would figure out that THEY were the bullies sooner or later? There’s not a lot they can do if an entire student body is unionized and refuses to go to school.

  • QuillQuote [they/them]
    ·
    4 years ago

    I've shared this before but am happy to do so again:

    I found this community (and leftism in general) the night of the 2020 Iowa Caucus. I took a bus to Iowa twice to canvass door to door, the second time was on the day of the caucus so I had a several hour long bus ride home that evening, when results should have started to trickle out, but everything was strange. Bus full of 40 very motivated bernie supporters all scouring the internet to figure out what was happening and we couldn’t find anything.

    So when I got home around 11 or midnight I kept looking until I happened across chapo (having never heard of it) while searching, and what I saw was posts on posts explaining what was happening, why it was happening, examples of past events I’d never been taught about where similar things happened, and clearly this was no surprise to anyone. It was eye opening. It was all right there, the pieces necessary to build the conclusion I was being presented with, and I’d never been told about any of this. So when everything checked out, so my only option was to accept that as a valid interpretation, and then as I kept looking I just saw more and more of them.

    I also saw some fun memes, people genuinely supporting each other, posts talking about helping people not punishing others, and the line “To each according to their need, from each according to their ability.” I cried after seeing that quote and reading the comments of people discussing it. And then made my first post, something like “Hey I’m new here but I think I like this place!” Within the first couple days I realized that I’d been brainwashed all my life and that the ‘evils’ of socialism/ communism were at the very least overblown. By the end of the first week I knew I was at very least some form of communist, and since then I’ve decided to just sit back and enjoy the ride, not try too hard to do stuff like label my tendency or work out an opinion on china or any of that shit, doesn’t matter to the actual good I can accomplish locally with what I have learned y’know?

  • kristina [she/her]
    ·
    4 years ago

    my grandparents were commies and my parents are conservatives. i always liked my grandparents more. i'm not really a tankie, im more just a plain marxist. i had an anarchist phase but started to take to heart what my grandparents said and synthesized it

  • thelasthoxhaist [he/him]
    cake
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    i was a centrist Putin stan that only watch RT and anything anti-american, all i knew of soviet history was that lenin good everyone else bad, i also watch the anti-sjw channels like a guy who used a kangaroo avatar.

    after the refugee crisis and crimea crisis, i realise the channels i watch were very racist specialy against black people, i always believe people were influence by their enviroment, but these channels claim blacks and refugees were bad because they wanted to.

    so I realise they were fascist, and i never liked liberalism because of my anti-americanism, so i was left with the russia staning, eventually i realise Putin was kinda cringe, so i just care about latin-american politics and history, then reading about my parents country of chile and the history of Mexico i saw the oppression of the communists by the state.

    so i read soviet history were i thought communist came from, and i just click, it make sense why America was so evil, and why the western fascist blame everything on minorities, and most importanly why latin america was the way it was.

    It was the fucking capitalist class messing with the rest of the world for money.

    I became a marxism who like Khrushchev and thought stalin bad, eventually i realise all the death counts were bullshit (thanks to the chapo sub at that time) and i started liking both stalin and mao

    and thats how i went from Centrist Putin stan to M-L Stalin stan

    • furryanarchy [comrade/them,they/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      4 years ago

      I started to fall into those weird alt-right channels for a while, but something always made me feel uneasy about them. I agreed with their views mostly (due to being uninformed and not realizing how much important information they left out about everything they talked about), but was weirded out about how passionate and hateful they were about things that didn't matter that much. Eventually I saw one of those channels slip the mask off a bit and show one of those videos of black people rioting edited to make them look as scary as possible, with the color settings messed up so their facial features melt together and they look creepy. It was shown as background footage when they were talking about muslim immigrants, and it made me realize what was actually going on.

      • thelasthoxhaist [he/him]
        cake
        ·
        4 years ago

        yeah, to me it was something similar, they were super into that their culture was wrong and stuff, and when someone would bring up that europe did shitty stuff they would always deflect by saying, they were civilizing people and they were on the right and i guess because of my anti-americanism i just started seeing them as just a bunch of crying westerners

  • krothotkin [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Participated in a research project where we interviewed folks who had been evicted from apartments. This usually involved going into public housing projects to interview people in their homes, which I think made people more comfortable with sharing.

