Lots of tankies from what I'm seeing, they're the "alt-left" if you will, they believe in just as much weird stuff as the alt-right but are on the left side of the spectrum... Heck they end up meeting on many things...
Could you provide an example of Hexbears agreeing with the alt-right about something specific? I think a lot of people conflate "disagreeing with the liberal consensus" with "thinking a MAGA thing" when they're really pretty different.
Just posting an image of a man who stood in front of an actively moving tank, crawled all over it, then walked away unscathed doesn't prove anything that you think it proves.
Go do that on one of your own military's tanks today. You'd be doing me, yourself, and frankly the entire world a favour if you had the courage to try it.
It's the 1989 Tiemaman square Tank Man picture and Xi Jinping as Whinnie the Pooh, images commonly censored in China as one of them demonstrates clear oppression and the other discredits the CCP.
Oppression is when you stand in the way of a tank and the tank stops for you, and then you climb on top of the tank and have a conversation with the guy in the tank, and then you walk off completely unharmed
Reporters were kept away by force and the CCP tried as hard as they could to hide all evidence. Crushed protestors were washed down drains with hoses, and many were whisked away to secret graves. Despite this, there is still significant photographic evidence
We've seen it and we've seen the alternative narrative. We tend to disagree with the US and their propaganda machine. Maybe you should question why you would believe them too? When has US propaganda lied?
There were actually numerous western reporters in the square and they all say nobody died there, some of them sent off diplomatic cables the same or the next day saying so, which were released by Wikileaks.
Things can undergo a transformation, just because the original usage might have been innocent. If something starts being used by white racists or western imperialists in a racist way, would ya look at that, it’s racist.
Also, it’s covert racism. It gives people plausible deniability. Like you are doing now.
And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril
You may be in different circles than me. In my circles, it is used to poke fun at Xi Jinping, not the Chinese people. It is a caricature, just as we draw caricature of our own politicians. Despite the CCP's attempts, Westerners distinguish between race and state. Xi Jinping is not China and China is not Xi Jinping.
You do realize the only reason why people keep sharing it is because of the Barbra Streisand effect. People loyal to Xi Jinping thought hate it, so people like me share it because it's funny to see their reaction
You do realize the only reason why people keep sharing racism is because of the Barbra Streisand effect. People loyal to Xi Jinping thought hate racism, so people like me share racism because it's funny to see their reaction
And you realise that watermelons originated in Africa, right?
You realise that the origin of something doesn't determine the depictions of it supporting racist stereotypes, such as a vast array of disgustingly racist caricatures of black people eating watermelons isn't absolved by the fact that watermelons originated in Africa, right?
Have you ever seen the complete tank man video? he doesn't get run over, while in the authoritarian US state vehicles are often running into peaceful protestors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-W-7WPWfE4
The reason we don't show externally hosted images isn't because of censorship it was because of the CSAM thing that happened a bit ago that lemm.ee had a problem with
Recently someone started trying to bring large Lemmy instances down by posting CSAM on large instances with open sign ups, as a result the hexbear mods made it so that images from untrusted instances wouldn't be shown to hexbear users to avoid hexbear users having to see stuff like that and to reduce the mods workload, idk whether its a temporary measure or not but for now all images from untrusted instances are just replaced with the words *removed externally hosted image* on our end
I had to see and report some offensive material on that line, and while it was quickly removed by our admins I don't think there's any way to actually prevent it.
Apparently there's been some discussion on lemm.ee of getting an AI that will automatically detect CSAM and delete it automatically but idk whether anything will come of it
When being "not pro west" means not analyzing the conflict but simply adopting the same point of view as Russian propaganda just because Ukraine is supported by the west then yeah, you're pro Russia.
Why can't you see the difference? We see the west and Nato as having propagated and profited off of this conflict. Russia is guilty as well as Ukraine in fanning the flames of war. But peace is a far better alternative to war and far better than flooding the area with weapons. Weapons that will continue to do damage long after hostility ends. Pro Russia How?
When being "not pro west" means not analyzing the conflict
Just like you analyzed our news megathreads from the last year to make this assessment?
It just fucking baffles me how people from other instances feel so comfortable talking shit straight from their ass. I just don't understand the mentality. It's fucking slimy. You can just do that shit and you don't feel dirty?
You actually can and should expect that from us, we’re huge on credible sources and methodology, we’re obsessed with arriving at correct conclusions and that means starting from reliable premises.
You’ll find that we are not COVID deniers, we take COVID more seriously than probably 99% of people, you keep trying to compare us to people who’s views we don’t share at all , people whose views are actually closer to your own, which ought to give you at least some pause.
You talk about finding credible sources when you clearly have the reading comprehension of a 5 years old. I never called you a COVID denier, I compared you to them.
That’s exactly what I said you dingus. You continue COMPARING us to people whose views more closely align with your own. People to your right when we are to your left and you’re fucking projecting your own insufferable right wing tendencies onto us
Just because you reach different conclusion doesn't mean we can't point out the similarities of the process.
Again, I never said you deny COVID exist, I said you use exactly the same logic as they do to reach your own conclusions, i.e. using non credible sources to build your view of the world.
“Your process is the same that’s why you reach opposite conclusions. Meanwhile my process is better that’s why I agree with the Nazis 50% of the time!” Fuck off dipshit.
They’re not. The U.S. doing a regime change coup and putting Nazis in power in Ukraine in 2014 was imperialism, that’s why people living in parts of Ukraine like Crimea decided they didn’t want to be a part of that country anymore. Also I have no idea what Winnie the Pooh logic is supposed to mean.
You might be shocked to realize that I was already well into adulthood in early 2014 when the Euromaidan took place - as in Obama with his shriveled fleshlight Joe Biden decided to stick their noses in Ukraine (on their way to Syria and Yemen of course) caught in 1080p because Yakunovich would hinder MIC's profits to put it simply.
This thread is fucking littered with comrades begging you to read, but you just sit there and say "doesn't look like anything to me" like it's Westworld or some shit and then keep on bashing us. It's amazing, truly.
In my experience alt right folks are pretty anti China, to the point where that is often the reason they oppose the Ukraine war, as it is dividing the attention of the Christian west from the rising, menacing Tigers that threaten white society.
Hexbears are often skeptical of Adrian Zenz who is usually the source of claims about China. Most that I've seen acknowledge that there are camps (China openly says it is running programs to deradicalize separatists and fundamentalists in the region), but disagree that they are as bad as western media depicts them, and would probably argue that western nations are concern trolling about the issue regardless because it is easy to question whether American foreign policy is motivated by concern for Muslims. Genuinely curious, who is an alt-right guy who doesn't think there are camps in Xinjiang? I've never encountered a pro-Chinese reactionary.
As to Korea I thought MAGA types just memed about Kim Jong Un because Trump sort of got along with him. Hexbears think that the Korean War was bad and that Korea is acting predictably given that a nuclear power is constantly threatening them with annihilation. There are a variety of positions in Hexbear on the DPRK though, and I can't really account for all of them, but I think they arise out of a genuine anti-imperial and anti-war sentiment, and a healthy doze of skepticism of western narratives of a state enemy. I don't think you could say that for the alt right.
Last I checked the alt right believes them same claims about the world that dems do in terms of the supposed camps, they just think they are good because the alt right hates muslims
I think, for example, that most alt-right types oppose the war either because of chauvinistic beliefs about American boys and American blood and treasure being spent on foreigners, or because they would like to work together with Russia to counter China and think a war with them hurts the white struggle against the eastern hordes. No one on hexbear would defend either of those positions.
It needs to be more specific than "both of you are against continuing the war." Just like it wouldn't be fair for me to accuse you of being alt- right because you and them both agree that there weren't WMDs in Iraq and that that invasion was sold on false pretenses. You might both technically agree but it would be missing the point.
It's theories about how spheres of influence work, that Russia has a right to take over Ukraine, or at least override it politically. Very much similar to Kissinger's Great power politics in the days of the USSR. It's somewhat different than the Russian right which is their divine right to Empire, over the Ukrainians and the Poles and Slavic countries in general. The ideologues Ivan Ilyin and Karl Schmidt influence that part.
But notably, both parts believe that there's a place that Russia must dominate in Europe, and that other great powers must not interfere there.
Leftists also are influenced by these theories, especially when they remember the reaches of the Iron Curtain far into Central Europe. The USSR had a history of intervening into the politics of its satellite states. Notably in Hungary when there were democratic protests, they sent in tanks to quell the uprising.
This theory echoes in 2014 when the Ukrainians changed their government, and Russia invades and annexes Crimea. Many on the far left and far right see the massive protests as creeping American influence that does not belong in the region. They fear NATO expansion as it is a threat to Russia; In the west it's Russia itself, and in Russia, it's Russian greatness in Empire.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Liberals don't believe that countries exert influence on other countries around them? You think Joe Biden objects to the concept of spheres of influence? You brought up Kissinger, you don't think US foreign policy is operating under the logic of realpolitik? I'm not sure what the alternative is to believing that countries act to pursue their interests in other countries. That just sounds like a description of the concept of foreign policy.
notably in Hungary when there were democratic protests
You’re talking about the fascist uprising where they went around marking the houses of Jews and Communists for extermination, like only a decade after the Soviets saved the world from Hitler?
How is being pro russia and wanting war to end in any way compatible though? They invaded Ukraine. They literally started a war. That's a pretty disgusting deflection tbh
Russia started a war. Ukraine has two choices. Surrender and end the bloodshed, or fight tooth and nail and pour more innocent people into the meat grinder and then surrender. There is not a third option. Obviously they should choose the former.
NATO/US started the war when they couped the democratically elected Ukrainian government in 2014, and when the US installed regime started bombing civilians in the Donbass
Where did I say any of that? I was simply correcting the poster about who the original instigators of the conflict were, and pointing out the fact that the banderite regime has been killing innocent Ukrainians for years, history did not begin in February 2022
Acknowledging the US's role in creating the conflict and the crimes of the regime they installed is not the same as supporting Russia's actions
We’re just not keeping our head in the sand here. Ukraine is not taking back Crimea, or even the Donbas. The counteroffensive failed horribly. Cheering for more bloodshed isn’t going to make a better outcome in the end.
"cheering for more bloodshed." Are you telling on yourself? You act like a counteroffensive is supposed to be fast and easy. It's not, war is bloody and deadly and Russia is not going to call for peace until they achieve their objective of overthrowing the Ukrainian government or achieving a peace deal where they can keep Ukraine's economic sectors
You act like peace deals are the same thing as calls for peace. They can still have peace deals to appear they want peace when they started the war in the first place back in 2014
Some Russians who maybe maybe not that lived in the area fought against Ukraine which means they wanted autonomy therefore it's ok for Russia to annex and invade Ukraine
Quick question: did you know about any of this before today? Did you know about the Maidan Coup? Did you know about the nearly 15,000 casualties, including over 3000 civilian casualties, in Luhansk/Donbas between 2014 and 2022? Were you aware of the extensive reporting by western sources on far right elements in Ukraine committing crimes against humanity?
