• Saif [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    no one has ever said "don't draw Muhammad in your own house"??? where the hell are you getting this from. nobody is asking you to not draw Muhammad in private, that's absurd and irrelevant to the question. this whole discourse is about western reactionaries intentionally enflaming the situation by drawing Muhammad outwardly, usually in racist big-nosed depictions i might add.

      • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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        4 years ago

        There are plenty of people who eventually found their way to leftism, but took a detour through mid-2000s atheism. Mid-2000s atheism did rip on other religions occasionally, but of course Islam was the main target as the War on Terror was still relatively popular.

      • GravenImage [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        FORCING THEIR RULES down people’s throats

        *Bourgeois rules, *the proletariat's throat (uwu)

        hardly ever see such takes in threads even about far-right Christian people

        the evangelical death cult is old news, not much to talk about

      • Rev [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        I don't know under what rock you've been living if you are new to the massive leftist vitriol against fundamentalist Christians, against fundamentalist Hindus, against the Buddhist monstrous slave state in Tibet pre PRC, against Zionism. Just because it's not ok to just denigrate and pick vicious fights with religious folks who keep their religion to themselves does not in any way justify lionising religious bigots who would kill you first thing for being an "apostate".

        • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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          4 years ago

          lionising religious bigots who would kill you first thing for being an “apostate”.

          Zero people in this thread are doing that.

      • Amorphous [any]
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        4 years ago

        (but not JUST this certain religion ofc!!! even tho its the only one i’m constantly criticizing!!!)

        i literally criticized christians for the same shit 2 comments up you dumbfuck piece of shit

        i live in alabama, i have a seething hatred for christians and have never knowingly interacted with a muslim. why the fuck are you accusing me of this bullshit?

          • Amorphous [any]
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            4 years ago

            funny how im "islamophobic" for rejecting religious rule of literally the entire world's population, but not "christophobic" for the same thing

              • Rev [none/use name]
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                4 years ago

                Outright Nazis are also a minority, should the left also protect their honour and their sacred screeds from the dominant imperialist neo-liberals?

                • nullinvert [she/her]
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                  4 years ago

                  are you seriously unironically equating persecuted religious minorities and nazis, jesus fucking christ

                  • Rev [none/use name]
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                    4 years ago

                    jesus fucking christ

                    Don't use the lord's name in vain, we might have Christians from countries with persecuted Christian minorities browsing this site.

                  • Rev [none/use name]
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                    4 years ago

                    I equate standing up for minorities explicitly pushing a violently reactionary agenda with idiotism. Wahabists are such a minority.

                • rozako [she/her]
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                  4 years ago

                  “standing up against islamophobia is the same thing as defending nazis” is a super smart leftist thing to say.

                  • Rev [none/use name]
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                    4 years ago

                    So anti-wahabism is anti-islamophobia now? You know the sect that would gladly massacre all other Muslims if given the chance. Reactionary minorities are reactionary. No passaran.

              • Amorphous [any]
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                4 years ago

                fuck off dude, thats a ridiculous way of looking at things

    • Amorphous [any]
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      4 years ago

      this whole discourse is about western reactionaries intentionally enflaming the situation by drawing Muhammad outwardly

      a muslim's right to tell a person what they can and can not draw based on religious rules end at their own doorstep. i dont care if they're drawing muhammad and then printing it on flags and flying those flags on every street corner in the entire world, it literally does not matter and anyone who gets upset at them for it is responsible for their own feelings, because no one has any obligation to respect rules specific to their religion

      • Saif [he/him]
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        4 years ago

        so once again, "drawing Muhammad in your own home" is not the question at hand here, you accept this. now you need to accept that nobody gives a shit about questioning the "morality" of drawing Muhammad in a vacuum just as no leftist with half a brain thinks the literal letter structure of the n-word is morally evil on its own. we're talking about cultural contexts. and just as it's morally wrong to go out of your way to be racist towards black people, it's morally wrong to go out of your way to be racist towards Muslims. and it takes a bizarre amount of effort in this context as well, i mean you are arguing for the right for people to make elaborate art just to be racist.

        • Amorphous [any]
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          4 years ago

          there is literally nothing racist about drawing muhammad as a statement that you dont respect religious guidelines, just in the same way there's nothing racist about waving a pride flag in a christian's face. when people try to impose their religious rules on you and you decide to go out of your way to disrespect those rules, that isnt fucking racist.

          these people the OP is talking about are almost certainly racist, yes, but it is not racist to draw muhammad

          • Saif [he/him]
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            4 years ago

            muslims are a race, and its racist to draw muhammad now, read the room my friend. this is the way of things. stop trying to conflate everything under the western conception of "religion" as if you can approach them all in the exact same way, you imperialist fuck. come to each one humbly with your head bowed, and attempt to learn something new about a different culture, for once in your fucking life.