    There's only so many times you can hear stories about not being able to make rent because you broke your leg and had to pay medical expenses, or getting behind because your two minimum wage jobs still can't afford the new gentrification-driven rent level, before you start realizing how fucked everything is. These were people who had worked their ass off just to try and have a place to sleep at night and food for their kids. It's not their fault that ambulances cost stupid amounts of money or that you can't get anything more than $7.25 an hour to work jobs in their community. One injury, one car accident, one thing goes wrong, and you're out on the street.

    There's a person who has really stuck in my mind. This person used some kind of oxygen machine owing to a medical condition and had trouble walking. He'd been evicted because he couldn't afford to pay both rent and his treatment costs. He had no family. When we interviewed him, he said he was about to have the power shut off at his apartment because he couldn't afford his electrical bill anymore. His machine needed power to run. He didn't know what he was going to do. We gave him a couple of numbers to call, but god knows if he's even still alive now.

    These experiences absolutely made me look at the current system with hateful eyes. Read a little theory, started listening to the podcast to hear their Epstein coverage, and now I'm here.

    • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
      ·
      4 years ago

      There’s only so many times you can hear stories about not being able to make rent because you broke your leg and had to pay medical expenses, or getting behind because your two minimum wage jobs still can’t afford the new gentrification-driven rent level, before you start realizing how fucked everything is.

      How a sociologist like Matthew Desmond can spend months living with the most exploited people in the country, write a book about it that wins a Pulitzer, and then have the audacity to continue to be a raging liberal with full trust in the system really blows my fucking mind. I'm glad to know that some researchers have a real change of heart when faced with these conditions.

  • Yun [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Parents are Chinese. Dad is very pro-China and as I was growing up, he would often bring up stuff that Canadian/Western media left out of their anti-China narratives like about Mao and also the Free Tibet thing around the time of the Beijing Olympics.

    Fast-forward to last year where I - as someone who:

    1. was pretty disinterested in politics cause of the stupid shit I had seen over the years
    2. had a generally positive view of China and was very wary of when Western media portrays it negatively
    3. used reddit fairly regularly

    -was bombarded by endless amounts of the Hong Kong protest bs and the massive amounts of sinophobia and blind support that accompanied it. That along with Xinjiang and COVID, drove me to seek out spaces/voices that pushed back against this stuff. Was also curious about how other asian diaspora was dealing with all this and so I eventually came across Plan A Magazine which exposed me to two twitter users:

    https://twitter.com/diaspora_is_red - who coined the term "boba liberal"

    and

    https://twitter.com/catcontentonly - who was calling out blatantly racist media articles

    Looking at their profiles and also that of Ian Goodrum https://twitter.com/isgoodrum which I had come across early on, I was like damn these super based people are all communists so I went to check out communist twitter/reddit, ended up sticking around, and now I'm no longer disinterested in politics. Still need to actually read theory but yeah I'm pretty much sold.

  • Nagarjuna [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Some important primers:

    -hippy parents teaching me anti essentialism and anti imperialism from the get go.

    -seeing anti democrat, anti republican signs at Iraq war protests and realizing that was possible.

    -seeing a SAlt campaign flyer and realizing you were allowed to want things like "more money" and "less rent"

    -anti obama repubs totally taking the edge off the word socialist

    -seeing Cuban revolutionaries ripping down billboards and collectivizing property on an anticommunist documentary and thinking "that's possible? That's pretty neat"

    -going to an alternative public school where they let students run the budget and do hiring and review and seeing that shit wasn't falling apart at the seems and was actually... better?

    And finally...

    Going on reddit where I was exposed to Libertarian Socialist Rants who espoused the first left wing position that resonated with me the whole way through (after being exposed to various flavors of trot, titoist, mlm, all the best /r/socialism had to offer). I've since grown away from that, more towards anarchism as a base with Marx, the situationists, and modern academic theory as influences, but that classic Rockerian Syndicalism is what got me here.

    • shitshow [any]
      ·
      4 years ago

      going to an alternative public school where they let students run the budget and do hiring and review and seeing that shit wasn’t falling apart at the seems and was actually

      Wait that's a thing? Like did you vote on new hires?

      • Nagarjuna [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        I didn't personally, instead I was on a committee that identified needs for the school and delegated them to other committees, and on a committee dedicated to doing anti racist education of the student body.