If any of that was news to you, do you think it's ever appropriate to pause and reassess your position? Or are you just going to double, triple, and quadruple down on your fairy-tale understanding of the world with smug quips that don't address anything of substance?
Yall calling for the continuation of the war are telling on yourselves. Otherwise you'd fucking be fighting rather than advocating behind a computer for others to die. Too scared to go to Spain and fight the fascists?
Oh man the the US union should've just given up the civil war instead of continuing the fighting. Think of all the good Americans that will die. Let's just let the confederates secede instead of having a bloody conflict
have you provided any? I see plenty of links being provided all over the place by hexbears, but it seems the vast majority of you SJW can't remember how to copy paste on your computer
You act like a counteroffensive is supposed to be fast and easy.
It's September. Their window to make any gains in their counteroffensive has passed. Now they have to fight against the weather on top of the Russians.
The only progress the counteroffensive has made is in destroying Western materiel and getting scores of Ukrainians killed. They haven’t even reached the second defensive line yet. The total amount of territory retaken is like 100 meters of farmland. I’m calling it a failure because it is a failure.
"Ukraine should surrender so that they can spare their civilian and combatant lives to Russia which totally won't abuse their land and people as they've done in the past"
There were pogroms and mass murders at the ground level and there were laws targeting Russian speakers from the governmental level. The weapons Trump was impeached for tying political favors to were being used against resistance militias. They were being used to bomb facilities built in the soviet era that pump hot water into people's homes as the local method of heating during the winter. They locked over a hundred people in a building and burned them alive in it. They broke multiple treaties with Russia in order to do all of this. This was the lead up to the war.
I'm talking about the targeting of ethnically Russian Ukrainians in the eastern part of Ukraine (the Donbas region.)
There has been attacks against these people going on since 2014. Thousands upon thousands have died and more have been wounded in this low-grade civil war that became the prelude to the war between Russia and Ukraine.
Here's a western article filtered through western intelligence describing the situation with some glaring oversights, namely that there has been ultranationalist paramilitary forces operating in the Donbas (Azov, Right Sector, C14, National Militia, OUN et al.) with tacit approval from the Ukrainian government since 2014 and that civilian targets have been routinely been used by the military and the paramilitary groups.
Here's a short article written by a former USAID officer (!) published by The Atlantic Council (!!) that describes the problem with far-right militias in Ukraine, just so there's no accusations of bias from me in this discussion.
They've literally been targeting civilians who are of the "wrong" ethnicity for nearly a decade now. If that doesn't count as an attempted genocide, I don't know what would.
Also that's some cheap framing of the discussion btw. Fascism isn't "don't play defence". I take it that you have gotten your picture of fascism from a particular, well-known YouTube series. If so, that series is critically flawed and it does a bad job of defining fascism and how it functions. But that's a different discussion altogether.
Do you think we’re in charge of the Russian military? The war is going to end eventually one way or another. We might as well push for the path that preserves Ukrainian lives.
Are we in charge of the Ukrainian military? Not that it really matters, but still.
Russia can unilaterally end the conflict. Ukraine cannot (yet). Calling on Ukrainians to surrender while they still want to defend themselves is cowardice. I would rather support their continued struggle.
You just insulted me with the sole thrust being that I'm not in your echo chamber.
I'm referencing real world events. Do you not believe Ukraine broke both Minsk I and II as a lead up to the war? Do you not have google?
e: And what's this weasel bullshit where you slipped in 'Ukrainians' like I'm going after the citizens and not the government? The Ukrainian people haven't had a legitimate government since 2014 when the one they actually elected themselves was deposed in a far right western backed coup.
Do you not believe Ukraine broke both Minsk I and II as a lead up to the war?
What I think is that it doesn't matter in the context of an aggressive war against a country that was not threatening Russia.
Minsk I came about after the Russian military had invaded and annexed Ukrainian territory. The first of these two agreements is already taking place after the initial aggression and thus are not really factors in the question of whether Ukraine should defend itself from that aggression.
With that said, Minsk I saw violations on both sides and fell apart for that reason. Minsk II was fundamentally similar to Minsk I and thus was going to struggle to escape the same fate. While the Russians claimed that Ukraine violated the terms of Minsk II, they also claimed that they were not a party to Minsk II and thus were not violating it with their own troop buildup. Of course, they also claim that Ukraine's supposed violations of Minsk II were justification for further Russian invasion, despite claiming to not be a party to the treaty. That's some duplicitous behavior and, again, if I were in Ukraine I would not want the Russian military in my country.
All that said, the point that Minsk I and II are not justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They sure as hell were not justification for the initial invasion of Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk (not existing yet during those) and they're not justification of Russia's continued invasion deeper into Ukraine.
What I think is that it doesn't matter in the context of an aggressive war against a country that was not threatening Russia.
Lol well that's just a fucking lie. Zelenksy was openly threatening to host nuclear weapons for Nato on the eve of the invasion. Do you have a selective memory or are you just fucking ignorant of the entire history of this conflict and should therefore shut the fuck up?
Minsk I came about after the Russian military had invaded and annexed Ukrainian territory.
They didn't invade; they were already there. The legitimate government of Ukraine leased the naval base to them in Crimea and when the western backed coup government wanted to revoke the lease they simply stayed. Accuse them of squatting.
The first of these two agreements is already taking place after the initial aggression and thus are not really factors in the question of whether Ukraine should defend itself from that aggression.
Well that's just fucking stupid. Peace treaties don't count if they came after a war?
Zelenksy was openly threatening to host nuclear weapons for Nato on the eve of the invasion
Do you understand that there's a difference between hosting weapons in your country and (let's say) invading another country and (for example) launching missile strikes at civilians? (And can i just say? That Wikipedia page just keeps going and going.)
Let's also not forget about Russia continuously threatening to nuke Ukraine without commensurate nuclear threat from the other side. (They just keep doing it!)
Really, if we go back to the start of this (the pre-Crimea days), Ukraine had two futures. In one, it grew closer to Russia and came under the Russian sphere of influence. In the other, it grew closer to the West likewise. It was leaning in the direction of the West, but when Russia attacked it sure as hell pushed hard in that direction. Now everyone in the region wants to get in on NATO and Russia is claiming that's "provocation". That's nonsense, and it's shameful and pretty slimy to carry water for their nonsense.
Well that’s just fucking stupid. Peace treaties don’t count if they came after a war?
No, that's not the argument. The argument is that whether or not they broke a cease fire has no bearing on whether past or future invasions of their country are justified. The Russian invasion was unjustified from the start. It doesn't magically become justified because Russia claims the other side broke a peace treaty. Russia could withdraw at any time. They could have even withdrawn to Crimea and probably been fine. Again, they claimed to not even be party to the treaty!
These are some pretty shameful arguments, overall.
You mean the Revolution of Dignity??? That's what you're talking about here, right?
Oh shit I didn't know they gave it a glorious sounding name. I guess fascists didn't have anything to do with it and then immediately making a Nazi war criminal a national hero with a holiday on the first day of every year. Fuck I didn't know you were going to post entire wikipedia articles with the name of the thing you googled to find it.
I guess when you overthrow the democratically elected leader of a country and then immediately start passing laws to marginalize his biggest voting bloc it's fine as long as you call the coup something patriotic.
Yeah. Your arguments (i.e. using multiple question marks so as to mug to the audience) are pretty fucking shameful.
whether or not they broke a cease fire has no bearing on whether past or future invasions of their country are justified
Baby brain
It was leaning in the direction of the West
Are you just stupid, or are you deliberately lying right here? Yanukovych was couped precisely because he WASN'T leaning towards the west. Did he flee to Poland when your fascists were threatening his life?
If you don't want your civilians to be hit by rocket fire then you shouldn't use them as human shields. And you shouldn't support a regime that deliberately puts its own citizens in harms way to score propaganda points.
Yeah. Your arguments (i.e. using multiple question marks so as to mug to the audience) are pretty fucking shameful.
I, uh, do not think you're going to get very far trying to claim the (if you prefer) 2014 Ukrainian revolution was some kind of Nazi plot. I don't really feel the need to engage further on this, I'll simply say: you are wrong.
Baby brain
Oh good, now we're doing this.
Yanukovych was couped precisely because he WASN’T leaning towards the west
Yeah, because there was a significant chunk of Ukraine that wanted to integrate more with the West while Yanukovych was a lot more hesitant. Like I said, there were two paths they could go on.
If you don’t want your civilians to be hit by rocket fire then you shouldn’t use them as human shields
This is, uh, a fucking disgraceful argument to make. Yeah you found one example of where the Ukrainian military got a little too close to civilians. Now how about the rest of them?
The Commission’s evidence shows that in areas that came under their control, Russian authorities have committed wilful killings of civilians or persons not involved in fighting (hors de combat), which are war crimes and violations of the right to life. [...]
The Commission established a pattern of widespread unlawful confinement in areas controlled by Russian armed forces, targeting broad categories of men, women and children. Confinement in dedicated facilities across Ukraine and in the Russian Federation was accompanied by consistent methods of torture against certain categories of persons by Russian authorities.
The Commission found numerous instances of rape and sexual and gender-based violence committed by Russian authorities as they undertook house-to-house searches in localities that came under their control and during unlawful confinement...
And yes, they did find some Ukrainian war crimes were committed, but not on the same scale:
The Commission also documented a small number of violations committed by Ukrainian armed forces, including likely indiscriminate attacks and two incidents qualifying as war crimes, where Russian prisoners of war were shot, wounded and tortured.
Damn too bad they’re not going to do that, so what should we do about that? We support a negotiated settlement to the conflict in order to achieve peace, you support marching every single Ukrainian person into a meat grinder to die. Which of is more right wing?
This isn't about us. What "we" should do is to support and show solidarity with the side being attacked by an imperialist, dictatorial state and help them defend themselves.
When the Finnish were defending themselves in the Winter War it would not have been just to say "they should just surrender to save their lives". The Finns did eventually surrender, but only after they had stomped the Soviet army all across Finland. They continued fighting not to die but so that they could live.
The Ukrainians are fighting now not to die but so that they can live in (relative) freedom.
Again, this "we should just capitulate to whatever warmongers want" stuff is shameful and cowardly, doubly so for people on the Left.
Lol of all the examples, you pick another group of Nazis as a favorable point of comparison!! Wtf. Thank GOD the Soviets beat the Finnish Nazis in that war and then went on to beat the German Nazis after that.
Also lmao at calling Ukraine a free country compared to Russia, it’s just as fucked politically even prior to this invasion, now they’ve banned all left wing parties and are putting up statues of Nazis all over the place, fuck off, this has nothing at all to do with freedom.
