https://sh.itjust.works/post/4274675
To this I say, no. As a community, we do not deny proven genocides, like the holocaust, or the genocide against indigenous Americans by various European colonizers, or the genocide against the Congolese by Belgium, or the Bengal famine that was carried out by the British empire. In fact, denying those genocides will get you banned, here. However: we are also aware of a tendency of nations to project their crimes onto others, and to manufacture atrocity propaganda to justify overthrowing or destroying rival governments... like Libya in 2011:
From Washington Bullets by Vijay Prashad (a great book I highly recommend)
A post from Michael Parenti regarding the destruction of Libya by NATO-backed reactionaries
A headline shortly after Libya's destruction by NATO-backed reactionaries
The US government has been reenacting the fable of the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and has been cynically leveraging the very serious accusation of genocide against its geopolitical enemies. This is the source of skepticism on Xinjiang. And this is not a new strategy, yes, the Holodomor, which everyone in the US has been taught to take seriously lately, is a nazi fabrication first spread to the United States in the works of Robert Conquest. Why would the USSR deliberately starve a fellow socialist Republic? Why would Stalin, a Georgian, have some kind of Russian chauvinist grudge against Ukrainians? Why would Lenin (Donbass), Stalin (Lviv), and Khruschev (Crimea) all expand the territory of the Ukrainian SSR while also trying to kill off the people inside of it? Why would the USSR ethnically cleanse Ukrainains while simultaneously sending food aid to the starving British colony in Bengal? Natural famines and crop failures were spun by the nazis into atrocity propaganda. Also, a state does not have to be perfect to be defended against false accuations. I think China is far from perfect, but the burden of proof is on the United States to prove its accusations (which have changed in scope several times) regarding Xinjiang. Delegations from Muslim majority nations visiting Xinjiang do not agree with the United States that there is a genocide of the Uyghur people. There is however an attempt to reeducate extremist groups like ETIM. Reeducating extremists might seem a harsh government policy, but I assure you it is a better way of dealing with religious fundamentalism than drone striking weddings or air striking hospitals like the USA did in Afghanistan.
It’s funny seeing Hexbears not understand how lemmy works. It’s hilarious seeing them angry over dissent.
I wonder if they even know that the developer of lemmy, dessalines, is a communist who releases communist audiobooks on their youtube channel and did an AMA on here
If libs paid attention to where their treats were coming from they wouldn't be libs anymore
it's actually from lemmygrad. don't really care about hexbear. you can insult me as much as you want, my comrade, makes no difference to me.
In this thread users are calling me racist.
you can drop that whole holier-than-thou bullshit lol
You are a racist anti-Chinese bigot who has not taken the time to educated themselves on the stuff they speak on to even a morsel of a degree. Go back to your ducking Fox News with this bullshjt
Famously the most disrespectful thing you can do is accuse someone of racism, which happens everyday to innocent people for no reason. The smartest reaction, as we all know, is to keep vocally deflecting it and acting like you've been insulted.
The lord's day of rest. Naughty person. Go say a bunch of hail marys or something.
..And im alternating between drafting a webcomic, worldbuilding for a personal project, daily lifting, and studying for upcoming CompSci classes. Volunteered at a soup kitchen yesterday. Still have time to Post. Surely you've got something to do.
Then take the hint dipshit and fuck off back to the fash hole you crawled out of
Not a difficult concept to grasp even for social losers like you :)
I sometimes worry that I always start my comments in really similar ways and tend to use the same 3 or 4 kind of "templates" when talking. But these guys make me feel more original.
Yeah, they seem to think being smart or knowledgeable is an attitude, not a skill that needs to be worked on, that if they are just smug or arrogant enough, like their favourite "smart" character in a tv show, then they'll automatically be smart without effort.
Just going to throw out that the tankies at the... uhhh... US STATE DEPARTMENT have also said officially that there isn't evidence for genocide in Xinjiang: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/
If anyone calls you a genocide denier, throw out this one and see out they respond.
They won't. I can't get the fuckers to read the UN report, either. And good luck getting them to look in to any information on the 1932 famine that doesn't come directly from Himmler of the OUN-B.
I remember one guy who posted the UN report as proof of genocide but the report itself didn't say anything related to genocide.