        The hiring committee did the whole thing. They'd start the year with a training, then when a position opened up, they'd take input from students and staff and write up interview questions and vote on who to fill the spot with. Both teachers and students had a vote, but students outnumbered teachers by quite a bit.

  • Baron [any]
    ·
    4 years ago

    I was the usual "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" type in college: well meaning but completely politically ignorant, and center left for any real policy value. Then /r/cth started popping memes elsewhere during the 2016 election and I realized that fiscally conservative is a crock of shit. Kept tilting further left as I actually learned what a liberal is and that the political spectrum isn't binary.

    Eventually got in on theory independently (stop telling people to read theory and instead give them excerpts with explanations folks) and now I'm on board with bread daddy and the destruction of the state. Intersectional liberation is the only liberation.

    • Baron [any]
      ·
      4 years ago

      Mine is pretty similar. I doubt I would have fallen down the gamergate pit because of the internal contradictions but reactionary bullshit was definitely a vector to be worried about until more diverse viewpoints on the left became visible.

    • BattlemechPotemkin [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      I had socialist sympathies before Gamergate, but fell hard for the anti-sjw bait. I got addicted to being angry and starting slipping down the alt-right pipeline. Gamergate started to stall out so I tried focusing on school and fun stuff. When I came back to KotakuInAction I noticed how many fucking Nazis there were.

      Lindsay Ellis got me started on Breadtube. Three Arrows, InnuendoStudios and Contrapoints helped me grow out of some chud opinions I retained. I started radicalizing when I saw how dirty the Democrats did Bernie in 2016. Podcasts helped even more. Citations Needed helped me to wade through bullshit and SRSLY Wrong to start thinking about how things could be instead.

      Every time I think I am radical some new experience seems to push it further along. The latest big bump was working for a state unemployment agency. So much suffering is avoidable, so much of it is by design. I'm getting better about handling anger addiction, but at least it's about important things and not stupid video game shit.

  • VILenin [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    this was from a comment I left in a thread yesterday but I guess it works here

    I said in a comment like a month ago that my family was a collection of insufferable bougie assholes. I meant that literally. Two of my close relatives were and might still be millionaires, the vast majority of their wealth earned from being ghouls for hire for corporations looking to crush any lawsuit filed against them. Not gonna name anything specific here cause I don’t wanna dox myself, but one of these involved a voice actor being fired for getting too old to voice a certain role. This actor sued, but guess what, here comes the corporate lawyers. No tactics are too dirty or underhanded for these people. They have zero empathy and are soulless ghouls. They fucking crushed that person. The only way these people could be any worse is if they were pinkertons. These people are the gears that grind any victim of capitalism that gets a little too uppity into a fine powder. The dinner table was a constant outpouring of the most ghoulish sentiment imaginable. Pure hatred and contempt for the working class. Fucking monsters, all of them.

    Does money just turn off basic empathy? Ironically it was being surrounded by these bourgeois ghouls and future ghoul trust fund babies at an insufferable private school (hell on earth for me. Extreme social anxiety and having basic human decency is not a great combo at these kinds of places. one kid killed himself because of the cruel hyper competitive environment.) that radicalized me. In short, having basic human decency made me a class traitor.

    The thought that I could’ve ended up as one of these soulless capitalist ghouls is frightening. I know basically every other kid at my school did (fucking entrepreneurs, self made with the help of a few hundred thousand from their parents.) Even 15 year old me could think “this is bullshit. These people are fucking monsters.” I guess I was the odd one out in that I didn’t have every ounce of empathy and humanity beaten out of me. The world is so fucking cruel.

    tldr my family was a collection of bourgeois capitalist pigs (literally; my uncle was a factory owner and my parents were landlords) and I was a contrarian (because I was constantly surrounded by these people) so I kinda started off just to spite them, but unlike my relatives I'm not a horrible person so it became serious.

    Also another relative of mine writes anti-China op-eds for a conservative rag. Shitty people all the way down.

      • VILenin [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        4 years ago

        It does, I guess. Maybe this is like the children of Marxists being capitalist ghouls but the opposite.