Finland allied with the Nazis after the Winter War, in an attempt to regain their sovereignty from the USSR. They were not allied with Nazi Germany during the Winter War--and after the war, the leadership of the USSR agreed that Finland was not a particular risk and could be left alone.
Also lmao at calling Ukraine a free country compared to Russia
Ukraine is a far, far freer country than Russia. Of that there should be no doubt. On what merit, what axis, is Russia a freer society? Perhaps there is one, but Russia today is a corrupt, dictatorial, fascist state whose ruling party routinely imprisons or assassinates its political opposition or just general dissidents. They're also hardcore anti-gay, among other things.
Ukraine did suspend a number of pro-Russia political parties recently. Even if it was specifically targeting left-wing parties that still pales in comparison to Russia's treatment of political opposition and let's not forget that Ukraine is currently waging a defensive war against Russia. Also Zelensky is Jewish so i doubt he is putting up Nazi statues or in favor of doing so. I presume you're referring to activity of the Azov Battalion or some other group inside Ukraine and while those are dangerous and problematic, the Nazis in the Russian army are (I suspect) a more serious threat to the Ukrainian people right now.
Russia and Ukraine are basically the same politically, except for there are more Nazis in power in Ukraine. Prior to the invasion Ukraine was categorically ranked as the most corrupt country in Europe, Zelensky himself is in the Panama papers, they absolutely are not good on gay rights either, they overthrew their democratically elected president in 2014 in a CIA backed coup to put in a government handpicked by the U.S. (we can listen to Nuland picking the government on leaked phone calls), they’ve banned political opposition and all leftist parties (not pro-Russia, just all leftists. Being leftist generally means having semi sane takes like not wanting everybody in the country to die, so they had to be banned by the Nazi regime).
Also I didn’t say Russia is a free country, but Ukraine is easily just as bad if not worse, it’s a total farce to make this about freedom or democracy or any of that shit. Hell if democracy in Ukraine was real the war wouldn’t be happening, Zelensky was elected to end the conflict in the Donbass, he went to the front lines and told the Nazis to lay down arms and they told him to fuck off lol. You can watch the video of that happening.
Your characterization is grotesque and you're literally repeating Russia's propaganda about the war. Do you not see that? Or do you see it? Do you know what you are doing with that argument?
they overthrew their democratically elected president in 2014 in a CIA backed coup
This is great, you pro-Russia fuckers are all using the same arguments so i get to re-use my links! You're referring to the Revolution of Dignity, here, for those who don't know.
And you're going to have to provide a source and some details as far as what, exactly, you claim the CIA did. I haven't heard any credible claim that they were more than indirectly involved in propaganda and if that's the standard then Russia was doing the same damn thing if not more.
...we can listen to Nuland picking the government on leaked phone calls...
Presumably you're referring to these leaks, where she talks about how (for example) she doesn't think Vitaly Klitschko should "go into the government". Well, Klitschko became Mayor of Kyiv in 2014 so that's a bit of a blow to your theory.
...they’ve banned political opposition and all leftist parties (not pro-Russia, just all leftists. Being leftist generally means having semi sane takes like not wanting everybody in the country to die, so they had to be banned by the Nazi regime).
And this is just straight up factually wrong. None of this is correct.
Also I didn’t say Russia is a free country, but Ukraine is easily just as bad if not worse
I didn't say you did. I asked: on what merit is Ukraine worse than Russia? You have made that claim multiple times but have not provided one, I see, and nor have you provided a source for your claim. Surely you're not seriously going to claim elections or civil liberties, where Russia is much worse than Ukraine and not just a little worse.
Actually I haven’t made that claim even one time you loser. But is Ukraine even going to have elections any more? I thought they were going to do away with the farce?
Show me the left wing parties that Ukraine hasn’t already banned while not banning Nazis you fucking rube, you useless Reddit liberal.
imagine dying on the “war is bad” hill. i can agree on that point, and i don’t even need to politically align myself with real shitters and make a fool of myself in pseudo-public to do it!
Why are you linking an actual propaganda thinktank as an example as of Uyghur Genocide?
You could link any source, but you link one that is staffed by people who's careers have been purely to lie about American's enemies and push American interests?? I hope you're a little sharper than that and you're just linking that because you hope other people will swallow anything.
"HEY GUYS THIS ORGANIZATION THAT IS PAID TO TELL ME THAT CHINA IS BAD, GET THIS, SAYS CHINA IS BAD!!"
Is there any way I can convince you China is sterilizing and reeducating massive numbers of people in interment camps against their will? It seems like you've just said everything is untrustworthy.
What government? It seems like the website you cited disregarded sources because they were from governments. Do you need Chinese government documents specifically?
Great, so you admit that all you have are the sources previously provided and the inherent flaws they contain We're operating from a point of agreement, then! We do not have strong evidence for the claims being made.
The fact of the matter is that if a genocide was happening there would be evidence of it, but there isn’t. If anything on the order of what’s alleged in these sorts of threads were happening it wouldn’t even be possible to hide it. There would be tens of thousands of refugees flooding into neighboring countries at the very least. Instead, you can literally go walk around Xinjiang and see Uyghur people happily living their lives, or if you don’t want to do that you could watch any of hundreds of videos of other people doing that. Every Muslim majority country in the world sides with China on this issue, and only the US and it’s lackeys (countries famous for their deep concern about the rights of Muslims) are making hay about it.
I want you to think critically about this one. What people point to is an uptick in IUD insertions.
We have seen what sterilization compaigns in other countries look like, such as forced hysterectomies in the US and chemical castration in Israel. IUDs are birth control, they don't sterilize the patient. An appropriately-trained doctor can safely remove one in just a few minutes and I don't think you even need equipment to do so!
Literally even if we were imagining China was forcing women to get IUDs, which it isn't, that's not sterilizing them! Those women would not be sterilized!
But this is part of the endless layers of warping and misrepresentation that make things go from "uptick in IUD insertions"
to Zenz exaggerating the rate by a literal order of magnitude
to hack journalists doing circular citations of Associated Press, etc. making sinister insinuations
to people who don't follow this very closely saying "sterilizing"
Both the US state department and the CIA have had to acknowledge that there is no genocide going on in Xinjiang
That's very misleading. They say they have insufficient proof to say it is racially motivated. (Which is a prerequisite for genocide) But there is certainly great oppression happening there.
Forced sterilisation (birth rates are down 60% vs about 10% for the rest of China) and forceful reeducation? They don't care about the language as much as the shared cultural identity separate from China.
I'm trying to talk in good faith, but I don't have 10 hours to read about it. I've only researched about 1 or 2 hours. But I'm definitely not just taking your website at face value.
If you want to call the discussion off, I'm fine with that. This thread has given an adequate sample of hexbear ideology.
Birth rates were already much lower in the rest of China, did the Han do a genocide on themselves first lol or is declining birth rate the norm in a country with massively improved economic conditions and development, and has that begun to affect the more rural regions of China?
No, that isn’t a clarification. You’re not understanding that the birth rates in the rest of China were already much lower prior to the 10% decrease. The Uighur population has been growing even as the Han population has leveled out, because the Han already had lower birth rates for decades. The Uighur were exempted from the one child policy as well. So yeah, the rest decreased 10%, there was less room to decrease in the first place because birth rates were already very low!
I'm Chinese and literally grew up with Uyghurs downstairs in Hubei, they and the Hui family around the block were the only ones with more than 1 kid.
If you're referring to something Adrian Zenz said about 80% of new IUDs being sold in Xinjiang, he misread a decimal point 328,475 IUDs in Xinjiang out of 3,774,318. 8.7% of IUDs placed in China were in Xinjiang.
News quoted his 80% figure before he had to retract it, but it's already in the back of people's minds that China's forcibly sterilizing Uyghurs.
Being pro Russia, genocide denialism, authoritarianism, being hateful of ideas that don't conform to their worldview, racism (just not towards the same people), the list goes on and on.
Hey, I'm a Hexbear user and I really think you have the wrong impression of what our site is. Idk if you're open to reconsidering or if you're just trying to get a few antagonistic words in but I'll tell you my experience as a long time user:
Being pro Russia
Our site isn't pro-russia. We just want the war to come to a swift end without any further bloodshed. Some people take offense to that because we don't think the best way to do that is to send more guns, tanks, planes, dollars, etc into the warzone. That benefits no one except the arms manufacturers and the money lenders. Not regular people on either side.
genocide denialism
The only thing I can think of that you would be referring to is the "holodomor" or something similar that happened in the USSR. It's not that we deny that many people did die in these horrible tragedies or that there wasn't Soviet government involvement in some of them but that these very real events are being distorted for political reasons by people who want to paint the USSR in a certain, wholly bad, light. As communists (or anarchists), we try to be very open to criticism and new ways of thinking about or doing things but not when the intent is to do historical revisionism to make the people who liberated the concentration camps and ended the crimes of Nazism seem like Nazis under a different name.
Authoritarianism
Well, I guess this is true in a way. As revolutionists, we do seek to change the system by establishing a new authority with the capability to make this change. But have you ever noticed how the current system maintains and perpetuates itself? Sure, you can vote (and we don't seek to abolish that!), but when that fails and working-class people take to the streets seeking change, why is it that people with guns and tear gas and riot shields try to stop them and maybe even imprison them? It's not that leftists are uniquely "authoritarian" but that we want to use that authority for representing regular, working-class people and to bring about a better world where that authority isn't necessary anymore. Our anarchist users probably have a somewhat different take on this but one of them will have to talk about it lol
being hateful of ideas that don't conform to their worldview
Sure, there are a lot of ideas that we hate. But isn't that everyone? I hope we could all agree on hating things like fascism, racism, sexism, transphobia, etc etc. Our users probably feel more strongly about that than most people lol but that's just cuz a lot of us have been targets of those kinds of ideas. Other than stuff like that though... this site has been one of the most accepting places on the Internet in my experience. Sure, we argue a lot (sometimes too zealously lol), but just cuz we care a lot about getting things right. On our site, we don't have downvotes to encourage users to actually challenge bad ideas and voice their opinion instead of just feeling satisfied having slightly influenced an algorithm.
racism (just not towards the same people)
This just hasn't been my experience and I know most of our users would agree. Racism gets swiftly removed on Hexbear and lots of people replying challenging it. Do you have any examples? This has just been so contrary to my time on the site. Unless you mean jokes about white people but I hope I don't have to explain why that's not a problem lol
Anyway, I just want our instances and our users to exist together in peace. I know we have very "different" ideas from what is considered the mainstream in the west and on most of the English-speaking internet but I know our presence on the "fediverse" can be a positive thing and that we can get along. I hope this helps you to understand our site a bit better.
The whole "we want to end the war" argument just reeks. It stinks of russian propaganda. Russia started the war. They invaded Ukraine. Would you have the same viewpoint if the US was the invader? I've seen that comment several times and it kinda starts sounding like a red fascist dogwhistle
It was a low-key civil war, make no mistake about it.
