It seems like you're allowed to stan China or call for autonomous zones, but as soon as you echo some Chomsky/breadtube pragmatism, all derisive and divisive language is suddenly tolerated.
What happened to left unity?
Anarkiddies and tankies are united in calling Vaush stans libs
Liberals have a diffrent theoretical framework for understanding the world that is mutually exculisive to leftist thought. It is compatible with fashist though though. They are not on the left. In most contries Liberals are acknowledged to be a conservative party. In america we are so far to the right some people think they are on the left.
Anarchists and Communists both want the same thing but disagree on what would make it happen. As there is mo way to test it out people grow increasingly frustrated. Since if the entire left could unite with the correct position the work of revolution and saving thr world is much more likely to happen.
So, with the frustrustions of no way to fox thr probelms, watching peopel die world wide, and the occasional stirring the pot of government psyop trolling, we are to riled up to work together effectively and thats the peoblem you are seeing.
most of it probably goes too far - people want to separate who is actually left from not and humor/derision are easy tools for doing so. it's not a great way to bring people left but it is a good way to feel like part of the group.
that said, left unity doesn't and can't extend to liberals.
What exactly is a liberal though? I feel like, "I don't want four more years of Trump, I don't like Biden either, but harm reduction" being championed by really intelligent and reasonable people that we all watch and listen to, to reduce them to mockery seems incredibly naive.
liberals are people who intentionally or not reaffirm or support capitalism. people are calling left-ish people referring to Biden as "harm reduction" libs because the whole argument turns our focus back on the bourgeois electoral sphere and its continual theatrics; or because they wish Bernie had won the primary and Biden hasn't done anything to win them over (I'd argue this outlook is still fundamentally liberal).
People who justify the continued existence of capitalism, its really that simple
There are many factions within the liberal thought sphere, neoliberals, ordo liberals, classical liberals, conservative liberals, social liberals, and liberals in the process of degenerating into fascists
Regardless of the national and tactical differences between these groups, ALL OF THEM hold capitalist property relations as sacrosanct, which naturally excludes them from ever being considered fellow travelers of the socialist tradition and most importantly makes them inherent enemies of the working class
There's a comment below mentioning people like Jon Oliver, Michael Moore, etc.
These are the people who radicalized me into seeing the travesties of capitalism. To call them idiots is insanse to me.
I don't know, i start off by your mentions of Chomsky who is indeed doing everything he can to destroy the legacy he had (and i'm saying this as an anarchist)
These people are good as entry level leftism but it's absolutely wrong not to call them out on stupid shit (of which they produce a lot)
Obligatory John Oliver “All the symptoms without the underlying problem of capitalism” meme.
Liberalism is the ideology of French revolution and similar revolutions around that time. It is basically the status quo of the current politics in the large parts of the world. Ideology of free markets, free speech, free assembly, etc (limitations may apply). It is ideology of capitalists/capitalism itself, they became the ruling class after dismantling the old aristocracies. In this time they try their hardest to keep the power and property they have accumulated and will try their best to uphold the current system. They are also the original leftists, because they sat to the left of the king in the general assembly in French parliament. And for their time they were a progressive force that dismantled feudalism. Currently they are basically center as I mentioned. Large parts of Democrat and Republican parties are liberals (the parts of republicans that want to bring a theocracy or ethnostate or something around aren't).
Sectarianism isn't 'criticizing other leftists', it's dogmatically not allowing criticism of your own group. It can be viewed as the opposite of radicalization.
Sectarianism, fed by fanaticism, is always castrating. Radicalization, nourished by a critical spirit, is always creative. Sectarianism mythicizes and thereby alienates; radicalization criticizes and thereby liberates. Radicalization involves increased commitment to the position one has chosen, and thus ever greater engagement in the effort to transform concrete, objective reality. Conversely, sectarianism, because it is mythicizing and irrational, turns reality into a false (and therefore unchangeable) "reality."
-Paulo Freire
What actually is getting enforced here is a consequence of sectarianism, useless infighting. The electoralism vs anti-electoralism 'fight' is not useless and people aren't really sectarian about it, in my experience.
I like that quote. I guess what I'm getting at is the distinction between criticism and mockery.
Definitely gonna attract more bees with honey than with a sting.
Freire wrote during fascist military dictatorships in South America. This there were sentences produced like: kill all pigs, cause they deserve it as they are military targets in a class war
You're "allowed" to do those things, whereas I'm being "pragmatic".
So why do you guys keep being sectarian?
Sectarianism is infighting. We have people of different ideologies here, and infighting drives our own members out.
Id say there is a consensus that this space is not a place for liberal ideas to thrive. Liberalism doesnt do anything to halt the advance of the capitalist system. Liberals want civility more than justice. If thoughts are voiced that fall in line with this (eg. electoralism in the current political climate), then the dunking begins.
Well there's certainly got to be a more ...inclusive way to gain heads. It's hard to learn when you're being mercilessly mocked and ganged up on. It in some ways triggers my paranoia that sites like this are a covert psyop (obviously not though, I've lurked long enough to see there's a lot of love here).
I feel like getting dunked on by the community is more of a learning experience rather than outright hostility. I understand that it can be offputting for people, but it's an entertaining way to debunk bad takes. Sure i could watch polidice do it, but theres no comraderie there. And as a watcher, you learn the flaws in arguments.
sites like this are a covert psyop
You'll know if you follow the downvotes. The mob rule here doesn't want conversations like this hitting the front page ;)
Literally found this on the front page - there is no mob rule, go and check the modlog for banned users - it's fucking public. Our mods and devs are volunteers, fuck off with this wrecker shit.
I'm watching the vote totals crater.
:stonks-down: but unironically.
Because imperfect allies like Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, Cody Johnston, the Chapo crew, John Oliver, Contrapoints, Bernie Sanders, and their ilk are considered an enemy to leftist ideals, and should be mocked until they fall in line.
looks at the downvote brigade already all over this post
"sO MuCH fOR tHe tOLeRAnT leFT" yada yada