  • anarchokamalism [none/use name]
    ·
    4 years ago

    I worked in commissioned retail, I needed money as I was getting ready to move out, buy a car, all that good stuff. Picked up lots of overtime, got good sales, first commission check is fucking tiny after the hiring team hyping up how much money I could make and me volunteering for extra shifts so I approach the manager and he explains:

    Oh well your commission is based on 2% of the profit and that's only if you sell the extended warranty and the addons, so it does all add up. I saw I made $15,000 profit (since this was all posted on a whiteboard and emailed to every manager weekly) in one month and I "earned" $250 and I remember looking at this shitty commission cheque and thinking

    "Karl Marx was right"

  • PermaculturalMarxist [they/them]
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago
    • Immigrant lib parents taught me to be anti-authoritarian, think for yourself, all powerful people are crooks, etc.

    • Public school sucked and stoked the anti-authoritarian views I had until I got old enough to be a counter-culture type "alt" kid. Around this time, Arab Spring and later Occupy were happening so I absorbed that kind of vague, individualist anarchist politics but mostly just aesthetically

    • Brief libertarian detour after I took my first econ class in high school with a Friedman nut.

    • Started taking history with a Marxist (of the revisionist sort) teacher and my politics shifted into a kind of common-sense social democracy and, despite still disliking communism, I became very skeptical of anti-communism and of American hegemony.

    • Early college I was a kind of an apolitical Bernie-crat (if that makes sense) but then I met some radlibs who got me to get politically involved and I became involved in my local Democratic Party's progressive wing.

    • When we would link up with local orgs on campaigns is when I started becoming aware of the local anti-fascist scene. I felt my local chapter wasn't really being pushed left so I broke off and just kind of hung around the more radical leftists in my area for a while, which shifted the conceptual terrain from "how much means-tested aid should people get if they can't find a job after a year?" to "is a Dictatorship of the Proletariat necessary to safguard the revolution?; is Bernie a crypto-commie or a regular socdem?"

    • Was a libertarian socialist for a while after this change, but was always around MLs so I never got super into tankie-bashing. I joined an org that was super local and horizontal and that was a mess and taught me the limits of prefigurative politics and anti-hierarchy as a means unto itself.

    • Then I read Bookchin and got into dialectics and joined another org which was more centralised and of the "base-building" variety. Here I got more organising chops but stopped caring so much about adhering to a specific theory and became a big "left unity" type and started calling myself just a socialist.

    Cue the pandemic, Bernie's campaign being crushed, BLM protests, and my own personal life being overturned. The limits of my politics until then became clear. I saw the limits of mutual aid, of rent strikes, of labour organising by itself, of the lack of a vanguard party. I also saw vicious opportunism arise in my local area with anarchists joining the chorus of far-right reactionaries tearing into some organisers in the area for their position on AES during the critical weeks after the protests broke out and their org was providing support to protesters. My poltics had already taken a big Marxist turn from what I was reading on the side (political economy books on Africa, Fanon, Freire, bits of Mao), but this accelerated the process by giving me a real life example of the kind of thing I would later learn Lenin wrote a whole lot about. I learned that either these people were ignorant to the point of negligence, or were actively wrecking the efforts in the area, but in either case they were doing the Feds work. Cue a bunch of soul searching, reading, and discussing, and now I am an ML.

  • FRIENDLY_BUTTMUNCHER [she/her]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Was a bit of a gamer as a teenager. Had a vague understanding of Gamergate as being about 'ethics in video game journalism', was subscribed to /r/tumblrinaction and /r/imgoingtohellforthis. Read about FBI crime statistics once and figured 'oh hey that makes sense I guess'. Luckily I never fell deeper into that rabbit hole, and I kinda drifted away from those communities. I stumbled upon a Lindsay Ellis video one day, and it was This one about Feminism in Transformers. It made me re-evaluate a lot of positions I used to hold. Watched more videos, then was introduced to Contrapoints, and then Chapo. I joined the subreddit because I thought some of the memes were funny, and I stuck around when I realized the criticisms of liberalism were valid. It was like I was surrounded by people who could actually see what was going on in society for the first time. Decided then to read theory so I could be like all these cool people.

  • lvysaur [he/him]
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    Started in the 2000s, started seeing the light around 2014 or so

    I'm an INTP internet shutin, so my main foray with the right was in race realism and anthropology.

