France's imperial ambition to be independent of the US should be viewed as a useful tool of bourgeoise division and working with France should be seen as keeping it from falling entirely into vassalisation under US imperial control.
France was financing Brazil's nuclear submarine program (before the 2016 coup). Which pissed the US off, now France is financing it again under Lula da Silva (again, probably bc Macron really fucking hates Bolsonaro and prefers Lula), lol.
Right, exactly. And in the context of a clash between capitalism and communism I'd rather have several opportunist bourgeoise factions representing multiple imperial projects rather than one imperial dominion under the United States.
Working with the weaker imperial projects on safe things that do not threaten socialism is ok. Working with the US is not.
If anyone here freaks out about cooperation agreements with the west keep in mind these are several rungs below the cooperation with Laos, Cambodia, and China, VERY explicitly so
That's precisely why I think this is a money making scheme for rich officials and contractors in Hanoi, the amounts are too low to set off the state's corruption detectors, but the precedent still sets a bad example institutionally
Hanoi needs some serious infrastructure so I do agree the amounts should be higher but this is paranoid thinking
The country is poor and literally every facet of infrastructure could do with cash injection, there's hardly room for graft without pissing people off. They actually sentence people for it and NGOs aren't getting a free ride anymore.
The level of pessimism coming out here from people who don't even know how these cooperation agreements work is kind of disappointing.
French capital is not investing for the sake of Viet rail and the wild returns that would bring in
This is quid pro quo under the table deal making and graft, the French are purchasing access to something they think will make real money and definitely something they shouldn't have access to
I mean feel free to back any of that up but it really just seems like bong rip paranoia that flies in the face of how these cooperation agreements work and the competition and diplomatic pressure France is facing
Capital outflows from imperialist countries have not created rail development abroad beyond what was needed to extract resources for a century in many places so imperialists paying for infrastructure is symbolically a reversal, it's bringing them to heel
Capital outflows from imperialist countries have not created rail development abroad beyond what was needed to extract resources for a century in many places so imperialists paying for infrastructure is symbolically a reversal, it's bringing them to heel
That's my point, the French wouldn't pay for infrastructure unless they thought they were getting something out of it, if there's a clear reversal (symbolic or otherwise) the French wouldn't so much as return Hanoi's calls
Obviously the French see a door that is open or appears to be open, a door that most likely has nothing to do with rail (considering the comically low amount they're investing) and shouldn't be open to begin with
Whether that "door" is actually open and the Vietnamese aren't just playing 4d chess on Paris is up for debate, I hope they are
You put my point on the rack and stretched that mf lmao
The French are evil tho
The Americans are worse and Vietnam worked with them pretty much immediately after they got done poisoning their entire populace
Every time I look at the map of chemical scars it makes me get really itchy and I want to cry but I don't because I need people to take me seriously ☝️🤠
It's not that complicated. French corporations build trains. If the state funds rail somewhere it's because they want these corporations to sell more trains.
The french corporations are not interested in selling trains, they're interested in making Profit ON selling trains, and the lack of profitability is blatantly clear in light of the low amounts they've invested in the form of loans
Selling trains to a public service state entity in Vietnam is not profitable in itself, the loan is a ticket purchase for access to Vietnamese resources or industries that are profitable when invested in
What the French are purchasing access to isn't specified publicly, but it sure as shit ain't access to build rail for working class Vietnamese in the form of sub-strandard inter-industry foreign loans
Didn't they just remove a bunch of corrupt high officials like 2 years ago or something?
China being their neighbor might actually be the problem, you don't want to become overly reliant on one country, especially one with past and present border conflicts (SCS)
I’m sure the Chinese didn’t develop their HSR system without foreign consulting and experts just like how France was also consulting for California HSR. Not that the Chinese aren’t capable but why reinvent the wheel when you can get engineering expertise in your exact problem and they can train your domestic workers.
Yeah the game plan is literally China 30 years ago. Cambodia and Laos fly under the radar but their rate of development is fantastic with this strategy. I don't think some people here understand how badly Hanoi needs regular highways and bus lines too.
They do cooperate with China! China is still a developing country and France is one of the imperial cutpurses of the west, so winning that plunder back in the form of infrastructure (and not cracking their markets open for the West) is advantageous and not really what France wants.