Your government doesn't just allow armed, organised (largely ultranationalist) paramilitary groups to conduct ethnically-motivated attacks on its own soil without their tacit approval, especially not when those same paramilitary groups tended to get absorbed into the state military forces later on.
This isn't the wild west were talking here.
Fuck, if a protest action in your own country can deploy the pointy end of the state against you immediately then the civil war against the easternmost part of Ukraine could have had a police/military response within days rather than leaving it to play out over literal years.
Do you think "anti-white racism" is even remotely as bad as other forms of racism? Or even a problem at all? White people already have all the privileges bestowed upon them by a fundamentally white-supremacist society. Making fun of this concept on our tiny social media website isn't hurting anyone.
Do you think “anti-white racism” is even remotely as bad as other forms of racism?
In the vast majority of cases, no, not even close.
Or even a problem at all?
It's 100% a problem, for multiple reasons. First and foremost, it's racist, so it's already inherently a problem for that reason alone. But it's also a problem because your [hexbear's] moralistic self-righteousness combined with your [hexbear's] obvious hypocrisy gives people opposed to your ideals that much more ammunition (and of course you don't care about that, but that itself is also part of the hexbear problem).
And the worst part is that, as with so many of hexbear's problems, there's no reason for it. It's such an easy problem to fix, and would give an instance like hexbear that supposedly prides itself on its inclusivity such a huge boost in credibility. If you want to set yourselves up as morally unimpeachable, then be morally unimpeachable! Set an actual example, and be leaders that bring people together, not because of compromising your beliefs, but by actually being consistent, steadfast, and intellectually honest about the beliefs you already have.
And sure, I get the importance of having a place where you can feel comfortable and meme hyperbolically about problems you feel are important, and about the people who don't agree with you. That seems to be the direction that most hexbears seem to want to go.
But, in the end, it is racist, and it is disingenuous to promote yourselves as this bastion of anti-racism while encouraging literal racism on your instance and then act all surprised pikachu face when you get called out on it.
It's 100% a problem, for multiple reasons. First and foremost, it's racist, so it's already inherently a problem for that reason alone.
Nothing is "inherently" anything. What makes, for example, anti-black (as contrary to anti-white) racism bad in spaces like this? It furthers the psychological harm caused by the racist material conditions of white-supremacist society and normalizes these conditions. Racist rhetoric is part of the superstructural justification for these conditions that makes the oppressor feel superior and the oppressed feel inferior and like they deserve it. This contradiction does not exist for white people and that is why anti-white racism effectively does not exist, except maybe beyond a limited level in inter-personal relationships. It might make individual white people feel a little bad but it has no material backing.
But it's also a problem because your [hexbear's] moralistic self-righteousness
I'm not the one pearl-clutching over anti-white racism.
combined with your [hexbear's] obvious hypocrisy gives people opposed to your ideals that much more ammunition (and of course you don't care about that, but that itself is also part of the hexbear problem).
This issue doesn't really give anyone "more ammunition" against us. Part of the reason we do keep these kinds of jokes around (besides being funny) is because it tends to out reactionaries (like how you are being right now).
And the worst part is that, as with so many of hexbear's problems, there's no reason for it. It's such an easy problem to fix, and would give an instance like hexbear that supposedly prides itself on its inclusivity such a huge boost in credibility.
I'm pretty sure most of the people making "cracker" jokes on here are white themselves. I don't think Hexbear is known as the "anti-white" instance lol
And sure, I get the importance of having a place where you can feel comfortable and meme hyperbolically about problems you feel are important, and about the people who don't agree with you. That seems to be the direction that most hexbears seem to want to go.
Yeah, I mean that's pretty much what Hexbear is. I don't think anyone here would want to be "morally-unimpeachable leaders" or even to what end that would be.
Would you also say that black people can't be racist towards other black people? 'cuz some people in Rwanda would love to have a discussion with you I'm sure! Heck, Haitians would love to talk about Dominicans with you!
Oh so the definition of being white varies now? People are dermofluid or something? "I'm white skinned but I'm not white."
Also it's still happening today but you would never admit that a white French Canadian or an Irish can be the victim of racism because their skin color somehow makes them immune to it or some shit.
I can't tell how serious you're being but I read a really good book on this subject- The History of White People
The TL;DR on that is that whiteness is a social category, not an objective observation of human beings and their differences. For most of American history, as an example, Anglo-Saxons, Dutch/Low Germans and Scandinavians were considered a superior race to the 'alpine' and 'mediterranean' races of High Germans, Spaniards, and Italians. Irish weren't Anglo-Saxon, they were Celtic and were thus considered inferior. The racism people observe when they see 'Irish need not apply' signs or slurs directed at Italians in the 1800s were because those people were not considered 'white' at the time. It's an over-simplification, but these groups needed to be incorporated into the dominant group before they would be given the treatment we generally think is normal for white people.
Which is very jarring to us, since obviously Irish and Italians and Bavarian Germans are 'white'. But it literally does vary, and the entire purpose of the category is to render people inside of it superior by virtue of belonging to it, it's a category that exists to express supremacy.
"white" is a concept made up to justify slavery and white supremacy. you are actually hitting on something really important, the definition of being white HAS varied widely in history. when the concept of whiteness was first being developed, it was in order to justify categorizing people as white or non-white, and then the eugenics movement ran away with that concept to promote racial supremacy- not racial identity, but racial supremacy. so "white" as a category did indeed refer to specifically condoned peoples with supposed genetic, moral, intellectual superiority. and the definition of "white" did indeed vary then as well as now. irish, italian, slav, spanish, jews were all once distinctly non-white by the definition of "whites" at one point. the definition has changed since then because it has always been a non-scientific concept designed to identify "us" from "them" and justify the subjugation of whoever was considered non-white at the time.
Oh so the definition of being white varies now? People are dermofluid or something? "I'm white skinned but I'm not white."
The definition of being white, like all definitions, can indeed vary based on time and place, yes. Whether someone is white "enough" to be included in the category of "white people" is not an objective fact and will change from culture to culture, from time to time, and even from one individual perspective to the next.
Racial categories in Europe were more complex than they generally are today, especially in America. It's difficult to maintain distinctions in race between different European nationalities when everyone's immigrating to the same place and having kids together, so over time these subtle distinctions have dropped off somewhat in favor of the simpler categories of "white" and "non-white." But some of these distinctions still remain, for instance, many people who identify as "white nationalists" or even "white supremacists" also hate Jews, including Jewish people with white skin. Hitler's infamous 14 words declare that a future must be secured "for our white children," yet clearly he did not consider white-skinned Jewish people to be included in that definition.
As absurd as it may be to say that someone can have white skin but not be considered white, it can happen. The reason it doesn't make sense is because race is, to a large degree, something that is socially constructed and nonsensical.
No one here is pro Russia lol. We just recognize that the war in Ukraine is an intractable meat grinder, and working for peace is more productive than continuing the conflict in an effort to further enrich War Contractors.
Lots of tankies from what I'm seeing, they're the "alt-left" if you will, they believe in just as much weird stuff as the alt-right but are on the left side of the spectrum... Heck they end up meeting on many things...
Could you provide an example of Hexbears agreeing with the alt-right about something specific? I think a lot of people conflate "disagreeing with the liberal consensus" with "thinking a MAGA thing" when they're really pretty different.
They are pro Russia.
Hexbear is very categorically not pro Russia, we're just not pro West
I can't hear you, the Arms Deliverys to Ukraine are to loud!
Fuck you people. You are pro China and Russia.
We are pro China, we are not pro Russia
Same thing.
Taiwan is a Country
Not really. Not even amerikkka agrees
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=JMtopY3pcZs
https://piped.video/watch?v=Vu3zmbFGwQA
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
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Just spamming worthless links to propaganda doesn't make you right.
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Just posting an image of a man who stood in front of an actively moving tank, crawled all over it, then walked away unscathed doesn't prove anything that you think it proves.
Go do that on one of your own military's tanks today. You'd be doing me, yourself, and frankly the entire world a favour if you had the courage to try it.
Lmao imagining this nerd immediately being ventilated because "the soldiers feared for their life."
Why don’t you link a video of this incident instead of just a still image?
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I am incredibly owned rn
It's the 1989 Tiemaman square Tank Man picture and Xi Jinping as Whinnie the Pooh, images commonly censored in China as one of them demonstrates clear oppression and the other discredits the CCP.
Oppression is when you stand in the way of a tank and the tank stops for you, and then you climb on top of the tank and have a conversation with the guy in the tank, and then you walk off completely unharmed
There's a lot more where that came from
http://www.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/tiananmen-square-massacre
Also you can find plenty on reddit by just searching "Tiananmen square"
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/11db77h/tiananmen_square_massacre_1989_bravely/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
https://www.reddit.com/r/eyeblech/comments/q8savh/tiananmen_square_massacre_images/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
https://www.reddit.com/r/eyeblech/comments/v5jbog/1989_tiananmen_square_massacre_protesting_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/v4ryjb/photo_of_the_aftermath_of_tiananmen_square/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Reporters were kept away by force and the CCP tried as hard as they could to hide all evidence. Crushed protestors were washed down drains with hoses, and many were whisked away to secret graves. Despite this, there is still significant photographic evidence
(This was copy pasted from Reddit)
Sorry my dietician told me to stay away from
The first two links have plenty on them though and aren't from Reddit and I can go to archive the rest for you
You believe ridiculous
-tier propaganda about hosing bodies down drains lmao, you have absolutely nothing to offer any discussion.
I understand if you don't want to see. It's very disturbing stuff, and deeply offensive to those who love Xi Jinping thought.
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We've seen it and we've seen the alternative narrative. We tend to disagree with the US and their propaganda machine. Maybe you should question why you would believe them too? When has US propaganda lied?
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Here's the BBC on that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrYGiwhOuBo
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=JMtopY3pcZs
https://piped.video/watch?v=Vu3zmbFGwQA
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=KrYGiwhOuBo
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Hey, did those protestors have bones? Were they wearing clothes? Do you have the first clue about how the human body and/or physics work?
There were actually numerous western reporters in the square and they all say nobody died there, some of them sent off diplomatic cables the same or the next day saying so, which were released by Wikileaks.
Oh, so @CookieJarObserver is using the racist Whinnie the Pooh insult.
As always. Scratch a liberal and a fascist/racist bleeds.
You realize that this picture originated from Chinese social media right?
Things can undergo a transformation, just because the original usage might have been innocent. If something starts being used by white racists or western imperialists in a racist way, would ya look at that, it’s racist.
Also, it’s covert racism. It gives people plausible deniability. Like you are doing now.
And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril
You may be in different circles than me. In my circles, it is used to poke fun at Xi Jinping, not the Chinese people. It is a caricature, just as we draw caricature of our own politicians. Despite the CCP's attempts, Westerners distinguish between race and state. Xi Jinping is not China and China is not Xi Jinping.