I think sources are actually for trying to get people to exit the conversation, not actually assessing the continuity of evidence and argument.
the tankies at the... uhhh... US STATE DEPARTMENT
🤔 well come to think of it they did roll M1 Abrams into Iraq
I did find a type of guy who defined tankies as anyone who does wars that harm civilians in any way. Pure vibes.
The way that Rome conducted war is ironically a lot like how westerners believe the Soviet Union did. But the Romans are percieved as some kind of elite superforce who beat their enemies in 10-1 fights rather than simply having more soldiers in the vast amount of wars.
Yeah Romans really just were very good at mass producing bare minimum equipment and throwing massive amounts of men at problems. I remember reading something from Julius Caesar talking about how the German tribes had clearly superior armor but it was of no concern.
The trouble is that people look at a state and culture that lasted 2100 years in some form or other, and yet apply the same expectations to every part of their history.
Rome winning the Punic wars with an excess of manpower, and winning 10-1 engagements against vast gallic and Germanic armies were further away from each other than we are from the Napoleonic wars today.
It's mostly just an amalgamation of every reddit argument I've been in since libs learned the word "tankie"
I've already seen they say. To any lazy libs out there here are some canned responses
The genocide is real but:
- the US doesn't want to hinder trade relations with China
- it's happening all across China so it's less of a targeted thing and more of a general oppression thing
- China is super duper sneaky about it so we can't gather enough substantive evidence to bring to court
- there's some technicality that precludes it from being legally official even though it fits the common definition (that's the argument your link is going with)
That first one is the funniest to me and I've seen it a lot. Basically the lib just admits that the US doesn't actually care about human rights because it might impact trade. And somehow that means the US is the good guy. Because it values trade more than a claimed genocide.
Libs do not care about Muslims in China. Not one tiny bit. They only care about finding an enemy they can point their ire at so they don't have to look inward and see their own crimes.
Literally just the other day saw a video of like dozens of uighur kids running around the city in kashgar. If an active genocide was happening how on earth would the parents think it's safe for so many of their kids to run around unsupervised outside?
Also one of the kids invited the camera lady to their house and their place was both nicer than the camera lady's and my own place lol, I felt a degree of jealousy
I have a friend who is Jewish and lived in Berlin 1944. Her mother has a famous actress with political connections, her family was discriminated against but not shipped off to camps.
Anti China Uighur stuff is racist bullshit, but seeing kids outside would not disapprove a repressive government program targeting a single group.
The Berlin 1944 argument is not that good.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvvb7n02
With good connections you typically had ways to pass as being non Jewish in public life (or till you were assigned another status). All people over 15 had to have IDs, for Jewish kids this was often the case even when they were younger than 15. So open play by Jewish kids was virtually non existent in 1944 in Berlin.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/berlin
Beginning in 1942, Jews were deported from Berlin directly to the killing centers, primarily to Auschwitz-Birkenau. In 1943, most of the staff of the Reich Association of Jews in Germany, the central Jewish representative organization, was deported to Theresienstadt. All Jewish organizations and offices were disbanded. The majority of the remaining Jews in Berlin were deported by the end of April 1943.
More than 60,000 Jews were deported from Berlin:
more than 10,000 to the ghettos in eastern Europe about 15,000 to Theresienstadt and more than 35,000 to the killing centers in occupied Poland.
Hundreds of Jews committed suicide rather than submit to the deportations. Thousands of Jews remained in Berlin, mostly those who had gone into hiding and also part-Jews and Jews with a non-Jewish spouse, who were initially excluded from deportation. Almost all of those deported were killed.
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/untergetaucht-in-berlin-wir-waren-freiwild-3597964.html
Von über 5000 Juden, die in Berlin nach 1939 in den Untergrund gingen, überlebten nur 1800, darunter die Familie Segal. Der Aufwand, den sie betrieb, ist herausragend – und zugleich exemplarisch.
Out of 5000 Jews who lived in Berlin after 1939 in the underground only 1800 survived
China is super duper sneaky about it so we can't gather enough substantive evidence to bring to court
Everyone has seen horrific images of the Holocaust. Imagine how much evidence we would have of it if it happened in a time with spy satellites that can read a license plate and smartphones in everyone's pocket.
