The amount of effort required to learn theory is too high.
It's too hard to convey the dialectics of modern capitalism and principals of historical materialism in any sort of convincing way in a short time frame.
A lot of people in America will never accept Materialism as a starting point.
Here's a hot take: I have no doubt some illiterate peasants all over the world taught themselves theory, but I doubt that most revolutionaries in any given leftist conflict were all that politically educated. Most people in general aren't politically educated, a number of leftist revolutions started off more as independence struggles (e.g., Cuba, Vietnam), and you don't need to read 500 pages of Marx to want to fight the imperialists who killed one of your family members.
The takeaway for modern times is that theory is good, but we'll undoubtedly have many comrades who are uninterested in it even if they're highly motivated to go out and make a better world.
yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I feel like here have to be some interesting lessons in the relationship between anti-colonial struggle and Marxism-Leninism that I would like to learn more about
The big link I see is an overlap of immediate goals that arise from an overlap of motivations. If you're in a colonized country that's run by an imperial capitalist stooge, whatever your ideological starting point is, you want better conditions for ordinary people and your immediate goal is to overthrow said stooge. Then, as your struggle matures, you find out that capitalist states generally oppose you and ML states are willing to help you, so naturally you make friends with your allies and listen to their ideas on political theory.
I agree with you, but even for a self-identified leftist actively engaging and trying to learn, there is SO MUCH out there and I'm just now barely feeling like I have a slightly decent grasp on these key ML concepts - and that's after dozens of hours of reading, several books, and dozens of hours of podcasts.
I know my historical materialism is still very weak, and I haven't even begun to properly dig into the Cuban and Chinese revolutions.
My point is you can't expect the average person to spend hundreds of hours reading and listening to theory when Liberal/Conservative/Fascist viewpoints are so easily packaged and disseminated, backed by years of strong propaganda.
I think it can be extremely hard to understand and support socialist revolutions throughout history without that understanding when you're coming from a standard western Liberal point of view.
My point is you can’t expect the average person to spend hundreds of hours reading and listening ... I think it can be extremely hard to understand and support socialist revolutions throughout history without that understanding when you’re coming from a standard western Liberal point of view.
I would push back on this view a little in a few ways. First, I don't think the average person should have to delve deep into hundreds of hours of theory, that should be done mostly be members of a vanguard party who then make it their project to make the useful parts of this theory and history easily digestible in service of furthering their aims. If an average person thinks that North Korea is bad, but can be convinced that China is good and support an anti-war campaign, then that's a win because that is the issue relevant to your org. However, if a member in your cadre is saying these things, it is also understandable because we can't be expected to know everything, but that is where being part of an org helps because your comrades will help educate you when you speak from ignorance. Just keep an open mind an noticed when your comrades are trying to help you learn in good faith so you don't have to feel like you need the "perfect" view before being able to do anything at all.
CounterCounterpoint: the attention economy has rotted the ability of modern people to focus enough to read dense text in hundred-year-old vernacular that references issues that were contemporary when they were written but that anyone today, outside of niche history nerds, has zero context for, and rather than get with the times and publish updated versions or contemporary applications and contexts, the modern left would rather bully people for not being able to muster the attention required to digest it because they derive more smug satisfaction from having read theory than they would get from helping people who won't or can't read ancient academic texts to understand the core principles discussed in them
rather than get with the times and publish updated versions or contemporary applications and contexts
Note that revolutionaries like Lenin, Mao, and Che didn't just translate Marx into their local languages -- they did exactly what you're suggesting and updated the core concepts for their time and place. They weren't dogmatic, they were practical.
No it's definitely something I struggle with. People don't want big words thrown at them, they don't want the only life they've ever known challenged. Unless they are already on the path to radicalization from real world experience, they will ignore most things you say.
The amount of effort required to learn theory is too high.
It's too hard to convey the dialectics of modern capitalism and principals of historical materialism in any sort of convincing way in a short time frame.
A lot of people in America will never accept Materialism as a starting point.
illiterate Vietnamese peasants taught each other Marxist theory orally! it's all about material conditions
Here's a hot take: I have no doubt some illiterate peasants all over the world taught themselves theory, but I doubt that most revolutionaries in any given leftist conflict were all that politically educated. Most people in general aren't politically educated, a number of leftist revolutions started off more as independence struggles (e.g., Cuba, Vietnam), and you don't need to read 500 pages of Marx to want to fight the imperialists who killed one of your family members.
The takeaway for modern times is that theory is good, but we'll undoubtedly have many comrades who are uninterested in it even if they're highly motivated to go out and make a better world.
yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I feel like here have to be some interesting lessons in the relationship between anti-colonial struggle and Marxism-Leninism that I would like to learn more about
The big link I see is an overlap of immediate goals that arise from an overlap of motivations. If you're in a colonized country that's run by an imperial capitalist stooge, whatever your ideological starting point is, you want better conditions for ordinary people and your immediate goal is to overthrow said stooge. Then, as your struggle matures, you find out that capitalist states generally oppose you and ML states are willing to help you, so naturally you make friends with your allies and listen to their ideas on political theory.
Counterpoint: it's never been easier to learn theory with the internet, podcasts, audiobooks, and forums for discussion and clarification
I agree with you, but even for a self-identified leftist actively engaging and trying to learn, there is SO MUCH out there and I'm just now barely feeling like I have a slightly decent grasp on these key ML concepts - and that's after dozens of hours of reading, several books, and dozens of hours of podcasts.
I know my historical materialism is still very weak, and I haven't even begun to properly dig into the Cuban and Chinese revolutions.
My point is you can't expect the average person to spend hundreds of hours reading and listening to theory when Liberal/Conservative/Fascist viewpoints are so easily packaged and disseminated, backed by years of strong propaganda.
I think it can be extremely hard to understand and support socialist revolutions throughout history without that understanding when you're coming from a standard western Liberal point of view.
I would push back on this view a little in a few ways. First, I don't think the average person should have to delve deep into hundreds of hours of theory, that should be done mostly be members of a vanguard party who then make it their project to make the useful parts of this theory and history easily digestible in service of furthering their aims. If an average person thinks that North Korea is bad, but can be convinced that China is good and support an anti-war campaign, then that's a win because that is the issue relevant to your org. However, if a member in your cadre is saying these things, it is also understandable because we can't be expected to know everything, but that is where being part of an org helps because your comrades will help educate you when you speak from ignorance. Just keep an open mind an noticed when your comrades are trying to help you learn in good faith so you don't have to feel like you need the "perfect" view before being able to do anything at all.
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CounterCounterpoint: the attention economy has rotted the ability of modern people to focus enough to read dense text in hundred-year-old vernacular that references issues that were contemporary when they were written but that anyone today, outside of niche history nerds, has zero context for, and rather than get with the times and publish updated versions or contemporary applications and contexts, the modern left would rather bully people for not being able to muster the attention required to digest it because they derive more smug satisfaction from having read theory than they would get from helping people who won't or can't read ancient academic texts to understand the core principles discussed in them
Note that revolutionaries like Lenin, Mao, and Che didn't just translate Marx into their local languages -- they did exactly what you're suggesting and updated the core concepts for their time and place. They weren't dogmatic, they were practical.
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No it's definitely something I struggle with. People don't want big words thrown at them, they don't want the only life they've ever known challenged. Unless they are already on the path to radicalization from real world experience, they will ignore most things you say.