There are lot's of ways to criticize a political figure or a government. But you choose the racist caricature.
Back to point 2: it’s covert racism. It gives people plausible deniability.
But, at the end of the day, westerners imperialists love their orientalism and their covert racism.
You do realize the only reason why people keep sharing it is because of the Barbra Streisand effect. People loyal to Xi Jinping thought hate it, so people like me share it because it's funny to see their reaction
I think you should undergo the Barbara Pit effect
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Godwin's law at work https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law
Godwin himself told people to stop invoking that shit because so many Nazis and racists try to use it as deflection.
And you realise that watermelons originated in Africa, right?
You realise that the origin of something doesn't determine the depictions of it supporting racist stereotypes, such as a vast array of disgustingly racist caricatures of black people eating watermelons isn't absolved by the fact that watermelons originated in Africa, right?
Have you ever seen the complete tank man video? he doesn't get run over, while in the authoritarian US state vehicles are often running into peaceful protestors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-W-7WPWfE4
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=q-W-7WPWfE4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=JMtopY3pcZs
https://piped.video/watch?v=Vu3zmbFGwQA
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
How dare those tanks not run over that man! Don't they understand that freedom is when you just plow into people like US security forces do.
Lmao your instance literally blocks it. Just shows how your instance can go fuck themselves.
Our instance doesn't show any externally hosted images, it's not about what's in the image idiot
Its completely irrelevant whats inside the image, the point is you don't get shown it because your instance likes censorship.
The reason we don't show externally hosted images isn't because of censorship it was because of the CSAM thing that happened a bit ago that lemm.ee had a problem with
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correct, we don't allow racism or bigotry on our instance, fashie. sorry that offends you.
Cope.
Poor baby.
Cope.
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classic centrist move, idk why people question their alignment so much
I'm fairly new to Lemmy. What does that signify? something to do with federation I guess? I can see the picture - Xi as Pooh Bear..
Recently someone started trying to bring large Lemmy instances down by posting CSAM on large instances with open sign ups, as a result the hexbear mods made it so that images from untrusted instances wouldn't be shown to hexbear users to avoid hexbear users having to see stuff like that and to reduce the mods workload, idk whether its a temporary measure or not but for now all images from untrusted instances are just replaced with the words *removed externally hosted image* on our end
So in other words our chinese censorship is censoring american freedom?
Thank you, that makes sense.
I had to see and report some offensive material on that line, and while it was quickly removed by our admins I don't think there's any way to actually prevent it.
Apparently there's been some discussion on lemm.ee of getting an AI that will automatically detect CSAM and delete it automatically but idk whether anything will come of it
you're literally pro-nazi and you're complaining about us lmao
Lmao go further supporting genocides.
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They only have state propaganda as their source. Driven insane by Hillary losing because of the Russians and their election interference.
no more half measures walter
Say that more than 3 screen inches from you supporting ethnic cleansing next time please.
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So you support the genocide in Donbas?
When being "not pro west" means not analyzing the conflict but simply adopting the same point of view as Russian propaganda just because Ukraine is supported by the west then yeah, you're pro Russia.
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What is the Russian propaganda that we’re repeating in regard to Ukraine?
Why can't you see the difference? We see the west and Nato as having propagated and profited off of this conflict. Russia is guilty as well as Ukraine in fanning the flames of war. But peace is a far better alternative to war and far better than flooding the area with weapons. Weapons that will continue to do damage long after hostility ends. Pro Russia How?
Just like you analyzed our news megathreads from the last year to make this assessment?
It just fucking baffles me how people from other instances feel so comfortable talking shit straight from their ass. I just don't understand the mentality. It's fucking slimy. You can just do that shit and you don't feel dirty?
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No thanks, I'm not into brigading :)
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Nah, I just don't like being subjected to Chinese propaganda or any other propaganda as a matter of fact...
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If all your sources are propaganda then what does that make your claims? 🤔
Want me to find sources that COVID doesn't exist, that the earth is flat, that the moon landing never happened?
You know just because you have a source behind what you say it doesn't make it right, that's the stuff you learn by staying in school.
Okay, then vet the sources big guy.
Why would I bother finding tons of actual credible sources when I can't expect the same from you?
You actually can and should expect that from us, we’re huge on credible sources and methodology, we’re obsessed with arriving at correct conclusions and that means starting from reliable premises.
Yeah you're huge on credible sources just as much as COVID deniers are, where credible = anything that supports your point of view 👍
You’ll find that we are not COVID deniers, we take COVID more seriously than probably 99% of people, you keep trying to compare us to people who’s views we don’t share at all , people whose views are actually closer to your own, which ought to give you at least some pause.
You talk about finding credible sources when you clearly have the reading comprehension of a 5 years old. I never called you a COVID denier, I compared you to them.
That’s exactly what I said you dingus. You continue COMPARING us to people whose views more closely align with your own. People to your right when we are to your left and you’re fucking projecting your own insufferable right wing tendencies onto us
Just because you reach different conclusion doesn't mean we can't point out the similarities of the process.
Again, I never said you deny COVID exist, I said you use exactly the same logic as they do to reach your own conclusions, i.e. using non credible sources to build your view of the world.
“Your process is the same that’s why you reach opposite conclusions. Meanwhile my process is better that’s why I agree with the Nazis 50% of the time!” Fuck off dipshit.
I agree with the Nazis now? That's a pretty big jump you did there, you might want to try your hand at joining the Olympics team!
Tell us more about how we must fight to the last Ukranian to save grand western civilization from the barbaric asiatic hordes of Russians
So American imperialism bad, Russian imperialism good? 🤔
Russia isn’t doing imperialism, but America was when it backed the 2014 coup to oust the democratically elected government of Ukraine.
...
......
That's some Winnie the Pooh logic right there!
Russia isn't doing imperialism, fucking hell 😂
They’re not. The U.S. doing a regime change coup and putting Nazis in power in Ukraine in 2014 was imperialism, that’s why people living in parts of Ukraine like Crimea decided they didn’t want to be a part of that country anymore. Also I have no idea what Winnie the Pooh logic is supposed to mean.
Just bog standard racism/yellow peril
You might be shocked to realize that I was already well into adulthood in early 2014 when the Euromaidan took place - as in Obama with his shriveled fleshlight Joe Biden decided to stick their noses in Ukraine (on their way to Syria and Yemen of course) caught in 1080p because Yakunovich would hinder MIC's profits to put it simply.
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brb, off to reinstate the Ministerium für Staatssicherheit
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This thread is fucking littered with comrades begging you to read, but you just sit there and say "doesn't look like anything to me" like it's Westworld or some shit and then keep on bashing us. It's amazing, truly.
Your missed the word "credible" there
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...except if it originates in
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Why do you think it is impossible to just dislike two things at once?
Mostly about China and North Korea.
Alt right and alt left both deny Uyghur camps, and think Kim Jong Un is pretty awesome.
In my experience alt right folks are pretty anti China, to the point where that is often the reason they oppose the Ukraine war, as it is dividing the attention of the Christian west from the rising, menacing Tigers that threaten white society.
Hexbears are often skeptical of Adrian Zenz who is usually the source of claims about China. Most that I've seen acknowledge that there are camps (China openly says it is running programs to deradicalize separatists and fundamentalists in the region), but disagree that they are as bad as western media depicts them, and would probably argue that western nations are concern trolling about the issue regardless because it is easy to question whether American foreign policy is motivated by concern for Muslims. Genuinely curious, who is an alt-right guy who doesn't think there are camps in Xinjiang? I've never encountered a pro-Chinese reactionary.
As to Korea I thought MAGA types just memed about Kim Jong Un because Trump sort of got along with him. Hexbears think that the Korean War was bad and that Korea is acting predictably given that a nuclear power is constantly threatening them with annihilation. There are a variety of positions in Hexbear on the DPRK though, and I can't really account for all of them, but I think they arise out of a genuine anti-imperial and anti-war sentiment, and a healthy doze of skepticism of western narratives of a state enemy. I don't think you could say that for the alt right.
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Trump derangement syndrome is all too real and the proof is how liberals reacted to him trying to end the Korean war.
Same thing with Afghanistan.
Alt Right and alt left both deny the existence of the tooth fairy
Last I checked the alt right believes them same claims about the world that dems do in terms of the supposed camps, they just think they are good because the alt right hates muslims
You guys and the MAGA types seem to have very similar views on the Russia/Ukraine situation at the moment.
Could you be more specific?
I think, for example, that most alt-right types oppose the war either because of chauvinistic beliefs about American boys and American blood and treasure being spent on foreigners, or because they would like to work together with Russia to counter China and think a war with them hurts the white struggle against the eastern hordes. No one on hexbear would defend either of those positions.
It needs to be more specific than "both of you are against continuing the war." Just like it wouldn't be fair for me to accuse you of being alt- right because you and them both agree that there weren't WMDs in Iraq and that that invasion was sold on false pretenses. You might both technically agree but it would be missing the point.
It's theories about how spheres of influence work, that Russia has a right to take over Ukraine, or at least override it politically. Very much similar to Kissinger's Great power politics in the days of the USSR. It's somewhat different than the Russian right which is their divine right to Empire, over the Ukrainians and the Poles and Slavic countries in general. The ideologues Ivan Ilyin and Karl Schmidt influence that part. But notably, both parts believe that there's a place that Russia must dominate in Europe, and that other great powers must not interfere there. Leftists also are influenced by these theories, especially when they remember the reaches of the Iron Curtain far into Central Europe. The USSR had a history of intervening into the politics of its satellite states. Notably in Hungary when there were democratic protests, they sent in tanks to quell the uprising. This theory echoes in 2014 when the Ukrainians changed their government, and Russia invades and annexes Crimea. Many on the far left and far right see the massive protests as creeping American influence that does not belong in the region. They fear NATO expansion as it is a threat to Russia; In the west it's Russia itself, and in Russia, it's Russian greatness in Empire.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Liberals don't believe that countries exert influence on other countries around them? You think Joe Biden objects to the concept of spheres of influence? You brought up Kissinger, you don't think US foreign policy is operating under the logic of realpolitik? I'm not sure what the alternative is to believing that countries act to pursue their interests in other countries. That just sounds like a description of the concept of foreign policy.
You’re talking about the fascist uprising where they went around marking the houses of Jews and Communists for extermination, like only a decade after the Soviets saved the world from Hitler?
we want an immediate end to the war. in what way does wanting an end to the death make us comparable with the alt-right?
How is being pro russia and wanting war to end in any way compatible though? They invaded Ukraine. They literally started a war. That's a pretty disgusting deflection tbh
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Russia started a war. Ukraine has two choices. Surrender and end the bloodshed, or fight tooth and nail and pour more innocent people into the meat grinder and then surrender. There is not a third option. Obviously they should choose the former.