            • Amorphous [any]
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              4 years ago

              muslims are a race, and its racist to draw muhammad now

              what the fuck is wrong with you lmao this is absurd

              • Saif [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                race is a social construct and not a biological one, and if you spend 5 seconds looking at the Western discourse you will see that Muslims have undergone racialization. how have you missed this?

                • Amorphous [any]
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                  4 years ago

                  ok, if they're a race then they don't have religious rules i need to respect because races are something you are born into and not sets of beliefs that you follow and impose on others

                  • Saif [he/him]
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                    4 years ago

                    sure, if that's the tack you want to go on. now that we've established islam has been racialized, and that it's extremely obvious that plastering drawings of Muhammad on the walls has been weaponized as form of racial oppression (again take 5 seconds to look at the discourse), can we agree it's fucking racist to do it? and there's precedence of course - culture is a fickle thing and anything can be turned into a slur with enough effort by racists, and we're not even talking about a word, we're talking about elaborately drawing something lmao.

                    • Amorphous [any]
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                      4 years ago

                      sure, if that’s the tack you want to go on. now that we’ve established islam has been racialized, and that it’s extremely obvious that plastering drawings of Muhammad on the walls has been weaponized as form of racial oppression

                      why is it racial oppression to draw pictures of some guy? it's against muslims religious beliefs, but we're not talking about a religion here, we're talking about a race.

                      • Saif [he/him]
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                        4 years ago

                        because racists have turned it into racial oppression? i just said culture is a fickle thing and this is how racial slurs and racial oppression develops, just look at blackface.

                        • GravenImage [none/use name]
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                          4 years ago

                          this is how racial slurs and racial oppression develops, just look at blackface.

                          Liberals literally have history backwards. It was the historic material conditions of black exploitation which generated the superstructure of anti-black culture in order to rationalize the existing state of affairs.

                        • Amorphous [any]
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                          4 years ago

                          blackface is mockery of a specific race's features. drawing muhammad is mockery of a specific religion's rules. how is there any similarity?

                          • Saif [he/him]
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                            4 years ago

                            i don't know how many times i have to keep saying this - racial oppression develops culturally, meaning there could be no logic to it but it becomes racist anyway due to the usage by racists for that purpose. for example, a lot of slurs have literally no etymological meaning, such as the "G" word used against Asians. you are trying to make racism seem logical, when it isn't and never has been.

                            • GravenImage [none/use name]
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                              4 years ago

                              i don’t know how many times i have to keep saying this

                              maybe because it's totally wrong?

                              racial oppression develops culturally,

                              please read Marx

                              there could be no logic to it but it becomes racist anyway due to the usage by racists for that purpose

                              *bourgeois racists use this 100% logical ideology for the purpose of maintaining exploitative worker relations.

                            • Amorphous [any]
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                              4 years ago

                              so when and how am i allowed to criticize those who wish to impose their religious rules on me?

                              • Saif [he/him]
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                                4 years ago

                                it's just a word guys stop imposing your rules on me i can say it whenever i want

                                  • Saif [he/him]
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                                    4 years ago

                                    no, but being black could be described as a "din" interestingly enough, which Islam describes itself as, as the English word "religion" and its connotations did not exist in classical Arabic. Would you like to learn things from an Islamic perspective, considering you "have never knowingly interacted with a muslim"?

                                    • Amorphous [any]
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                                      4 years ago

                                      ok so how do i state my disinterest in following their religious rules without being racist?

                                      • DerEwigeAtheist [she/her, comrade/them]
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                                        4 years ago

                                        No one asks that you follow ramadan don't work on fridays or quit eating pork. You can even draw mohammed in your own home. But drawing muhammad in our society with it's context has been made into a racist attack on Muslims. I don't know if dogwhistle is the right term, but it is similar, i think.

                            • oralcumshot [hy/hym]
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                              4 years ago

                              It's baffling how stupid liberals like you don't realize that by being so afraid of even talking about or being associated with some, basically neutral thing, be it a meme, a subculture, scene or social space online that the right has even so much as vaguely tried to associate itself with, they are literally ceding ground and surrendering said thing to the right. The right barely has to do any effort to take over something it seems, just make the vaguest gesture that said thing is their turf and culture war obsessed lefties immediately hand it over to them because they are obsessed with appearing pure and free of anything even vaguely "problematic".

                              You are a fucking idiot and in a perfect world you would be born without hands so that no one would ever have to read your shitty posts. Inshallah that happens to you one day

                              • GravenImage [none/use name]
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                                4 years ago

                                make the vaguest gesture that said thing is their turf and culture war obsessed lefties immediately hand it over to them because they are obsessed

                                This is what happens when you're an idealistic liberal. Marxists know that historical material conditions are the base from which all these superstructure ideologies are formed. If an idea is racist, it's because the material world you live in is racist, like it's the symptom of a deeper disease.

              • disco [any]
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                4 years ago

                That comment is so absurdly idiotic that I assumed he was trolling at first. But no, somehow he actually believes it.