Legit had a liberal, when presented with the fact that the RAND corporation (the organisation that blurs the line between a US government agency and a private organisation which essentially set war policy in the Vietnam war for having kill counts as a metric for determining "success" in Vietnam, amongst other things) had released a paper that basically said that if the US wants to cripple the Chinese economy then what they'd need to do is to initiate a limited military conflict in the South China Sea within the next few years to disrupt the shipping lanes which China is largely dependent upon for foreign trade (before the Belt & Road Initiative gets away from the US and closes this window.)
The outcome, they determined, would be significantly more damaging to the Chinese economy than it would be to the US economy.
I stated that this has been around for some time now and it's not a coincidence that the US is clamouring for war in the SCS and escalating in that region as much as possible without actually firing shots (yet).
What did the lib do?
You guessed it! It was obviously Sissypee tankie propaganda. From the RAND corporation.
I wish I had a fraction of the confidence of these shit-tier libs on the internet have because goddamn, the absolute balls to make the bald-faced claim that a corporation which would have extremely high US security clearance requirements and which has been directly influential over US policy for three quarters of a century is somehow now churning out pro-Chinese propaganda without anyone noticing or making a fuss over it.
It's absolutely ridiculous the degree of information and knowledge that we are expected to bring to bear in a discussion and, upon presenting this info, the libs can summarily dismiss it for going against their narrative as Chinese propaganda (or tankie propaganda etc.) and they do it with zero evidence and zero familiarity with something like the RAND corporation's history and function.
You'd legit get a military officer to burst out in laughter if you claimed that the RAND corporation was an arm of the CPC in front of them. And that's a bad thing because I wish all US military a very unpleasant experience.
It's absolutely ridiculous the degree of information and knowledge that we are expected to bring to bear in a discussion and, upon presenting this info, the libs can summarily dismiss it for going against their narrative as Chinese propaganda
Not to get too into the "is federation good?" topic in every thread, but it is able push back against this dynamic to an extent.
If you argue against western propaganda on reddit, the libs usually far outnumber you. They feel reassured by this local superiority, and readers without a firm position can easily interpret the exchange as one crazy tankie arguing with a bunch of sensible, moderate progressives. And of course if you thread the needle just right and get some traction the mods will just nuke the thread.
Here, libs have to argue on equal footing or worse. We usually outnumber them. And thus far across instances we're federated with you don't have too many mod removals of threads just because they successfully challenge the prevailing western narrative.
I like RAND corp documents, they are openly arguing for and against things which some people think are "unthinkable". Then they print those up and distribute them in the typical US think tanks and places of governing power as well as archives (which is were I get them from mostly).
hey, I wanted to read the RAND doc, so I googled it and there seemed to be a few of them, do you have a link to the one you're talking about?
It's been a while since I've read it but it's titled "War with China: Thinking Through the Unthinkable" (lol)
When you consider the actions that have been taken since this paper was published, there have been two major developments that stand out (aside from the obvious military buildups and sabre-rattling):
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The US attempt at a virtual blockade of high-end semiconductors to China. I believe that this was the US trying to hamper the Chinese military capacity - no chips, no tech. No tech, no cutting edge military capacity.
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The recent AUKUS alliance which features tight cooperation in the development of hypersonic missiles and counter-hypersonic tech as well as Australia building 8 nuclear powered submarines. It's hard to imagine a scenario where this isn't an attempt to tip the scales in the favour of the US in a situation of conflict in the South China Sea.
The more conspiracy-minded among us would see that Australia having access to highly-enriched uranium to fuel the submarines, its recent moves to expand its missile capacity to ones which can be armed with nuclear warheads, and its expansion of its airforce base to house up to six nuclear-capable B52 bombers would be laying all of the foundations necessary for Australia to be a turnkey nuclear state, making it (hypothetically) possible for Australia to have nuclear strike capabilities in a very rapid turnaround time especially in a situation, say, where war broke out in the Pacific for some unforseen reason.
All that Australia would likely need to do would be to pass some emergency measures through parliament and to get the blessings of the US and some tech transfer but all of the difficult aspects of sourcing the hardware, housing it, and having access to a nuclear payload would have already been put into place by this point so it'd be more or less a matter of simply assembling the parts.
It's crazy-making seeing this shit playing out before my eyes.
I'm not a military analyst or some specialist consultant or anything but... you don't need to be a genuis or to have some special insider knowledge to be able see what's going on. I've been waiting for a Gulf of Tokin incident to occur in the South China Sea for years now. It's not any accident that the US has been conducting "freedom of navigation" expeditions right off the coast of China and between the Taiwanese strait on a consistent basis in recent years.