NATO/US started the war when they couped the democratically elected Ukrainian government in 2014, and when the US installed regime started bombing civilians in the Donbass
Oh so Russia is just saving Ukrainians from US imperialism by bombing them and committing war crimes. Thank god for our wonderful leader putin o7
Where did I say any of that? I was simply correcting the poster about who the original instigators of the conflict were, and pointing out the fact that the banderite regime has been killing innocent Ukrainians for years, history did not begin in February 2022
Acknowledging the US's role in creating the conflict and the crimes of the regime they installed is not the same as supporting Russia's actions
Calling for an immediate end to the war is dishonest and supports Russia
We’re just not keeping our head in the sand here. Ukraine is not taking back Crimea, or even the Donbas. The counteroffensive failed horribly. Cheering for more bloodshed isn’t going to make a better outcome in the end.
"cheering for more bloodshed." Are you telling on yourself? You act like a counteroffensive is supposed to be fast and easy. It's not, war is bloody and deadly and Russia is not going to call for peace until they achieve their objective of overthrowing the Ukrainian government or achieving a peace deal where they can keep Ukraine's economic sectors
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You act like peace deals are the same thing as calls for peace. They can still have peace deals to appear they want peace when they started the war in the first place back in 2014
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Did these ethnically Russian people want to be apart of Russia?
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Some Russians who maybe maybe not that lived in the area fought against Ukraine which means they wanted autonomy therefore it's ok for Russia to annex and invade Ukraine
Quick question: did you know about any of this before today? Did you know about the Maidan Coup? Did you know about the nearly 15,000 casualties, including over 3000 civilian casualties, in Luhansk/Donbas between 2014 and 2022? Were you aware of the extensive reporting by western sources on far right elements in Ukraine committing crimes against humanity?
If any of that was news to you, do you think it's ever appropriate to pause and reassess your position? Or are you just going to double, triple, and quadruple down on your fairy-tale understanding of the world with smug quips that don't address anything of substance?
you provide links proving any of your points
do it right now
Yall calling for the continuation of the war are telling on yourselves. Otherwise you'd fucking be fighting rather than advocating behind a computer for others to die. Too scared to go to Spain and fight the fascists?
Oh man the the US union should've just given up the civil war instead of continuing the fighting. Think of all the good Americans that will die. Let's just let the confederates secede instead of having a bloody conflict
You think the country that has a national holiday to celebrate their Nazi era leader is the Union in this analogy?
And there the conversation goes. Ukraine is actually Nazi and it's ok to kidnap and bomb the Ukrainian citizens because the country is openly nazi
Just using the trappings of sarcasm in your reply doesn't negate the fact that I reported is in fact true. They openly celebrate their nazi history.
The conversation goes that way because there lies the truth.
The truth doesn't happen just because you say it does. Can you link anything to prove what you said or do you just pretend your worldview is the truth
have you provided any? I see plenty of links being provided all over the place by hexbears, but it seems the vast majority of you SJW can't remember how to copy paste on your computer
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*brings up an odious historical comparison in a hamfisted attempt at an analogy*
*someone else brings up history relevant to the country in question*
"How dare you!?"
Nice false equivalent. Keep trying.
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It's September. Their window to make any gains in their counteroffensive has passed. Now they have to fight against the weather on top of the Russians.
The only progress the counteroffensive has made is in destroying Western materiel and getting scores of Ukrainians killed. They haven’t even reached the second defensive line yet. The total amount of territory retaken is like 100 meters of farmland. I’m calling it a failure because it is a failure.
Hey, it's made a lot of money for the military-industrial complex too!
You can't call it a wash like that when, back home, the almighty line is going up.
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"Ukraine should surrender so that they can spare their civilian and combatant lives to Russia which totally won't abuse their land and people as they've done in the past"
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https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/putins-war-vanishing-goals#:~:text=So%2C%20before%20the%20start%20of,of%20Luhansk%20and%20Donetsk%20oblasts.
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So wait. Your criteria for who should win is based on the aftermath... So you think Ukraine should be allowed to complete it's ethnic cleansing?
What ethnic cleansing?
There were pogroms and mass murders at the ground level and there were laws targeting Russian speakers from the governmental level. The weapons Trump was impeached for tying political favors to were being used against resistance militias. They were being used to bomb facilities built in the soviet era that pump hot water into people's homes as the local method of heating during the winter. They locked over a hundred people in a building and burned them alive in it. They broke multiple treaties with Russia in order to do all of this. This was the lead up to the war.
Thank you for your source
Use google you lazy motherfucker
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Everyone has seen how you respond to being given sources, why would they bother?
Whoop, there it is! I'm quoting that for posterity before you delete this comment.
You're literally denying an attempted genocide right now, y'know that?
What attempted genocide? You didn't answer my question. I love the fascist playbook of "don't play defense" in action.
I'm not the person who you responded to.
I'm talking about the targeting of ethnically Russian Ukrainians in the eastern part of Ukraine (the Donbas region.)
There has been attacks against these people going on since 2014. Thousands upon thousands have died and more have been wounded in this low-grade civil war that became the prelude to the war between Russia and Ukraine.
Here's a western article filtered through western intelligence describing the situation with some glaring oversights, namely that there has been ultranationalist paramilitary forces operating in the Donbas (Azov, Right Sector, C14, National Militia, OUN et al.) with tacit approval from the Ukrainian government since 2014 and that civilian targets have been routinely been used by the military and the paramilitary groups.
Here's a short article written by a former USAID officer (!) published by The Atlantic Council (!!) that describes the problem with far-right militias in Ukraine, just so there's no accusations of bias from me in this discussion.
They've literally been targeting civilians who are of the "wrong" ethnicity for nearly a decade now. If that doesn't count as an attempted genocide, I don't know what would.
Also that's some cheap framing of the discussion btw. Fascism isn't "don't play defence". I take it that you have gotten your picture of fascism from a particular, well-known YouTube series. If so, that series is critically flawed and it does a bad job of defining fascism and how it functions. But that's a different discussion altogether.
Russia could make that happen, you know. They could pull their forces out. Right now, that would end the conflict.
Do you think we’re in charge of the Russian military? The war is going to end eventually one way or another. We might as well push for the path that preserves Ukrainian lives.
Are we in charge of the Ukrainian military? Not that it really matters, but still.
Russia can unilaterally end the conflict. Ukraine cannot (yet). Calling on Ukrainians to surrender while they still want to defend themselves is cowardice. I would rather support their continued struggle.
And Ukraine could have prevented all of this by simply abiding by the several peace deals they signed before the war started. What's your point?
Oh, so Russia deciding to invade Ukraine is the fault of the Ukrainians? Cool. Very normal opinion.
You just insulted me with the sole thrust being that I'm not in your echo chamber.
I'm referencing real world events. Do you not believe Ukraine broke both Minsk I and II as a lead up to the war? Do you not have google?
e: And what's this weasel bullshit where you slipped in 'Ukrainians' like I'm going after the citizens and not the government? The Ukrainian people haven't had a legitimate government since 2014 when the one they actually elected themselves was deposed in a far right western backed coup.
What I think is that it doesn't matter in the context of an aggressive war against a country that was not threatening Russia.
Minsk I came about after the Russian military had invaded and annexed Ukrainian territory. The first of these two agreements is already taking place after the initial aggression and thus are not really factors in the question of whether Ukraine should defend itself from that aggression.
With that said, Minsk I saw violations on both sides and fell apart for that reason. Minsk II was fundamentally similar to Minsk I and thus was going to struggle to escape the same fate. While the Russians claimed that Ukraine violated the terms of Minsk II, they also claimed that they were not a party to Minsk II and thus were not violating it with their own troop buildup. Of course, they also claim that Ukraine's supposed violations of Minsk II were justification for further Russian invasion, despite claiming to not be a party to the treaty. That's some duplicitous behavior and, again, if I were in Ukraine I would not want the Russian military in my country.
All that said, the point that Minsk I and II are not justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They sure as hell were not justification for the initial invasion of Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk (not existing yet during those) and they're not justification of Russia's continued invasion deeper into Ukraine.
Lol well that's just a fucking lie. Zelenksy was openly threatening to host nuclear weapons for Nato on the eve of the invasion. Do you have a selective memory or are you just fucking ignorant of the entire history of this conflict and should therefore shut the fuck up?
They didn't invade; they were already there. The legitimate government of Ukraine leased the naval base to them in Crimea and when the western backed coup government wanted to revoke the lease they simply stayed. Accuse them of squatting.
Well that's just fucking stupid. Peace treaties don't count if they came after a war?
Sorry you just lost my attention with that one
Do you understand that there's a difference between hosting weapons in your country and (let's say) invading another country and (for example) launching missile strikes at civilians? (And can i just say? That Wikipedia page just keeps going and going.)
Let's also not forget about Russia continuously threatening to nuke Ukraine without commensurate nuclear threat from the other side. (They just keep doing it!)
Really, if we go back to the start of this (the pre-Crimea days), Ukraine had two futures. In one, it grew closer to Russia and came under the Russian sphere of influence. In the other, it grew closer to the West likewise. It was leaning in the direction of the West, but when Russia attacked it sure as hell pushed hard in that direction. Now everyone in the region wants to get in on NATO and Russia is claiming that's "provocation". That's nonsense, and it's shameful and pretty slimy to carry water for their nonsense.
I dunno how to tell you this but the entirety of Crimea is not Russia's private naval base. No, not even if Vladimir Putin really wants it.
You mean the Revolution of Dignity??? That's what you're talking about here, right?
No, that's not the argument. The argument is that whether or not they broke a cease fire has no bearing on whether past or future invasions of their country are justified. The Russian invasion was unjustified from the start. It doesn't magically become justified because Russia claims the other side broke a peace treaty. Russia could withdraw at any time. They could have even withdrawn to Crimea and probably been fine. Again, they claimed to not even be party to the treaty!
These are some pretty shameful arguments, overall.
Oh shit I didn't know they gave it a glorious sounding name. I guess fascists didn't have anything to do with it and then immediately making a Nazi war criminal a national hero with a holiday on the first day of every year. Fuck I didn't know you were going to post entire wikipedia articles with the name of the thing you googled to find it.
I guess when you overthrow the democratically elected leader of a country and then immediately start passing laws to marginalize his biggest voting bloc it's fine as long as you call the coup something patriotic.
Yeah. Your arguments (i.e. using multiple question marks so as to mug to the audience) are pretty fucking shameful.
Baby brain
Are you just stupid, or are you deliberately lying right here? Yanukovych was couped precisely because he WASN'T leaning towards the west. Did he flee to Poland when your fascists were threatening his life?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/07/19/zrjy-j19.html
If you don't want your civilians to be hit by rocket fire then you shouldn't use them as human shields. And you shouldn't support a regime that deliberately puts its own citizens in harms way to score propaganda points.