    Uncritically accepted what was being said because there were studies that ostensibly backed some of it up. Meanwhile, the left basically poo-poo'd any discussion of this stuff whatsoever. So my impression was that the left was "afraid of truth" or w/e

    However, I began to notice that some of the things that I discovered made the right really angry or were heavily downvoted, despite the fact that I cited sources, data etc.

    Also noticed that certain avenues of thought were strictly forbidden (IE: the effect that environmental factors can have, for example on a trait like height, among others)

    Eventually I put 2 and 2 together and realized everything they say was just a cope for white insecurity/idpol. Now I'm a leftist with an extravagantly broad knowledge about the anthropology which is still verboten in liberal circles. But w/e.

    I still maintain that if the left had a widespread interest in it, anthropology and "race realism" could be used as a force to combat white identity politics. If you know anything at all about the subject (rather than the propaganda the right puts out) it's really the logical conclusion of it.

    • duderium [he/him]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      If you’re interested in sharing some sources I’d like to take a look.

      • lvysaur [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        4 years ago

        I can't give you a really good source because there is basically no source that explains this stuff at a basic level accessible to laymen. The ones that do (pop science rags) omit key facts or spin stuff in order to appeal to European bias.

        For example, every time a thing gets found in Europe, there's a new "HUMANS MIGHT HAVE ORIGINATED IN EUROPE" headline, because the hordes of chuds want to see the African origin of Homo sapiens denounced. So the popsci rags tacitly spin things in order to get more chud views.

        I've been thinking about making a website or youtube channel or something along those lines, but there's a problem.

        The problem is that I would be pointing out a lot of eurocentrism/eurocope, which turns off white people in general.

        But at the same time, I would be talking about genes, anthropology, ancestry as a genetic construct, and I think that turns off leftists in general. So effectively my material would cockblock me from my two main audiences

        • Reversi [none/use name]
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          4 years ago

          Do it anyway

          Gotta retake the domain somehow, you're the man for the job

          • lvysaur [he/him]
            ·
            4 years ago

            Yeah, I've been working on my video editing skills. I know that I have to be the change I wish to see in this world.

            I meant it as a problem that must be overcome, didn't mean to sound defeatist and say that I'm explicitly not doing it because of that.

            • Reversi [none/use name]
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              4 years ago

              So to look at this a bit more closely:

              It seems like as long as you very clearly delineate the original intent of race science--and point out the certain figures like Charles Darwin and Franz Boas, the gods of their fields, were anti-racist, you'll make headway. Further, if you point out the flaws of popular ideas of race science and re-establish it as something more factual and more 'neutral,' you'll get through to them.

              Liberals love science as an aesthetic already. You're halfway there.

              • lvysaur [he/him]
                ·
                edit-2
                4 years ago

                It seems like as long as you very clearly delineate the original intent of race science–and point out the certain figures like Charles Darwin and Franz Boas, the gods of their fields, were anti-racist

                Charles Darwin wasn't an anti-racist though, unless I'm severly mistaking something. I remember many explicitly racist passages from darwin

                I do believe that a minority of the work done by race "scientists" of the 1800s-1900s may have been legitimate, but it's very hard to tell which those are. Additionally, even if the work was unbiased a huge deal of it is confounded by environmentally changeable variables (for instance just getting proper food causes North Koreans to shoot up from 5'4" to 5'9" in just two generations--even though there's still a huge lack of calcium even in the South Korean diet)

                • Reversi [none/use name]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  Not anti-racist, you're right--I was thinking anti-slavery. But you get the idea.

        • duderium [he/him]
          hexagon
          ·
          4 years ago

          It doesn’t turn me off at all. I find it all fascinating. Have you heard of Richard Lewontin or Christopher Caudwell? They both have a lot to say about this.

      • lvysaur [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        4 years ago

        https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Chao_Ning4/publication/334706747/figure/fig2/AS:784900378607616@1564146241938/PCA-and-ADMIXTURE-Analysis-for-Shirenzigou-Samples-We-projected-the-ancient-data-in-this.png

        Comparison of ancient and modern DNA. Each color is a genetically distinct group. (Of course, genetic variation is a spectrum gradient--but at the same time there were localized periods of stark isolation and small population size which formed highly distinct gene patterns, which we know as "ancestry")

        Notice that the geographically peripheral peoples (Nganassan Siberians, or Atayal Taiwanese Indigenous) have solid colors, meaning they have comparatively "purer" genes, aka less recent mixing.