I suppose that I should put a disclaimer on that RAND report because it was published almost a decade ago now so while the conclusions that it draws, speculative as they may be, they're also not as up-to-date as the more recent stuff so don't treat it as gospel. Although that being said, the broad brushstrokes would still be applicable at the very least.
shit this is terrifying lol, it's your fault if my dreams suck tonight! anyway thanks lol, and yeah I'll keep in mind it's a decade old
Yeah... sorry about that 😬
It's a bit of a blackpill to look into this stuff. But on the other hand, I'm just some internet stranger who is far from being an expert (I even said as much just before) so it could just be
style rambling from an absolute crackpot. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened on the internet lol.
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I don't think this is actually a particularly good suggestion. It's too easy to dodge with "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". It doesn't matter if they lack evidence of presence, because they're not trying to be objective, they're trying to be superior.
Sure, but then they're just arguing from a pseudo religous position of "well you can't prove it's not happening", which is a very weak one
Absolutely, but the people hurling accusations don't care about the strength of arguments. They're not even necessarily trying to make an argument (in the logical sense). Tossing back a document that says "genocide is hard to prove" isn't going to win them over. It's more likely to make them double down. And that strikes me as a mistake.
There's also the problem that to people who rightfully abhor it, any action that appears to be rules-lawyering genocide is almost certain to be rejected, turning away any audience that might have been receptive to a counter-narrative.
That just leaves commenters who already agree, and when they join in, Hexbear is 'brigading with denialist propaganda', which feeds into the chuds' sense of righteousness when they harrass us.
Something this contentious needs time and a degree of receptivity, neither of which is provided by 'throwing out' some bombshell of evidence.
What fraction of lurkers do you think are won over by 'Nuh-uh, it's not technically genocide'? Not many, I'd bet.
I'm well aware of the performative aspects of online discussion. It is exactly that performance that I'm criticizing. As I said before, rules-lawyering genocide is not a good look. And giving the opponent an easy out allows them to steal the show.
420blazeit69 has provided a better lead-in:—
Genocide is a crime, and to prove a crime occurred you have to come up with evidence.
which might then be followed by the reminder that a motivated US State department wasn't able to do that—not even with all the efforts of a Nazi apologist. With additional detail, that would be somewhat more persuasive than simply "[throwing it out and seeing how they respond]". It at least returns the burden of justification, although I still think there are better spectator sports to play.
Genocide is a crime, and to prove a crime occurred you have to come up with evidence.
Throw that rules-based international order nonsense back in their face.
"General purpose" instances are something else. Someone claimed that during the Tiananmen protests PLA tanks intentionally ran over students. When I pressed for evidence I was banned by the lemmyshitpost mod for denying genocide. Tiananmen "massacre" is a genocide now too. The Chinese are geniciding themselves.
As an American, comparing us to barbarians is unfair to barbarians. They aren't as uncivilized as us
Lol. Lmao. lmfaoroflscreamingintothevoid.
No one has ever quite been able to explain why the Ukrainian communist officials in the Ukrainian SSR were intent on genociding Ukrainians, either. not even a "Well they were brainwashed by communism!" Just... pure vibes.
I feel like this connects back to the liberal need to erase anyone left of them, because otherwise they can't pretend to be the good guys
also this:
The kitten-burners seem to fulfill some urgent need. They give us someone we can clearly and correctly say we’re better than. Their extravagant cruelty makes us feel better about ourselves because we know that we would never do what they have done. They thus function as signposts of depravity, reassuring the rest of us that we’re Not As Bad As them, and thus letting us tell ourselves that this is the same thing as us being good.
from https://redsails.org/false-witnesses/
That article got really sad towards the end. Wasn't expecting to feel sorry for evangelicals ):
Its this.
Actually hearing from people to the left of them forces them to grapple with the idea that they aren't benevolent humanitarian they're just slightly less racist imperialists.
Reddit was perfect from them because it banned anybody who would critique them from the left so they literally thought they were "as progressive as they come"
https://sh.itjust.works/post/4274675
Of course their community image is a fucking racist caricature lol
noooooooo you don't understand, it's not racist, it's just making fun of xi jinping because he got really mad and banned winnie the pooh. "source?" what do you mean "source?"