I, uh, do not think you're going to get very far trying to claim the (if you prefer) 2014 Ukrainian revolution was some kind of Nazi plot. I don't really feel the need to engage further on this, I'll simply say: you are wrong.
Oh good, now we're doing this.
Yeah, because there was a significant chunk of Ukraine that wanted to integrate more with the West while Yanukovych was a lot more hesitant. Like I said, there were two paths they could go on.
This is, uh, a fucking disgraceful argument to make. Yeah you found one example of where the Ukrainian military got a little too close to civilians. Now how about the rest of them?
UN investigations have concluded the invading Russian forces have committed many types of attacks against civilians which constitute war crimes.
A few samples from the article:
And yes, they did find some Ukrainian war crimes were committed, but not on the same scale:
You said that breaking peace treaties isn't a valid justification for starting a war
This is after I already said you exhausted my patience with extremely stupid shit you said earlier
Why do you feel like your opinion is worth hearing if you spend zero time informing yourself to have one?
Damn too bad they’re not going to do that, so what should we do about that? We support a negotiated settlement to the conflict in order to achieve peace, you support marching every single Ukrainian person into a meat grinder to die. Which of is more right wing?
This isn't about us. What "we" should do is to support and show solidarity with the side being attacked by an imperialist, dictatorial state and help them defend themselves.
When the Finnish were defending themselves in the Winter War it would not have been just to say "they should just surrender to save their lives". The Finns did eventually surrender, but only after they had stomped the Soviet army all across Finland. They continued fighting not to die but so that they could live.
The Ukrainians are fighting now not to die but so that they can live in (relative) freedom.
Again, this "we should just capitulate to whatever warmongers want" stuff is shameful and cowardly, doubly so for people on the Left.
Lol of all the examples, you pick another group of Nazis as a favorable point of comparison!! Wtf. Thank GOD the Soviets beat the Finnish Nazis in that war and then went on to beat the German Nazis after that.
Also lmao at calling Ukraine a free country compared to Russia, it’s just as fucked politically even prior to this invasion, now they’ve banned all left wing parties and are putting up statues of Nazis all over the place, fuck off, this has nothing at all to do with freedom.
Finland allied with the Nazis after the Winter War, in an attempt to regain their sovereignty from the USSR. They were not allied with Nazi Germany during the Winter War--and after the war, the leadership of the USSR agreed that Finland was not a particular risk and could be left alone.
Ukraine is a far, far freer country than Russia. Of that there should be no doubt. On what merit, what axis, is Russia a freer society? Perhaps there is one, but Russia today is a corrupt, dictatorial, fascist state whose ruling party routinely imprisons or assassinates its political opposition or just general dissidents. They're also hardcore anti-gay, among other things.
Ukraine did suspend a number of pro-Russia political parties recently. Even if it was specifically targeting left-wing parties that still pales in comparison to Russia's treatment of political opposition and let's not forget that Ukraine is currently waging a defensive war against Russia. Also Zelensky is Jewish so i doubt he is putting up Nazi statues or in favor of doing so. I presume you're referring to activity of the Azov Battalion or some other group inside Ukraine and while those are dangerous and problematic, the Nazis in the Russian army are (I suspect) a more serious threat to the Ukrainian people right now.
Russia and Ukraine are basically the same politically, except for there are more Nazis in power in Ukraine. Prior to the invasion Ukraine was categorically ranked as the most corrupt country in Europe, Zelensky himself is in the Panama papers, they absolutely are not good on gay rights either, they overthrew their democratically elected president in 2014 in a CIA backed coup to put in a government handpicked by the U.S. (we can listen to Nuland picking the government on leaked phone calls), they’ve banned political opposition and all leftist parties (not pro-Russia, just all leftists. Being leftist generally means having semi sane takes like not wanting everybody in the country to die, so they had to be banned by the Nazi regime).
Also I didn’t say Russia is a free country, but Ukraine is easily just as bad if not worse, it’s a total farce to make this about freedom or democracy or any of that shit. Hell if democracy in Ukraine was real the war wouldn’t be happening, Zelensky was elected to end the conflict in the Donbass, he went to the front lines and told the Nazis to lay down arms and they told him to fuck off lol. You can watch the video of that happening.
Now you're just saying shit you wish were true. Come on. There are some pretty big differences.
The president of Ukraine is Jewish and his family fought and died in WW2. This doesn't mean there's no problem, but that is not indicative of a country overcome by Nazis.
Your characterization is grotesque and you're literally repeating Russia's propaganda about the war. Do you not see that? Or do you see it? Do you know what you are doing with that argument?
This is great, you pro-Russia fuckers are all using the same arguments so i get to re-use my links! You're referring to the Revolution of Dignity, here, for those who don't know.
And you're going to have to provide a source and some details as far as what, exactly, you claim the CIA did. I haven't heard any credible claim that they were more than indirectly involved in propaganda and if that's the standard then Russia was doing the same damn thing if not more.
Presumably you're referring to these leaks, where she talks about how (for example) she doesn't think Vitaly Klitschko should "go into the government". Well, Klitschko became Mayor of Kyiv in 2014 so that's a bit of a blow to your theory.
And this is just straight up factually wrong. None of this is correct.
I didn't say you did. I asked: on what merit is Ukraine worse than Russia? You have made that claim multiple times but have not provided one, I see, and nor have you provided a source for your claim. Surely you're not seriously going to claim elections or civil liberties, where Russia is much worse than Ukraine and not just a little worse.
Lmfao it’s Wikipedia bwahahaha you idiots are all the same.
Actually I haven’t made that claim even one time you loser. But is Ukraine even going to have elections any more? I thought they were going to do away with the farce?
Show me the left wing parties that Ukraine hasn’t already banned while not banning Nazis you fucking rube, you useless Reddit liberal.
imagine dying on the “war is bad” hill. i can agree on that point, and i don’t even need to politically align myself with real shitters and make a fool of myself in pseudo-public to do it!
imagine not thinking war is bad. imagine believing American propaganda given its track record.
Bro, this war is totally different to every other war, bro!
Trust me, bro! I know we got duped into supporting:
The Korean War
The Vietnam War
The war in Iraq
The other war in Iraq
The war in Afghanistan
The war in the Philippines
The war in Guatemala
The war on Cuba
The war in Laos
The war in Cambodia
The war in Somalia
The war in Yemen
The war in Libya
The war in Grenada
The war in Yugoslavia
...but this time it's an existential threat!! Trust me, bro!
art
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I find these terms agreeable
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"Very" implies you've drilled down beyond the very first superficial similarity.
Please offer two things in which we have in common since you're clearly not just talking out of your ass.
boo hoo someone is to your left politically and you're mad about it.
The only person that looks mad here is you...
cope
name literally a single one or quit spreading this bullshit.
Genocide denial.
Denounce the US genocide against Martians right now or you're a genocide denier.
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I had some conversations here. They were saying that China isn't doing anything to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. That seems like genocide denial to me.
Why are you linking an actual propaganda thinktank as an example as of Uyghur Genocide?
You could link any source, but you link one that is staffed by people who's careers have been purely to lie about American's enemies and push American interests?? I hope you're a little sharper than that and you're just linking that because you hope other people will swallow anything.
"HEY GUYS THIS ORGANIZATION THAT IS PAID TO TELL ME THAT CHINA IS BAD, GET THIS, SAYS CHINA IS BAD!!"
Come on bud.
You want the wiki?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
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It isn't the government, and the sources cited within are very good. Would you only accept China or Russia's word for it? Or are western sources okay?
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Is there any way I can convince you China is sterilizing and reeducating massive numbers of people in interment camps against their will? It seems like you've just said everything is untrustworthy.
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What government? It seems like the website you cited disregarded sources because they were from governments. Do you need Chinese government documents specifically?
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No problem buddy, let just quickly break into that one chinese government archive where they got all their nasty stuff, should be easy ;^)
Great, so you admit that all you have are the sources previously provided and the inherent flaws they contain
We're operating from a point of agreement, then! We do not have strong evidence for the claims being made.
The fact of the matter is that if a genocide was happening there would be evidence of it, but there isn’t. If anything on the order of what’s alleged in these sorts of threads were happening it wouldn’t even be possible to hide it. There would be tens of thousands of refugees flooding into neighboring countries at the very least. Instead, you can literally go walk around Xinjiang and see Uyghur people happily living their lives, or if you don’t want to do that you could watch any of hundreds of videos of other people doing that. Every Muslim majority country in the world sides with China on this issue, and only the US and it’s lackeys (countries famous for their deep concern about the rights of Muslims) are making hay about it.
I want you to think critically about this one. What people point to is an uptick in IUD insertions.
We have seen what sterilization compaigns in other countries look like, such as forced hysterectomies in the US and chemical castration in Israel. IUDs are birth control, they don't sterilize the patient. An appropriately-trained doctor can safely remove one in just a few minutes and I don't think you even need equipment to do so!
Literally even if we were imagining China was forcing women to get IUDs, which it isn't, that's not sterilizing them! Those women would not be sterilized!
But this is part of the endless layers of warping and misrepresentation that make things go from "uptick in IUD insertions"
to Zenz exaggerating the rate by a literal order of magnitude
to hack journalists doing circular citations of Associated Press, etc. making sinister insinuations
to people who don't follow this very closely saying "sterilizing"
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That's very misleading. They say they have insufficient proof to say it is racially motivated. (Which is a prerequisite for genocide) But there is certainly great oppression happening there.
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Forced sterilisation (birth rates are down 60% vs about 10% for the rest of China) and forceful reeducation? They don't care about the language as much as the shared cultural identity separate from China.
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I'm trying to talk in good faith, but I don't have 10 hours to read about it. I've only researched about 1 or 2 hours. But I'm definitely not just taking your website at face value.
If you want to call the discussion off, I'm fine with that. This thread has given an adequate sample of hexbear ideology.
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lol
Birth rates were already much lower in the rest of China, did the Han do a genocide on themselves first lol or is declining birth rate the norm in a country with massively improved economic conditions and development, and has that begun to affect the more rural regions of China?
That's why I clarified that there was a approx. 10% across the county vs a 60% decrease in that area.
No, that isn’t a clarification. You’re not understanding that the birth rates in the rest of China were already much lower prior to the 10% decrease. The Uighur population has been growing even as the Han population has leveled out, because the Han already had lower birth rates for decades. The Uighur were exempted from the one child policy as well. So yeah, the rest decreased 10%, there was less room to decrease in the first place because birth rates were already very low!
Why would the CPC, in the same breath, exempt the Uyghurs from the One Child Policy but also force sterilization?
Maybe? Then they can look like they're not limiting the population while doing it covertly.
I'm Chinese and literally grew up with Uyghurs downstairs in Hubei, they and the Hui family around the block were the only ones with more than 1 kid.
If you're referring to something Adrian Zenz said about 80% of new IUDs being sold in Xinjiang, he misread a decimal point 328,475 IUDs in Xinjiang out of 3,774,318. 8.7% of IUDs placed in China were in Xinjiang.