        Meanwhile the larger and interior populations (Han, French, Mongol) have multiple colors, meaning recently mixed ancestries.

        Some of these are ancient samples, and come up as mostly solid colors.
        WHG = "Western Hunter Gatherer", from France 9000 years ago. Solid yellow.
        Anatolia_N = "Anatolia Neolithic", farmers from Anatolia 8000 years ago. Solid green.

        "French" are a mix of yellow and green--meaning they are a mix of indigenous Western Hunter Gatherers, and Anatolian farmers. Functionally, this means that French people are half Middle Eastern, and half European.

    • ComradeMikey [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      funny my anthro class absolutely trashed any sort of it as unscientific lmao

      • lvysaur [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        4 years ago

        funny my anthro class absolutely trashed any sort of it as unscientific lmao

        well it depends which part

        for example, it's undebatable fact that many people in Europe share maternal and/or paternal markers with people in Botswana or Japan or w/e. (True for any region not just europe)

        Also, the current "European race" was only formed after a violent bronze age conquest and mass mixing from the east, with a complete replacement of paternal ancestry in a literal Columbus-American style takeover

        These and other facts could easily be used to show the inherent mixedness of various peoples (especially Europeans). Instead we get shitty fash-adjacent tests from ancestry.com that support the current propaganda paradigm.

          • lvysaur [he/him]
            ·
            edit-2
            4 years ago

            Right, or at least "Yamnaya" migration, since we have no evidence of what language they spoke (but a whole shitton of genetic evidence shows a tight association between the two)

            this migration, and the discovery of these fossils were so central to European racial politics it's hard to overemphasize it

            For instance, the redefinition of the word Caucasian? It literally means "of the Caucasus", so why did it get redefined to mean Europeans? Well, COINCIDENTALLY, these Yamnaya (formerly called Pit Grave) fossils were found shortly before this change took place--and they were found right by the Caucasus.

            So it was likely a cope, similar to how Know-Nothings (basically Trumpers of the 1800s) called white anglos "Native Americans". Or how the viking meme COINCIDENTALLY only took off 2 years after Sweden lost Finland in the Finnish War. They wanted to connect Europe to the Caucasus, because it was already known that these "Indoeuropeans" originated much of Europe's culture, and we can't have foreigners originating our culture--something like that.

            Then there's the appropriated word "Aryan", and the equally appropriated swastika, which was such a huge cope that it literally made 60 million europeans kill each other.

            As well as endless LARPing of anglo-germanics as "nordic Aryans", which continues today even though the pigmentation genes of these Yamnaya have been confirmed to be in frequencies that are seen in modern Pakistan/Northern India--in other words they were Brown.

        • ComradeMikey [he/him]
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          edit-2
          4 years ago

          ok sure my issue is when people extrapolate that stuff to mean anything. They try to essentialize mass groups of people using traits that aren’t connected to certain outcomes. you cant look at someones jaw line and go ah thats a X race group they are more athletic or more intelligent.

          sure they may identify gene groups now the question is for practical use does that relate to the social construct of race and do either have impact. in my studies it was unanimously no. most anthropologists say racial identifiers aren’t indicative of alot of these abstract implications of say disposition or intelligence, and that culture often has far more to play than the construct of race on physical performance etc.

          i just wanna add on that im not dismissing the nature’s impact but they aren’t linked to race, there is more diversity in genetic variation within cultures than between them

          • lvysaur [he/him]
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            edit-2
            4 years ago

            you cant look at someones jaw line and go ah thats a X race group they are more athletic or more intelligent.

            A big part of eurocentrism is that europeans are studied 10000x more than anybody else.

            You probably believe some racist anthro myths yourself. For example, I'd bet that 90% of this website believes that Europeans are uniquely lactose tolerant.

            But the reality is that there are plenty of other ethnoracial groups that are highly lactose tolerant--they just have different genes that code for the same thing (Indians/Pakistanis, Arabs, Tibetans, Tutsi/Fulani/Tuareg/Nuba/Hadza/plenty of others across Africa). And moreover, Eastern/Southern Europeans have low rates. Again, the myth still persists

            So what ends up happening is people say "Europeans are more X" where they looked for the genes for X extensively in Euros, but not in other groups.

            And of course individual people can be anything for most traits, these are just tendencies