Oh God, oh shit, I said I wasn't going to do it. I said I wasn't going to start a China struggle session. Already getting flashbacks to the Discord.

But something just doesn't sit right with me and wanted to get some clarification here...

My question is this: why does China ban labor organizing/unions?

Is this yikes/intentional/actually a good thing?

(Yeah, I do know that labor unions are not always unequivocally good and sometimes they act more like middle management than as representatives of the workers... but democratizing the workplace seems like a no-brainer for any socialist project.)

Thoughts?

    • fusion513 [none/use name]
      1·
      4 years ago

      Thanks! It does seem like China's approach to unions is heavily influenced by the USSR's.

    • Shinji_Ikari [he/him]
      1·
      4 years ago

      Its honestly an interesting topic. Ie the marshal law in poland in the early 80s. Trade unions did a general strike to protest the communist government due to their bowing down to the US and IMF which lead to austerity and industries basically collapsing. It was an example of the communist state failing to block imperialism and an overall failure to maintain order. There was no good state actor in that situation and is an obvious sign of the late failings of the USSR, especially in regard to regional control outside of Russian boarders.

    • jmichigan_frog [he/him]
      2·
      4 years ago

      Good answer. Whether or not China is actually socialist, actual socialism has the best chance of emerging in a country with a massive working class where Marxism isn't demonized--and one that is able to resist imperialist incursion. There is absolutely a class struggle going on in China rn, one that might decide the future of the planet. (edited for grammar)

    • anthm17 [he/him]
      21·
      4 years ago

      It's a literal dictatorship of the bourgeois.

      historically capital will use any wedge it can to destroy a country that tries to defy their interests.

      Which is not and never will be china.

        • Fear_and_loading [none/use name]
          14·
          4 years ago

          They're super integrated in the global marketplace and their entire foreign policy is expansion into more markets m8

          • TheaJo [she/her,comrade/them]
            12·
            4 years ago

            i will say that yes, china can be capitalist and they do have a powerful bourgeoisie, but remember the interests of capital is to prevent them from developing their own tech, diplomacy networks and the like, which is absolutely what they are doing

            • anthm17 [he/him]
              15·
              4 years ago

              lol capital just wants to make money.

              They do not give a shit about the espoused ideology of China as long as they are allowed unfettered access and the ability to exploit their way to billions. They are.

                • anthm17 [he/him]
                  8·
                  4 years ago

                  They couped keynesian capitalists in the third world a bunch of times

                  their enforcement arms like the CIA absolutely care about ideology, to the degree that they think it will be acted on. And their imaginations are pretty wild, you don’t get to work at a place like that if you’re not a paranoid anticommunist.

                  That's true, but I think they didn't do it because they know they would lose.

                  Doing a coup against Allende or Sakarto after you spent years making inroads with the army (and/or have the support of the wealthy elite) is a lot different than trying to displace a government that just won a civil war and has the backing of the people's army.

                  Plus in the end it's a lot easier to win by just sitting back once the revisionists take power.

                • Pezevenk [he/him]
                  5·
                  4 years ago

                  Also, we’re not having this conversation about Vietnam, which has the same system? Only official US enemies?

                  Vietnam, famous historical ally of the US.

                    • Pezevenk [he/him]
                      2·
                      4 years ago

                      Yeah but would you rather American leftists endlessly complained about Vietnam?

                      Also there is more reason to Vietnam's stance than just the US. Namely China's recent foreign policy against Vietnam.

                    • KiaKaha [he/him]
                      1·
                      4 years ago

                      Can we complain about VN a bit though? My understanding is that they’ve privatised way more, and opened up to foreign capital way more than China has.

                • anthm17 [he/him]
                  8·
                  4 years ago

                  Capitalists in America flip their shit over and any regulation at all.

                  Do they not have access either?