News quoted his 80% figure before he had to retract it, but it's already in the back of people's minds that China's forcibly sterilizing Uyghurs.
Hell yeah I'm a genocide denier.
I deny white genocide without any remorse 😎
So you believe in White Genocide?
Being pro Russia, genocide denialism, authoritarianism, being hateful of ideas that don't conform to their worldview, racism (just not towards the same people), the list goes on and on.
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Hey, I'm a Hexbear user and I really think you have the wrong impression of what our site is. Idk if you're open to reconsidering or if you're just trying to get a few antagonistic words in but I'll tell you my experience as a long time user:
Our site isn't pro-russia. We just want the war to come to a swift end without any further bloodshed. Some people take offense to that because we don't think the best way to do that is to send more guns, tanks, planes, dollars, etc into the warzone. That benefits no one except the arms manufacturers and the money lenders. Not regular people on either side.
The only thing I can think of that you would be referring to is the "holodomor" or something similar that happened in the USSR. It's not that we deny that many people did die in these horrible tragedies or that there wasn't Soviet government involvement in some of them but that these very real events are being distorted for political reasons by people who want to paint the USSR in a certain, wholly bad, light. As communists (or anarchists), we try to be very open to criticism and new ways of thinking about or doing things but not when the intent is to do historical revisionism to make the people who liberated the concentration camps and ended the crimes of Nazism seem like Nazis under a different name.
Well, I guess this is true in a way. As revolutionists, we do seek to change the system by establishing a new authority with the capability to make this change. But have you ever noticed how the current system maintains and perpetuates itself? Sure, you can vote (and we don't seek to abolish that!), but when that fails and working-class people take to the streets seeking change, why is it that people with guns and tear gas and riot shields try to stop them and maybe even imprison them? It's not that leftists are uniquely "authoritarian" but that we want to use that authority for representing regular, working-class people and to bring about a better world where that authority isn't necessary anymore. Our anarchist users probably have a somewhat different take on this but one of them will have to talk about it lol
Sure, there are a lot of ideas that we hate. But isn't that everyone? I hope we could all agree on hating things like fascism, racism, sexism, transphobia, etc etc. Our users probably feel more strongly about that than most people lol but that's just cuz a lot of us have been targets of those kinds of ideas. Other than stuff like that though... this site has been one of the most accepting places on the Internet in my experience. Sure, we argue a lot (sometimes too zealously lol), but just cuz we care a lot about getting things right. On our site, we don't have downvotes to encourage users to actually challenge bad ideas and voice their opinion instead of just feeling satisfied having slightly influenced an algorithm.
This just hasn't been my experience and I know most of our users would agree. Racism gets swiftly removed on Hexbear and lots of people replying challenging it. Do you have any examples? This has just been so contrary to my time on the site. Unless you mean jokes about white people but I hope I don't have to explain why that's not a problem lol
Anyway, I just want our instances and our users to exist together in peace. I know we have very "different" ideas from what is considered the mainstream in the west and on most of the English-speaking internet but I know our presence on the "fediverse" can be a positive thing and that we can get along. I hope this helps you to understand our site a bit better.
The whole "we want to end the war" argument just reeks. It stinks of russian propaganda. Russia started the war. They invaded Ukraine. Would you have the same viewpoint if the US was the invader? I've seen that comment several times and it kinda starts sounding like a red fascist dogwhistle
The war did not start in 2022, your analysis of what has been happening before the invasion needs to go back before that.
Ok
I guess instead of "war" I should have said "conflict" btw
It was a low-key civil war, make no mistake about it.
Your government doesn't just allow armed, organised (largely ultranationalist) paramilitary groups to conduct ethnically-motivated attacks on its own soil without their tacit approval, especially not when those same paramilitary groups tended to get absorbed into the state military forces later on.
This isn't the wild west were talking here.
Fuck, if a protest action in your own country can deploy the pointy end of the state against you immediately then the civil war against the easternmost part of Ukraine could have had a police/military response within days rather than leaving it to play out over literal years.
No sure, I get where you're coming from, but for the purposes of the other poster I think it was best to adjust my language.
At the time time, it's also best for the purposes of the other poster to reply with your perspective as well haha
dude history has a context
🤡🤡🤡
Do you think "anti-white racism" is even remotely as bad as other forms of racism? Or even a problem at all? White people already have all the privileges bestowed upon them by a fundamentally white-supremacist society. Making fun of this concept on our tiny social media website isn't hurting anyone.
In the vast majority of cases, no, not even close.
It's 100% a problem, for multiple reasons. First and foremost, it's racist, so it's already inherently a problem for that reason alone. But it's also a problem because your [hexbear's] moralistic self-righteousness combined with your [hexbear's] obvious hypocrisy gives people opposed to your ideals that much more ammunition (and of course you don't care about that, but that itself is also part of the hexbear problem).
And the worst part is that, as with so many of hexbear's problems, there's no reason for it. It's such an easy problem to fix, and would give an instance like hexbear that supposedly prides itself on its inclusivity such a huge boost in credibility. If you want to set yourselves up as morally unimpeachable, then be morally unimpeachable! Set an actual example, and be leaders that bring people together, not because of compromising your beliefs, but by actually being consistent, steadfast, and intellectually honest about the beliefs you already have.
And sure, I get the importance of having a place where you can feel comfortable and meme hyperbolically about problems you feel are important, and about the people who don't agree with you. That seems to be the direction that most hexbears seem to want to go.
But, in the end, it is racist, and it is disingenuous to promote yourselves as this bastion of anti-racism while encouraging literal racism on your instance and then act all surprised pikachu face when you get called out on it.
Nothing is "inherently" anything. What makes, for example, anti-black (as contrary to anti-white) racism bad in spaces like this? It furthers the psychological harm caused by the racist material conditions of white-supremacist society and normalizes these conditions. Racist rhetoric is part of the superstructural justification for these conditions that makes the oppressor feel superior and the oppressed feel inferior and like they deserve it. This contradiction does not exist for white people and that is why anti-white racism effectively does not exist, except maybe beyond a limited level in inter-personal relationships. It might make individual white people feel a little bad but it has no material backing.
I'm not the one pearl-clutching over anti-white racism.
This issue doesn't really give anyone "more ammunition" against us. Part of the reason we do keep these kinds of jokes around (besides being funny) is because it tends to out reactionaries (like how you are being right now).
I'm pretty sure most of the people making "cracker" jokes on here are white themselves. I don't think Hexbear is known as the "anti-white" instance lol
Yeah, I mean that's pretty much what Hexbear is. I don't think anyone here would want to be "morally-unimpeachable leaders" or even to what end that would be.
i don't care about being racist toward white 'people'
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"Up yours, woke moralists! 😠 We'll see who cancels who."
Can't be racist against white people
Really? Go tell that to Jews... Or the Irish... Or Acadians (heck, french Canadians in general)... The list goes on and on...
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Man, that goalpost must be fucking light for you guys to move it around that often!
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Would you also say that black people can't be racist towards other black people? 'cuz some people in Rwanda would love to have a discussion with you I'm sure! Heck, Haitians would love to talk about Dominicans with you!
I would say it would depend on the structural conditions and who holds power over whom
can't be racist against white people
"goes on to name people crackers excluded from the 'white' definition in order to colonize them"
Oh so the definition of being white varies now? People are dermofluid or something? "I'm white skinned but I'm not white."
Also it's still happening today but you would never admit that a white French Canadian or an Irish can be the victim of racism because their skin color somehow makes them immune to it or some shit.
I can't tell how serious you're being but I read a really good book on this subject- The History of White People
The TL;DR on that is that whiteness is a social category, not an objective observation of human beings and their differences. For most of American history, as an example, Anglo-Saxons, Dutch/Low Germans and Scandinavians were considered a superior race to the 'alpine' and 'mediterranean' races of High Germans, Spaniards, and Italians. Irish weren't Anglo-Saxon, they were Celtic and were thus considered inferior. The racism people observe when they see 'Irish need not apply' signs or slurs directed at Italians in the 1800s were because those people were not considered 'white' at the time. It's an over-simplification, but these groups needed to be incorporated into the dominant group before they would be given the treatment we generally think is normal for white people.
Which is very jarring to us, since obviously Irish and Italians and Bavarian Germans are 'white'. But it literally does vary, and the entire purpose of the category is to render people inside of it superior by virtue of belonging to it, it's a category that exists to express supremacy.
"white" is a concept made up to justify slavery and white supremacy. you are actually hitting on something really important, the definition of being white HAS varied widely in history. when the concept of whiteness was first being developed, it was in order to justify categorizing people as white or non-white, and then the eugenics movement ran away with that concept to promote racial supremacy- not racial identity, but racial supremacy. so "white" as a category did indeed refer to specifically condoned peoples with supposed genetic, moral, intellectual superiority. and the definition of "white" did indeed vary then as well as now. irish, italian, slav, spanish, jews were all once distinctly non-white by the definition of "whites" at one point. the definition has changed since then because it has always been a non-scientific concept designed to identify "us" from "them" and justify the subjugation of whoever was considered non-white at the time.
The definition of being white, like all definitions, can indeed vary based on time and place, yes. Whether someone is white "enough" to be included in the category of "white people" is not an objective fact and will change from culture to culture, from time to time, and even from one individual perspective to the next.
Racial categories in Europe were more complex than they generally are today, especially in America. It's difficult to maintain distinctions in race between different European nationalities when everyone's immigrating to the same place and having kids together, so over time these subtle distinctions have dropped off somewhat in favor of the simpler categories of "white" and "non-white." But some of these distinctions still remain, for instance, many people who identify as "white nationalists" or even "white supremacists" also hate Jews, including Jewish people with white skin. Hitler's infamous 14 words declare that a future must be secured "for our white children," yet clearly he did not consider white-skinned Jewish people to be included in that definition.
As absurd as it may be to say that someone can have white skin but not be considered white, it can happen. The reason it doesn't make sense is because race is, to a large degree, something that is socially constructed and nonsensical.
Racism is inherently vague, because race is made up. There are no differences in any way between a white and black person, or any other race.
Imagine considering Xi Jinping Winnie the Pooh memes to be racist, while simultaneously arguing that you can't be racist against white people.
And for good measure, considering the use of the word "crazy" to be an offensive term against the mentally ill.
Those things are crossing the line. But overt racism is fine as long as it's self-deprecating.
cry about it, cracker
Keep defending your racist users, Adolf.
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No one here is pro Russia lol. We just recognize that the war in Ukraine is an intractable meat grinder, and working for peace is more productive than continuing the conflict in an effort to further enrich War Contractors.
Woah woah woah, calm down there chief.
I have that same opinion having seen hexbear posts for the past 6 months. It's not invalid because it makes you upset.
"These two groups disagree with me, that means they must agree with each other!"