John_candy_brainwashing.mp4
(due to the looming presence of other replies I have not answered this is explicitly a joke)
Are you guys seriously getting the heebie jeebies about Hanoi getting a bridge fixed? This reminds me of when the Maoists who took over the WTYP discord went nuts over China calling an automated bus that followed a painted street a "railless train".
TRUST THE PLAN!
If I was gonna sign an agreement to build rail in my country, I wouldn't go with France, or frankly any western country
This shit smacks of personnel graft at the top of Hanoi
Minister Nguyen Van Thang thanked AFD for providing loans for Vietnam's railway infrastructure development projects and hoped that with AFD's active support and coordination
Ah yes rail, the industry famous for profitability and ease of debt servicing
I wouldn't go with France, or frankly any western country
To be fair, being Spanish, I'm kinda proud of our public high speed railways. Uzbekistan for example had their high speed lines made by the Spanish, and I think it's one of the (if not the) cheapest high speed rails in the world per km, and fairly decent.
Uzbekistan mentioned!!! I am so optimistic about Central Asia I am sure I am missing some nasty surprises for the future. I almosr wish it could fly more under the radar but it's going to be further used as an attack surfacs against Russia and China.
Damn, are you Uzbeki? If so, I'm so interested in your country. The architecture is so different to that of my country and so beautiful, you have such an ancient and rich history being in the middle of the silk road, food looks absolutely amazing (I had the chance to try Uzbek bread in Russia and it was great)... Tell me more pls T_T
No I have one Uzbek friend and it went to my head I'm sorry 🥲 I live in Vietnam 😃
I have been reading a lot about Kazakhstan to try to catch up before the Washington inter-agency racket really starts trying to fuck with them again
Oh, Vietnam is also super cool. I mostly know from Luna Oi, as I don't have any friends or acquaintances from Vietnam, but the people look very friendly and nice and the cuisine also amazing. I'm afraid to say I don't know much of the ancient history of Vietnam, it would be interesting to know more! Any good resources on it in English? I'm thinking something like the channel Gates of Kilikien for the history of China, but for Vietnam.
Well I have mostly read some bougie ancient history of Vietnam but I will post some screenshots from more based books which aren't specifically about Vietnam but have useful sections about Vietnamese history (also Laos Cambodia and China) with Libgen links on /c/history@lemmy.ml or here and ping you when I get home
I am pretty lightweight on ancient history everywhere and I've been trying to remedy it. While I often diverge from their opinions on modern times post-1990, world systems writers are very good about this. There are a few journals here and there which actually post world systems papers too
If I was gonna sign an agreement to build rail in my country, I wouldn't go with France, or frankly any western country
Fair enough, but maybe they saw the TGV synthwave remixes? That would convince me for sure!
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=l6umPyHxQio
Oooo given Frances history with Vietnam, this feels icky
Yeah my reaction that is all [Walter White screaming through the car window] like why you inviting the snakes back in after fighting so hard to get rid of them?
They worked with the us while agent orange was still in the jungle. Signing an agreement w the French isn’t abnormal
Macron hoping this goes better than the French submarine deal that AUKUS destroyed
Well I'm happy that the Vietnamese are gonna get new rails, but please Macron can you also fix the ones you have at home?
It's so funny that rail in the EU is so close together and it doesn't properly connect internationally LMAO
Someone definitely used a monkey's paw or evil genie type wish to ask for international rail networks funded by the French government
SNCF failing again. What if its Nightjet partners say about it?
I hope they know what they're doing. They're making a deal with the devil.
They already do this with the US! Big problem with opening up to the US was NGO people stealing infrastructure data but I'm pretty sure they were going to find a way to get that one way or another. The capital inflows being managed by the state is more important.
Have some damn perspective rather than reading France and Vietnam in the same sentence and extrapolating from there Jesus Christ
???? I live here?? Not sure who this is directed at but it only goes to my mentions 🤔
It’s directed at everyone replying to this with kneejerk reactions, sorry for the ping
No no it's my bad I'm looking for arguments, I am doing good old reading insomnia
Who's going to build it? Lmao... I suppose if the Viets are just pulling one on France though, good on them (and if they actually build the rail while doing so, all the better)
I guess getting kicked out of Sahel means you have to find another victim as replacement for the export of capital. And while we’re at it, why not call up your former colony who had already kicked you out once and ask if they’re still willing to play?
Never tell the French they have been redeemed, keep pressuring them to create better cuisine and stop doing philosophy