I can trawl Shanghai Disney world for like millions of Winnie the Pooh pics they literally are just parrots
the real crime is that china allows d*sney to exist inside its borders at all
Even Stephen Kotkin (the lib), who is a highly esteemed academic historian (professor at Princeton), said what happened in Ukraine in the 30s wasn't genocide in his Stalin biography. The only revisionism that's happening here is libs pretending that there is a consensus about calling it a genocide among academic historians.
All of these actions were woefully insufficient for avoiding the mass starvation in the countryside caused by his policies, in the face of challenging natural conditions. Still, these actions do not indicate that he was trying to exterminate peasants or ethnic Ukrainians.
Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 by Stephen Kotkin published in October 2017 by Penguin Random House
Here's Mark Tauger's takedown of Applebaum's Holodomor book:
Some might ask whether Applebaum’s writing is more accessible to “non-specialist” readers. There are many excellent writers among Slavic specialists, and a more accurate account could easily have been presented in clear and simple language. Applebaum’s writing does not “simplify” the truth, it obscures it, as discussed in this review. Red Famine thus does not fit well in the existing scholarly literature, even as “popular history.” Its interpretation resembles that of Conquest’s Harvest of Sorrow, and it does use recent published sources that provide vivid descriptions of many people’s experiences in the famine. But it leaves out too much important information, has false claims on key points, and draws unjustified conclusions on important issues based on incomplete use of sources, making it not even close to the level of genuine scholarship, like Davies and Wheatcroft’s Years of Hunger. Red Famine is better characterized by a passage from Peter Kenez’s book on The Birth of the Propaganda State: “propaganda often means telling less than the truth, misleading people … manipulating and distorting information, lying” and addresses “audiences in simple language…”
Even Robert Conquest amended his position after the release of the Soviet archives that the Soviet famine of the 1930s wasn't genocide.
Who cares about academic historians? A bunch of woke nerds if you ask me. The EU parliament voted that the Holodomor was real and a genocide so anyone who says otherwise is denying genocide and spreading misinformation.
It's fucking sickening that tankies will deny the well-documented fact that Stalin ate all the grain in Ukraine with his giant spoon
it's outrageous. some of them even deny that Iraq had WMDs in 2003 and claim the US invasion was a lie!!!111!
Another tankie denying the existence of the giant spoon
What's left out, conveniently, is that the Soviets during the period were under economic siege (when weren't they?) And were denied by the western imperialists to purchase goods from their markets in any form of monetary exchange, be that by currency or rare metals such as gold. The payment requested by western powers for their goods was in fact in the form of raw materials such as grain, lumber, ores, etc.
Edit: also
The chud bible:
- Horseshoe theory
- Double genocide theory
- The black book of communism
- Whataboutism
Why would the USSR deliberately starve a fellow socialist Republic? Why would Stalin, a Georgian, have some kind of Russian chauvinist grudge against Ukrainians? Why would Lenin (Donbass), Stalin (Lviv), and Khruschev (Crimea) all expand the territory of the Ukrainian SSR while also trying to kill off the people inside of it?
My key question: Why would Stalin stop? If the Holodomor was a deliberate attempt to genocide the Ukrainian people, it would be to my knowledge the only genocide in the history of the world where the perpetrator just randomly decided to stop the genocidal actions and never again make any attempt to restart it for the next 30 years of his life.
There are opportunistic genocides around famines (not in this case, of course) where the attempt is taken because it is easy and not pursued further when it is difficult. Britain did this multiple times around the world.
Make sure you remind the liberals that the Soviet “joint invasion” of Poland that they bitch and cry about is what gave Ukraine the entire western half of their country.
Xinjiang and Ukraine (both past and present) mainly
Because as we all know, Genocide is when other countries do things that the West doesn't like
Whereas if Ukrainians are systemically oppressing and killing the Russian-speaking minority in the East, that's just protecting themselves and their national identity, which is good
if liberals cared about genocide they'd be mad at israel
Honestly the SJW fucks can go die crushed by the bridge their NATO overlords sold them
i'm just gonna call them shitjustworks so people don't dig through my post history later on and mistake me as complaining about "social justice warriors" lol
Acording to peepee we poopoo
Like half of the posts in this site in recent times
in every post
